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Old October 17th, 2014, 07:14 PM   #501
elekto
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Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
Why do you keep saying that? It's just not true. In the table you yourself just posted the Spanish price is only marginally more than the Chinese one. Most likely the difference is merely more expensive labour costs.
yes only the spanish, that is why only the spanish bid had a chance but they desisted because their train is not ready, so there was no other option, believe me.

can you believe that even with the price that chinese proposed there are people bashing and saying is very expensive in Mexico? and Im talking about a huge sector of public opinion, even when the project is going to be financed and is absolutely pretty cheap and chinese are not going to make profit, because is only a strategic movement in order to develope prospective latin american markets, people here is crazy saying is stratospherical expensive.

imagine if we do with spanish or french or japanese, we have experience with them and they have never been affordable, never ever, maybe after this they will.
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Old October 17th, 2014, 07:27 PM   #502
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Originally Posted by elekto View Post
yes only the spanish, that is why only the spanish bid had a chance but they desisted because their train is not ready, so there was no other option, believe me.
Not sure about that either. That table only had 3 relevant numbers (2 Chinese and 1 Spanish). Data about all other comparable projects is missing... I'm not saying here that Chinese is a bad choice, it might be the best one. They want it badly and will build it with very little profit although we'll only know that for sure when the final price after the launch is calculated.

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can you believe that even with the price that chinese proposed there are people bashing and saying is very expensive in Mexico? and Im talking about a huge sector of public opinion, even when the project is going to be financed and is absolutely pretty cheap and chinese are not going to make profit, because is only a strategic movement in order to develope prospective latin american markets, people here is crazy saying is stratospherical expensive.
I can easily imagine people saying it, because the argument probably is not about the Chinese bid being too expensive but whether there is a need to spend the money on HSR at this time at all. Mexico is not yet a rich country and it could be argued that 3.5 billion would be better spent on some other project.
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Old October 17th, 2014, 08:06 PM   #503
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Bombardier, Alstom, Siemens, etc were just not prepare to give their project proposals. Well the Chinese have been working for over two years so they knew and kudos for them too and the will probably win the bid. Moreover, Mexico has been investing a lot of money on infrastructure, so hopefully after this project is done they can make a second phase. Even though, Mexico is not a develop country it is an economically big country.
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Old October 17th, 2014, 10:21 PM   #504
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I can easily imagine people saying it, because the argument probably is not about the Chinese bid being too expensive but whether there is a need to spend the money on HSR at this time at all. Mexico is not yet a rich country and it could be argued that 3.5 billion would be better spent on some other project.
not indeed and is funny because even with all the current problems, people do want the HSR, people here never ever argued that investing this money in other priorities is better, because in some way they know Mexico can.

they are complaining because the chinese proposal is higher than the $3.3 billions that SCT estimated at first.

but it is not only extremely cheap even with that increase, it is also super convenient with the financial scheme that chinese propose:

Quote:
China Exim-Bank will finance 85% of the project at 20 years at 0.38 rate.

This is independent of the fund created by the 3 chinese banks and 3 mexican banks of $3.5billions announced before.
remember that this cost includes the operation and maintenance for 5 years!






BREAKING NEWS


Quote:


The chinese-mexican consortium selected the french stated owned SNCF for the operation of the MQ HSR for 5 years.

Link
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Old October 17th, 2014, 10:53 PM   #505
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Originally Posted by Gatech12 View Post
Bombardier, Alstom, Siemens, etc were just not prepare to give their project proposals. Well the Chinese have been working for over two years so they knew and kudos for them too and the will probably win the bid. Moreover, Mexico has been investing a lot of money on infrastructure, so hopefully after this project is done they can make a second phase. Even though, Mexico is not a develop country it is an economically big country.
Mexico is not a poor country certainly is an emerging country just like Turkey or China and $3.8 billions is a ridiculous amount of money for this country, but people is ignorant thats all.

