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Old March 3rd, 2014, 04:34 PM   #21
snowdog
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
So, if their parents drive a Mercedes E-Class (not to mention sports car), so should their kids? I don't think so.
I do, I think it's a nonsense rule. Yes it will probably prevent the odd accident, but it takes away much fun from young drivers, plus it means young people have to buy a slowass car rather than drive a normal car of their parents.

I never had a car slower than 100hbp/tonne.

First car was 140 bhp @ 1205 kg @ 18, second car was 165 bhp @1265 kg's @ 19 yo...



The most ridiculous sign in The Netherlands:



''cycling street, cars are guests''.

Has no legal status whatsoever. But the idea is that cyclists ride in the middle so cars can't overtake em. Way to reduce the respect and courtesy between cars and bikes...
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Last edited by snowdog; March 3rd, 2014 at 04:41 PM.
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Old March 3rd, 2014, 04:46 PM   #22
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Quote:
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I never had a car slower than 100hbp/tonne.
You are indeed a speed freak

My car has just 65 hp with 1.5 L turbo diesel and don't care about it. It's enough to keep up with normal traffic, while reducing the amount of stops at the IRS offices (gas stations).
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Old March 3rd, 2014, 04:52 PM   #23
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Old March 3rd, 2014, 04:57 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
If you can afford to buy 2 powerful cars in one year, you sure can buy a small one for your kid...
Affording is one thing, wanting is another, I learned a lot in my first car, and had a cheap car that was quite luxurious ( Climate control, Cruise control, Leather seats, heated seats, everything electric, and it all worked!). Small cars command a premium here, you get a lot less car for the same money.

Plus I had great fun in it.

I didn't crash it, sold it for pretty much the same price (100 euros less) than I bought it, so I'd have felt a bit miffed if I had to drive something else instead! Just because some 18 y/o's park their car in a ditch or around the tree, is no reason to punish the whole group. ( imo ofc.)

I can see that you'd want more safety, but the line between safety and freedom has already far been crossed imo.

Last edited by snowdog; March 3rd, 2014 at 05:03 PM.
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Old March 3rd, 2014, 05:11 PM   #25
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To me, we have far more freedom than we deserve.
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Old March 3rd, 2014, 11:30 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OulaL View Post
I don't find this absurd at all. All stationary vehicles on motorways are a hazard, and this is one very easily avoided.
For me it's OK, but for many European countries it's still something out of ordinary . Still, a license revocation for that is IMHO largely excessive.

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Sometimes the speed limits are not set on the basis of road safety, but noise reduction. Of course this is hard to say without knowing the exact location; sometimes they are indeed stupid.
If noise is so disturbing, then why the hell not put noise barriers; many other European countries do so, instead of just annoy motorists?



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I also disagree here: cameras don't create traffic jams, cars do. When there are too many of them in too small a place, there are always problems.
This is a clear example of what should not be made, but is in place only to "insult" motorists. Traffic lights in the entrance of Bienne/Biel on National highway 5 (in Switzerland, National highways are equivalent to motorways/expressways elsewhere) letting pass 2 cars each time, and cameras on 4 corners to trap full wallets:
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Biel&...,61.56,,0,9.42
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Biel&...48.51,,0,-4.19
If there is too many cars and they create problems, solutions must be find, and not only annoyances and aggravations for everyone behind a wheel or handlebar. The problem would be resolved long time ago, if only means were put in place. It's an easy excuse to say "because traffic creates problems", but nobody wants to work on it.

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As of your picture; the speed limit and parking prohibition may concern horse-drawn vehicles and bicycles. Yes, both could exceed 30 km/h
On those vehicles, you do not need to have a speedometer, so how could know your speed anyway?

Last edited by John Maynard; March 3rd, 2014 at 11:39 PM.
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Old March 4th, 2014, 12:14 AM   #27
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New fantasy they've found in Lausanne to trap "1 km/h too high speeders", and at the same time by reducing 2 or more, the already very limited public parking places .


New very ugly "Mobile" stationary Traffistar "super" radar with 3D technology, 2-sided
and video surveillance, equipped with plate-recognition infrared cameras
and wireless transmission.
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Last edited by John Maynard; March 4th, 2014 at 12:23 AM.
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Old March 4th, 2014, 12:48 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Maynard View Post
New fantasy they've found in Lausanne to trap "1 km/h too high speeders", and at the same time by reducing 2 or more, the already very limited public parking places .


New very ugly "Mobile" stationary Traffistar "super" radar with 3D technology, 2-sided
and video surveillance, equipped with plate-recognition infrared cameras
and wireless transmission.
See the bright side: at least they didn't try to conceal it.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old March 4th, 2014, 12:57 AM   #29
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See the bright side: at least they didn't try to conceal it.
Awesome, warning of a radar is illegal here (and put bright reflecting signs on them), as well as having positions of stationary radars on your navigation system . Not only, they're not concealed, but they're an add to the already existing artillery of hidden radars .


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Old March 4th, 2014, 01:03 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
So, if their parents drive a Mercedes E-Class (not to mention sports car), so should their kids? I don't think so.
Well, I understand the rule, I just think 90bhp is weirdly strict (and probably partly a relic from years back when cars were less powerful and less weighty?). The power-to-weight ratio is more logical to use for a rule like this.
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Old March 4th, 2014, 01:12 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by snowdog View Post
I do, I think it's a nonsense rule. Yes it will probably prevent the odd accident, but it takes away much fun from young drivers, plus it means young people have to buy a slowass car rather than drive a normal car of their parents.

