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Old August 28th, 2014, 11:00 PM   #241
Sunfuns
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Originally Posted by elekto View Post
I agree although is only to give us an idea of what you said.

In any case chinese costs are way lower than any other competitor, just as an example, Alstom average €23 million per km, thats unaffordable for a country like Mexico.
French labour, French land acquisitions costs etc. If Alstom end up bidding for it alone or in a consortium I bet the price will be closer to 10 million per km (similar to Spanish prices).

Chinese would be unbeatable if you allow them to build it with Chinese labour. That's kind of a "banana republic" style though and has numerous long term drawbacks.
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Old August 28th, 2014, 11:52 PM   #242
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French labour, French land acquisitions costs etc. If Alstom end up bidding for it alone or in a consortium I bet the price will be closer to 10 million per km (similar to Spanish prices).

Chinese would be unbeatable if you allow them to build it with Chinese labour. That's kind of a "banana republic" style though and has numerous long term drawbacks.
I hope so, btw spanish and french have been very quiet as well as japanese.

I know germans will do the try, they will try to match the chinese with a good enough offer, they know that in emerging countries will be difficult to compete with such 1st world prices.
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Old August 29th, 2014, 12:01 AM   #243
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French are currently building in Morocco and Spanish in Saudi Arabia. Don't know what the costs are for them there, but they do have experience of doing it outside the home market.
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Old August 29th, 2014, 05:22 PM   #244
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French are currently building in Morocco and Spanish in Saudi Arabia. Don't know what the costs are for them there, but they do have experience of doing it outside the home market.
In Morocco the expected cost is around $7 million per km, maybe because is all flat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tangier...peed_rail_line

In Saudi Arabia around $20 million per km, maybe because is all luxury.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haramai...d_Rail_Project

Last edited by elekto; August 29th, 2014 at 05:29 PM.
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Old August 29th, 2014, 08:30 PM   #245
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$7 million per km is very cheap, probably will be a bit more in Mexico due to labor costs and a bit more challenging geography.

Saudi's probably care about price a bit less and are going for all the premium stuff. I've heard though that protection against sandstorms and extreme heat is a significant cost driver.
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Old August 30th, 2014, 12:08 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
$7 million per km is very cheap, probably will be a bit more in Mexico due to labor costs and a bit more challenging geography.

Saudi's probably care about price a bit less and are going for all the premium stuff. I've heard though that protection against sandstorms and extreme heat is a significant cost driver.
Sunfuns, I don't know if you have been in western Saudi Arabia, but I have. It's not the kind of "gentle dessert" that you have in the western Sahara. - It's dessert, for sure, but consisting of barren mountains sticking up like jagged teeth. Here's a sample: http://nidalm.com/blog/travelography...ins-of-makkah/. No doubt that's part of the reason for the construction costs.

As for the French being "competitive" because they made it to Morocco, well... don't make me smirk. There's a tiny little post-colonial link there. Plus, project finance and other sweeteners were put on offer. I don't think that anybody OTHER than the French could have got their foot in that particular door.

Last edited by hans280; September 2nd, 2014 at 04:12 PM.
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Old August 31st, 2014, 06:36 PM   #247
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Sunfuns, I don't know if you have been in eastern Saudi Arabia, but I have. It's not the kind of "gentle dessert" that you have in the western Sahara. - It's dessert, for sure, but consisting of barren mountains sticking up like jagged teeth. Here's a sample: http://nidalm.com/blog/travelography...ins-of-makkah/. No doubt that's part of the reason for the construction costs.

As for the French being "competitive" because they made it to Morocco, well... don't make me smirk. There's a tiny little post-colonial link there. Plus, project finance and other sweeteners were put on offer. I don't think that any body OTHER than the French could have got their foot in that particular door.
so, do you believe the french can make a good bid to Mexico?

Im also surprised of such cheap cost in Morocco, never seen Alstom that low.