Anyways I do not believe that President Pea is going to visit China in November 12th, to tell them that Mexico didn't accept this bid
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Old October 17th, 2014, 11:10 PM   #506
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Now I got it! Pen~a will visit China in November to make of this an official announcement!
Everything has been set up...
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Old October 18th, 2014, 10:49 AM   #507
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Finally, Siemens has made a declaration:

Quote:
Siemens still eyes Mexico rail projects after skipping tender

German engineering group Siemens AG still plans to bid on a series of upcoming passenger rail projects in Mexico worth billions of dollars in spite of skipping a lucrative high-speed passenger train tender this week.

Siemens opted out of the tender that only received one bidder in what Markus Mildner, Siemens' executive vice president of infrastructure and cities in Mexico, dubbed "a disappointment."

"The disappointment is the time that was given for the tender," Mildner said, calling it the "Champions League" of rail projects. "It was short."
The Chinese consortium has not necessarily won the tender. If the proposal does not meet the requirements, the bidding process could start again.

Siemens plans to bid on various upcoming projects like a passenger train linking Mexico City and Toluca, and several subway plans.

"There's lot more projects coming," he said. "We'll keep on bidding."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...0SC1K320141017
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Last edited by Donegal; October 18th, 2014 at 10:56 AM.
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Old October 18th, 2014, 01:03 PM   #508
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Quote:
"There's lot more projects coming...We'll keep on bidding."
Nothing to add...
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Old October 18th, 2014, 06:34 PM   #509
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There is the tender of the Transpeninsular HST and the Mexico-Toluca Intercity, there won't be chinese there and SCT already acceded to delay the presentation of bids in the case of MT Intercity, so we will see if this companies are serious or are only boycotting Mexico.

btw next October 31st is the deadline for the bids of the MT Intercity, this tender is belated by several months and the Transpeninsular will have its tender in January 2015, so don't say you're not ready and know nothing.

About the MQ HSR, I know by serious sources that, if the chinese bid is not approved, there won't be another tender and the project will be cancelled definetly, because there won't be the economical and political conditions to develope this project next electoral year and every delay will make the MQ HSR not to be finished under this term.

Last edited by elekto; October 18th, 2014 at 06:50 PM.
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Old October 18th, 2014, 10:12 PM   #510
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elekto View Post
the chinese have already the executive project done, they have been working on this since 2 years ago, because Mexico invited several firms since then, but the chinese took this seriously, the others not.

Mexico by its part, had already done feasibility studies since 2004 and updated them starting in 2012, so by the beginning of 2014 were done, plus all the railway rights were acquired by the middle of this year.
I'm beginning to develop a lot of sympathy for this argument, although in the beginning I was skeptical. I should perhaps start from basics: Some 10 year ago I participated in a conference in public-private partnership (not specifically in railways) and the Chief Operating Officer of a German engineering group (not Siemens) said the following: "Many emerging economy governments fail to understand the following. We have a real limiting factor. We have only 5-6 project managers who are capable of running an infrastructure project - especially abroad - from start to finish. Those managers we have to invest very cautiously, and only when there's a more than 50 percent chance of winning the contract. We cannot participate in the early stages of a project just because the government says 'in the long run this could be a great opportunity for your firm.' That's just too boody thin!"

Maybe the real difference is that, after the last 20 years of expansion, Chinese engineering groups have a glut of project managers with recent experience in high-level infrastructure projects? Which being so, the respective companies might have a strong incentive to send them out in the world and "chase opportunies"?
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Last edited by hans280; October 18th, 2014 at 10:24 PM.
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Old October 19th, 2014, 12:56 AM   #511
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is exactly as you say, let you know that CRCC opened an office in Mexico 2 years ago with 100 specialists only to analyze and develope this proposal.

The Art of War huh?