I never had a car slower than 100hbp/tonne.

First car was 140 bhp @ 1205 kg @ 18, second car was 165 bhp @1265 kg's @ 19 yo...
I have 275 hp at 1400 kg

Why limit power for inexperienced driver? If anything, inexperienced driver needs more power to get out of miscalculated situation (like... passing a truck without looking far enough...)
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Old March 4th, 2014, 01:25 AM   #32
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I'm going to bother to talk about the cost of car insurance for young drivers in the UK again.

Anyway, in the UK, speed cameras are signed from quite far, and often (probably most of the time) there are signs and no cameras, and when there are cameras they mostly have no flash. Also, the section of road covered by each camera is marked out on the road with little white lines.

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Old March 4th, 2014, 01:26 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
To me, we have far more freedom than we deserve.
It should be made a distinction between safety-oriented law enforcement and money-collecting-oriented law enforcement. Unfortunately, many times the second is prevalent.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.

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Old March 4th, 2014, 01:31 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Kanadzie View Post
I have 275 hp at 1400 kg

Why limit power for inexperienced driver? If anything, inexperienced driver needs more power to get out of miscalculated situation (like... passing a truck without looking far enough...)
Probably wouldn't get in the situation with a slower car though .

Don't get me wrong I'm against forbidding anything.
But you know how young people are, give em 275 bhp and they end up around a tree or in a ditch .

I agree that limits like in Italy are stupid, but giving most 18 year olds 300 ish bhp is not the smartest move either .
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Old March 4th, 2014, 01:40 AM   #35
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Furthermore, Lausanne a city of 130'000 souls, have more stationary and mobile radars than Warsaw, which has "officially" more than 1,7 mln. inhabitants .
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Old March 4th, 2014, 01:51 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snowdog View Post
Probably wouldn't get in the situation with a slower car though .

Don't get me wrong I'm against forbidding anything.
But you know how young people are, give em 275 bhp and they end up around a tree or in a ditch .

I agree that limits like in Italy are stupid, but giving most 18 year olds 300 ish bhp is not the smartest move either .
The young people will always end up in the tree or the ditch! I wonder though, about the newer cars with "stability program" and similar... it might turn a lot of those trees into ditches, and ditches into recoverable skids

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Furthermore, Lausanne a city of 130'000 souls, have more stationary and mobile radars than Warsaw, which has "officially" more than 1,7 mln. inhabitants .
Friggin Warsaw, too many photoradars there.
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Old March 4th, 2014, 01:55 AM   #37
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Quote:
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The most ridiculous sign in The Netherlands:



''cycling street, cars are guests''.
We have a similar thing is the US called a "sharrow" (share + arrow). It's a bike symbol below two chevrons painted on the pavement and it allows bikes to legally ride in the center of the lane. It's supposed to be used where the road is too narrow for a car to pass a bike, or where parked cars pose a danger (door opening) to bikes riding too close to them. I think it's a sensible idea, so long as it's not used where not appropriate (on streets wide enough to allow safe passing) and riders use consideration (ride to the right where there aren't any parked cars).
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Old March 4th, 2014, 09:53 AM   #38
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Well, I understand the rule, I just think 90bhp is weirdly strict (and probably partly a relic from years back when cars were less powerful and less weighty?). The power-to-weight ratio is more logical to use for a rule like this.
I agree. I think we could discuss about the limitation threshold, but some kind of limitation is necessary. But then again, for some people here we're stupid and nonsensical...

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Originally Posted by Kanadzie View Post
I have 275 hp at 1400 kg

Why limit power for inexperienced driver? If anything, inexperienced driver needs more power to get out of miscalculated situation (like... passing a truck without looking far enough...)
if inexperienced driver aren't capable of passing a truck, maybe they shouldn't overtake at all
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Old March 4th, 2014, 07:10 PM   #39
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I agree. I think we could discuss about the limitation threshold, but some kind of limitation is necessary. But then again, for some people here we're stupid and nonsensical...
I'm allergic to words like ''limitation'', ''limit'', ''forbidden'', ''ban'' and other authoritarian stuff.

Believing in a Libertarian system, I dislike most government influence... Be that on the road or anywhere else. I absolutely hate bureaucracy. In the Netherlands at least half the government workers should go immediately and do something useful in the private sector imho. I don't like political correctness and people that are stuck up on a moral high horse either.

Leave the people more to be as they want to be.
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Old March 4th, 2014, 07:38 PM   #40
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I'm allergic to words like ''limitation'', ''limit'', ''forbidden'', ''ban'' and other authoritarian stuff.

Believing in a Libertarian system, I dislike most government influence... Be that on the road or anywhere else. I absolutely hate bureaucracy. In the Netherlands at least half the government workers should go immediately and do something useful in the private sector imho. I don't like political correctness and people that are stuck up on a moral high horse either.

Leave the people more to be as they want to be.
In general I agree, I'm against government regulation myself too. However, I can't ignore statistics and statistics tell me that teenagers are by far the most dangerous road users. If they were isolated from the rest of the world, I'd be inclined to say: let them be. However, they are not, they share the roads with the rest of us and so I am open to solutions that limit their danger to fellow humans (as long as it is statistically proven to actually help).

Although on the other hand it's also a good thing to realize that roads are dangerous and we'll never be able to take away all risk.
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