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Old October 16th, 2014, 05:13 PM   #461
elekto
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because of the design of the line and its geometry, the speed limit in some sections of the MQ HSR will be 300km/h although the average speed (which is the important one) will be around 210-216km/h.

the trains do not run all the time at max speed, is only in some parts of the route that they reach such speed.

as Gusiluz comments, in China even when the train can reach 380km/h the speed is limited to 300km/h due to economic and security feasibility.

but that is specific for the characteristics of the market and the route, because in the 2nd stage, there will be sections between Irapuato and Guadalajara where the speed limit will be up to 320km/h.


Last edited by elekto; October 16th, 2014 at 09:31 PM.
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Old October 16th, 2014, 05:17 PM   #462
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Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
Gusiluz, apologies for my ignorance but do we know if the average speed of 216 km/h measured from city centre to city centre, or is it assuming some suburban high-speed station in Queretaro? I ask because in the first case this is a truly amazing average speed. On the other hand, if it's between dedicated HS stations then several of the European countries remain competitive.
it is from city centre to city centre, no suburban station.
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Old October 16th, 2014, 06:02 PM   #463
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it is from city centre to city centre, no suburban station.
I thought the station in Queretaro is no way in the city center...
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Old October 16th, 2014, 07:18 PM   #464
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
Gusiluz, apologies for my ignorance but do we know if the average speed of 216 km/h measured from city centre to city centre, or is it assuming some suburban high-speed station in Queretaro? I ask because in the first case this is a truly amazing average speed. On the other hand, if it's between dedicated HS stations then several of the European countries remain competitive.
These averages are the best country, station to station (stopping), and sometimes picturesque places. Linking the main stations, especially in Germany and Italy, are worse. Japanese, Spanish, French and Chinese (in that order) are better, reaching 284 km/h Shijiazhuang-Zhengzhou, with a top speed of only 300, but is passed until 310.
.............................
Esos promedios son los mejores de cada país estación a estación (con parada), y a veces son lugares pintorescos. Los que unen estaciones principales, sobre todo en Alemania e Italia, son peores. Los japoneses, franceses, españoles y chinos (en ese orden) son mejores, hasta llegar a los 284 km/h de Shijiazhuang-Zhengzhou, con una velocidad máxima de solo 300, aunque es sobrepasada hasta 310.
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Old October 16th, 2014, 07:57 PM   #465
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Originally Posted by Klausenburg View Post
I thought the station in Queretaro is no way in the city center...
is way inside the city, thou not the geographical center... it could be better located but is difficult to find a place with such characteristics, for example, the place is already federal property and has already railways rights.



As you can see is right beside the 2 main highways of the city, so is perfect to distribute the people.
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Old October 16th, 2014, 08:15 PM   #466
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@Gusiluz,

what happened with the Oaris? CAF said is not yet homologated and that is why they desisted their bid. I imagined this could happen because is extremely new model, is a shame, that train has a lot of future.
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Old October 16th, 2014, 08:41 PM   #467
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Prototype testing began in September 2011, but certainly the lack of expectations that Renfe to buy it made ​​the tests were not comprehensive enough. Now Renfe says it will buy trains for 2017, so we can get serious. The Brazilian was postponed, but neither were prepared despite having a strong presence there.
Shame.
..................................
El prototipo empezó las pruebas en septiembre de 2011, pero sin duda, la falta de expectativas de que Renfe lo comprase hizo que las pruebas no fuesen lo suficientemente amplias. Ahora Renfe dice que va a comprar trenes para 2017, así que ya pueden ponerse en serio. Lo de Brasil se aplazó, pero tampoco estaban preparados a pesar de que tienen mucha presencia allí.
Una pena.
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Old October 16th, 2014, 09:03 PM   #468
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how is that, they are bidding in Brazil? ain't Talgo the bidder in Brazil?
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Old October 16th, 2014, 09:31 PM   #469
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Bidding in Brazil for what?
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Old October 16th, 2014, 09:41 PM   #470
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GdlMty View Post
If the average speed of this train in China is 380 k/h, why in Mexico can not be like that too?
Max trainset speed and average trip speed are very different things.