Last edited by elekto; October 19th, 2014 at 06:07 AM.
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Old October 19th, 2014, 05:36 AM   #512
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
. Those managers we have to invest very cautiously, and only when there's a more than 50 percent chance of winning the contract. We cannot participate in the early stages of a project just because the government says 'in the long run this could be a great opportunity for your firm.' That's just too boody thin!"

:


And I totally agree with them in this part. I'll never understand this "contests" where you participate and have a chance to "loose". You just cannot afford to make an effort and put your best work if at the end you have high chances to not sell your project you're not getting paid.

Couldn't they gust go with a company and hire them directly?
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Old October 19th, 2014, 06:13 AM   #513
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And I totally agree with them in this part. I'll never understand this "contests" where you participate and have a chance to "loose". You just cannot afford to make an effort and put your best work if at the end you have high chances to not sell your project you're not getting paid.

Couldn't they gust go with a company and hire them directly?
people would have said "there was no competition!", "they adjudicated to their friends!" etc, is the same always and everywhere in the world, just don't let you fool by the leftist demagogues, they will be always against the progress of the country, no matter what and how you do.

no matter how much noise they do, this project is going forward as the reforms because everything is under the law, no single paragraph is illegal.
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Old October 20th, 2014, 01:46 AM   #514
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Experience in the CRH380A
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Old October 20th, 2014, 07:54 AM   #515
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What I really dream is HSR from Mexico to the USA built by China. It would be incredible!
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Old October 20th, 2014, 09:26 AM   #516
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Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
I also wonder why our Chinese friends are so much faster than their competitors. Sloppy work or toil around the clock?
Are they really that much faster ? I mean, they have never built a line
outside China before, right ? Their country not being a democracy, I'm sure
that once the decision to build is taken, the first bulldozers start moving the
day after. Over here, before that happens, we spend years on administrative
stuff, legal proceedings, and environmental studies. So yes, if you take the
time from decision to completion, they're way faster. But when they'll operate
in Mexico or anywhere else, they'll have to comply to the laws of the country,
and endure the mandatory administrative/legal/environmental processes too.
With that, will they still be faster ?
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Old October 20th, 2014, 01:29 PM   #517
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MarcVD,

There is of course an administrative process in China too. A country without it can not function. And remember there's a ton of non-democratic countries not building HSR. That in itself is not an argument. What China do have is effective means of allocating investment to areas that are politically prioritized. Compare this to HSR in the US where several years are spent on getting government funding. It's that process that China has cut out as it's a centralized economy.
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Old October 20th, 2014, 02:24 PM   #518
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And party word is absolutely canon. You'll find that there is no Tea Party in Chinese politics.
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Old October 20th, 2014, 02:31 PM   #519
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And party word is absolutely canon. You'll find that there is no Tea Party in Chinese politics.
That's what I meant. Once the decision is taken, there is no possibility for
citizens possibly impacted to seek recourse, and they certainly do not
embarrass themselves with environmental impact studies or archeological
surveys. That alone can save 50% of the elapsed time. And there won't be
endless discussions about where the funding is going to come from either.
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Old October 20th, 2014, 05:57 PM   #520
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That's what I meant. Once the decision is taken, there is no possibility for
citizens possibly impacted to seek recourse, and they certainly do not
embarrass themselves with environmental impact studies or archeological
surveys. That alone can save 50% of the elapsed time. And there won't be
endless discussions about where the funding is going to come from either.
But you are wrong on this, there's both environmental impact studies and archaeological surveys when needed. Sure, there's generally no way for citizens to impact decisions after they have been taking. But in all practical sense there's no way for individual citizens in the US to do this either. Instead there's endless exchanges of lawsuits between different economic actors on who to benefit from a project.

Now, all of this is way off topic. But my main point is that China do have an effective state apparatus that includes obvious things such as environmental impact studies and so on. They might not be perfect, or always followed but it's a myth that there's no proper state apparatus in China that handles the everyday bureaucratic issues. Instead we must look into the allocation of investment and centralized economy as key factors for the rapid construction of HSR.
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