Last edited by elekto; August 31st, 2014 at 08:19 PM.
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Old September 4th, 2014, 01:21 AM   #248
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The first clarification meeting took place last Monday, the next will be on Monday, September 8.
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Old September 5th, 2014, 02:35 AM   #249
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Seems next month we will have a date for the Transpeninsular Train TT HSR tender.

Last edited by elekto; September 5th, 2014 at 02:53 AM.
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Old September 5th, 2014, 03:37 AM   #250
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Old September 5th, 2014, 07:16 AM   #251
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Mexico should take heed with the experience of other countries who took the lowball bid, namely the Philippines with the Northrail Project (cancelled) and the Turkey HSR project (numerous delays and teething problems).
Dont know anything about Philippines but about Turkey, I know. The delays have absolutely nothing to do with "cost" of the projects.
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Old September 5th, 2014, 11:06 AM   #252
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Seems next month we will have a date for the Transpeninsular Train TT HSR tender.
Sorry, i haven't followed this thread much, but I thought there was nothing official regarding this project? The reason why I say that its because it wasn't announced in Peña Nieto's event yesterday.

so is it safe to say that this project is alive?
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Old September 5th, 2014, 08:14 PM   #253
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Sorry, i haven't followed this thread much, but I thought there was nothing official regarding this project? The reason why I say that its because it wasn't announced in Peña Nieto's event yesterday.

so is it safe to say that this project is alive?
Yes the TT HSR is alive, officially the environmental feasibility study was postponed since the route was changed. Instead of Punta Venado it was changed to Cancun as 2nd terminal.

A new environmental study is being developed right now contemplating the new route, maybe soon we will know if it was approved or not, probably next month.

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Old September 5th, 2014, 08:50 PM   #254
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Dont know anything about Philippines but about Turkey, I know. The delays have absolutely nothing to do with "cost" of the projects.
why the delays in Turkey?
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Old September 5th, 2014, 11:43 PM   #255
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first days of November winning bidder of MQ HSR

Audio (in spanish min 3:17)

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Old September 7th, 2014, 04:39 AM   #256
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pre-construction budget approved U$130 millions
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Old September 9th, 2014, 01:11 AM   #257
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today in the 2nd clarification meeting CARSO group and ICA in the same consortium.
Alstom in a different one, while IAMSA, CAF and Indra joins in a 3rd consortium.

so we have 2 fully conformed consortiums and 2 more to officialize.

1.-CRCC, Teya group, GIA
2.-CAF, Indra Systems, IAMSA group

Alstom to lead another.
CARSO group and ICA to confirm with Bombardier or Siemens.

Last edited by elekto; September 15th, 2014 at 06:18 PM.
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Old September 9th, 2014, 01:22 AM   #258
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why the delays in Turkey?
Turkey is a very polarized country politically right now. Partisans, who didn't want to current administration to benefit politically from these high speed rails, sabotaged some lines multiple times before the elections.

By the way most of Turkish lines are built by Chinese. However, Chinese are just subcontractors of the local Turkish companies who won the bids claiming the lines are built by themselves. You can see Chinese railroad builders working on the catenaries etc. It is quite bad for tax payer because this approach is, obviously, increasing the price compared to direct Chinese undertaking.
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Old September 9th, 2014, 02:06 AM   #259
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Turkey is a very polarized country politically right now. Partisans, who didn't want to current administration to benefit politically from these high speed rails, sabotaged some lines multiple times before the elections.

By the way most of Turkish lines are built by Chinese. However, Chinese are just subcontractors of the local Turkish companies who won the bids claiming the lines are built by themselves. You can see Chinese railroad builders working on the catenaries etc. It is quite bad for tax payer because this approach is, obviously, increasing the price compared to direct Chinese undertaking.
humm, mismanagement and political prioritization, bad formula for any project.

yeah it only makes it more expensive and bureaucratic, now I see.
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Old September 9th, 2014, 04:20 AM   #260
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IAMSA group
, of which ETN, VivaAerobus and TAP makes part, is seeking the concession for the operation of the high speed trains that will link Mexico City to Toluca and Queretaro, said its president Roberto Alcantara.
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