The trainset's maximum speed is the maximum velocity that train can achieve, assuming the track and trip allow it to reach that speed. That is not always the case.

The average trip speed is the average speed the train attains throughout the entire journey. You have to take into account the time it takes to accelerate to the maximum trip speed, the deceleration before stops, the characteristics of the track which allow/disallow certain speeds, etc.
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Old October 16th, 2014, 09:42 PM   #471
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There's nothing happening in Brazil...
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Old October 16th, 2014, 10:14 PM   #472
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There's nothing happening in Brazil...
Brazil may not be building any high speed rail but are building tons of infrastructure projects across the country. Nearly every major city in Brazil has some form of heavy rail subway under construction or in planning.

Mexico on the other hand is very behind in this regard. The city of Puebla, with 2.6 million people, is overdue for a subway and yet there is nothing being planned. There is definitely a lack of forsight in Mexico's major urban centers apart from the big three (df, guadalajara and monterrey). This is not a problem in Brazil.

Last edited by Bronxwood; October 16th, 2014 at 10:22 PM.
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Old October 16th, 2014, 10:41 PM   #473
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bronxwood View Post
Brazil may not be building any high speed rail but are building tons of infrastructure projects across the country. Nearly every major city in Brazil has some form of heavy rail subway under construction or in planning.

Mexico on the other hand is very behind in this regard. The city of Puebla, with 2.6 million people, is overdue for a subway and yet there is nothing being planned. There is definitely a lack of forsight in Mexico's major urban centers apart from the big three (df, guadalajara and monterrey). This is not a problem in Brazil.
That's an advantage. Mexico can now start to build its new infrastructure from scratch, adding state-of-the-art and cutting edge technologies without the limitations of an slow and obsolete railway network.
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Old October 16th, 2014, 11:08 PM   #474
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You mean like the obsolete metro line 12 of mexico city?

Brazilian cities understand the need for true mass transit to help aleviate congestion and improve quality of life. I believe Mexican Cities have already conformed themselves with bus rapid transit for the most part. Something is something, i suppose.
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Old October 16th, 2014, 11:19 PM   #475
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bronxwood View Post
You mean like the obsolete metro line 12 of mexico city?

Brazilian cities understand the need for true mass transit to help aleviate congestion and improve quality of life. I believe Mexican Cities have already conformed themselves with bus rapid transit for the most part. Something is something, i suppose.
dude, if you have something to say related HSR in Brazil youre welcome, but if youre here only to trolling it will be better that we call a moderator. we are not guilty your government promised you a HSR only to win votes.

Infrastructura ranking 2014 World Bank

Infrastructure World Economic Forum 2014-2015 (page 33)
Quote:
Mexico: reasonably good transport
infrastructure (41st)
Quote:
Brazil: insufficient progress
in addressing its persistent transport infrastructure
weaknesses (77th)
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Last edited by elekto; October 16th, 2014 at 11:35 PM.
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Old October 16th, 2014, 11:42 PM   #476
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First off, im happy for your country in taking a huge step in committing to hsr. That is fantastic and hopefully this will spark an true interest in rail based transport in smaller mexican cities. But the disrespect towards other countries, in this case brasil, needs to stop. Totally unwarranted and just asking for trouble.

As for your last sentence, well, i personally dont care for high speed rail in brazil. It's not a priority. I prefer the current method of building rail throughout all of brazilian cities than just one expensive line connecting two cities. To each their own.
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Old October 16th, 2014, 11:44 PM   #477
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Brazil HSR Campinas-Sao Paulo-Rio de Janeiro

First introduced Renfe-ADIF-Talgo (like Saudi), but CAF protested and, since it had market in Brazil, the government agreed and requested an adjournment to submit two applications: one with Talgo S-112 and another with CAF-Oaris .
In August 2013 the Brazilian government postponed at least a year, and not notice again hear talk about it.
Recently, according to El Economista:
Promotion not lead supply in Mexico the Spanish AVE Brazil after the failure of "irreconcilable differences between Talgo and CAF made ​​it impossible for this proposal and each ended up making war on his own, something that did not sit well with the Ministry."

More over Brasil HSR (in spanish).
if there is a specific question I will answer with pleasure
..............................................
Primero se presentó Renfe-Adif-Talgo (igual que Arabia), pero CAF protestó y, puesto que tenía mercado en Brasil, el gobierno accedió y solicitó un aplazamiento para presentar dos candidaturas: una con Talgo S-112 y otra con CAF-Oaris.
En agosto de 2013 el gobierno brasileño aplazó al menos un año la licitación y no se volvió a oir hablar del tema.
Recientemente, según El Economista:
Fomento no liderará la oferta en México del AVE español tras el fracaso de Brasil: "las diferencias irreconciliables entre Talgo y CAF hicieron imposible esta propuesta y cada uno acabó haciendo la guerra por su cuenta, algo que no sentó nada bien en el Ministerio".
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Old October 16th, 2014, 11:45 PM   #478
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bronxwood View Post
First off, im happy for your country in taking a huge step in committing to hsr. That is fantastic and hopefully this will spark an true interest in rail based transport in smaller mexican cities. But the disrespect towards other countries, in this case brasil, needs to stop. Totally unwarranted and just asking for trouble.

As for your last sentence, well, i personally dont care for high speed rail in brazil. It's not a priority. I prefer the current method of building rail throughout all of brazilian cities than just one expensive line connecting two cities. To each their own.

guess what, there are many metro lines being built in Mexico right now also, simultaneously to the passenger railways, so we agree on that having good urban transportation system is necessary, so Mexico is not building HSR only and nothing else as you suggested.

we dont believe that is one thing for another, we do believe that we must to do all of them simultaneously.
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Old October 16th, 2014, 11:49 PM   #479
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gusiluz View Post
First introduced Renfe-ADIF-Talgo (like Saudi), but CAF protested and, since it had market in Brazil, the government agreed and requested an adjournment to submit two applications: one with Talgo S-112 and another with CAF-Oaris .
In August 2013 the Brazilian government postponed at least a year, and not notice again hear talk about it.
Recently, according to El Economista:
Promotion not lead supply in Mexico the Spanish AVE Brazil after the failure of "irreconcilable differences between Talgo and CAF made ​​it impossible for this proposal and each ended up making war on his own, something that did not sit well with the Ministry."

More over Brasil HSR (in spanish).
if there is a specific question I will answer with pleasure
..............................................
Primero se presentó Renfe-Adif-Talgo (igual que Arabia), pero CAF protestó y, puesto que tenía mercado en Brasil, el gobierno accedió y solicitó un aplazamiento para presentar dos candidaturas: una con Talgo S-112 y otra con CAF-Oaris.
En agosto de 2013 el gobierno brasileño aplazó al menos un año la licitación y no se volvió a oir hablar del tema.
Recientemente, según El Economista:
Fomento no liderará la oferta en México del AVE español tras el fracaso de Brasil: "las diferencias irreconciliables entre Talgo y CAF hicieron imposible esta propuesta y cada uno acabó haciendo la guerra por su cuenta, algo que no sentó nada bien en el Ministerio".
wow, this is really interesting, so part of the failure of the spanish biddings in Brazil and Mexico is due to internal disputes between CAF and Talgo.

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Old October 17th, 2014, 12:02 AM   #480
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Well, in Brazil there was no failure since the end there was no competition, but that influence to ADIF-RENFE Ministry no force in Mexico should not do, and that really was a failure.
For Saudi no problem because they demanded tested material.
In the link (and on the first page of the thread, but in Spanish) there are maps and information about the procedure, which was a concession for 40 years.
.............................
Bueno, en Brasil no hubo fracaso puesto que al final no hubo ninguna licitación, pero eso influyó para que Ministerio-Adif-Renfe no hiciesen fuerza en Mexico, y eso sí que fue un fracaso.
Para Arabia no había problema porque exigían material probado.
En el enlace (y en la primera página del Hilo, pero en español) hay mapas e información sobre el procedimiento, que era una concesión durante 40 años.
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