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Old March 4th, 2014, 07:46 PM   #41
Palance
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I dislike most government influence... Be that on the road or anywhere else.
Perfect. So no more desicions should be made about new roads and no more roads should be built. Gouvernments decide about building roads, you know...
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Old March 4th, 2014, 08:53 PM   #42
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Perfect. So no more desicions should be made about new roads and no more roads should be built. Gouvernments decide about building roads, you know...
It's possible to have private companies decide about road construction projects as well. IMHO private economy would plan, construct and maintain much more efficiently... instead of having usually corrupt bureaucrats decide about it.
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Old March 4th, 2014, 08:56 PM   #43
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if inexperienced driver aren't capable of passing a truck, maybe they shouldn't overtake at all
You know they will, so why adding another dangerous circumstance (no power to get out)?
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Old March 4th, 2014, 09:24 PM   #44
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It's possible to have private companies decide about road construction projects as well. IMHO private economy would plan, construct and maintain much more efficiently... instead of having usually corrupt bureaucrats decide about it.
Ok, but the government has yet to fund infrastructural projects. These aren't things that pay for themselves. And the government has to decide the construction priorities too.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old March 4th, 2014, 09:40 PM   #45
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I'm allergic to words like ''limitation'', ''limit'', ''forbidden'', ''ban'' and other authoritarian stuff.

Believing in a Libertarian system, I dislike most government influence... Be that on the road or anywhere else. I absolutely hate bureaucracy. In the Netherlands at least half the government workers should go immediately and do something useful in the private sector imho. I don't like political correctness and people that are stuck up on a moral high horse either.

Leave the people more to be as they want to be.
Bureaucracy and rules are quite different things, actually.

Yes, leave people as they want to be. Go to lawless Somalia and see if it's a nice place.
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Old March 4th, 2014, 09:43 PM   #46
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You know they will, so why adding another dangerous circumstance (no power to get out)?
So the most inexperienced get to use the most powerful machinery? This is an upside-down world. Why don't we elect a toddler as president. He's inexperienced so he must be good.
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Old March 4th, 2014, 09:48 PM   #47
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The more free is better only when it doesn't take away someone else's freedom. I want to be free to travel by road without meeting morons endangering my life. Problems?
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old March 4th, 2014, 09:55 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
Bureaucracy and rules are quite different things, actually.

Yes, leave people as they want to be. Go to lawless Somalia and see if it's a nice place.
Anarchy is not the same as libertarism.
Some basic laws to keep order are always needed, but there are more and more of them each year. The law does not have to say what lawn you should keep.

The insurance companies do a good enough job keeping most young drivers driving slow bangers...

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I want to be free to travel by road without meeting morons endangering my life. Problems?
The roads are safer than ever, I didn't hear about people complaining this much 20 years ago.
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Last edited by snowdog; March 5th, 2014 at 10:15 AM.
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Old March 4th, 2014, 09:57 PM   #49
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Bureaucracy and rules are quite different things, actually.

Yes, leave people as they want to be. Go to lawless Somalia and see if it's a nice place.
Libertarianism will never advocate no government, but I'm sure you know that

Anyway, using Libertarian theory to defend a lack of rules in traffic is a flawed argument. Libertarian theory argues that the market can clear itself, by getting rid of inefficiency. I think that's a good thing in the economy, but in traffic I'm not so sure. I don't think getting rid of poor drivers the hard way is socially optimal especially as they are interconnected with good elements in a way you won't find in an economc market.
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Old March 5th, 2014, 12:57 AM   #50
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Anarchy is not the same as libertarism.
Some basic laws to keep order are always needed, but there are more and more of then each year. The law does not have to say what lawn you should keep.
Indeed - we need rule of law, where laws exist and are followed strictly. But these laws need to be justifiable and reasonable (no killing, no stealing...). Somalia isn't rule of law, only rule of gun.

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Libertarianism will never advocate no government, but I'm sure you know that
Anarcho-libertarian will though, just not minarchist I am kind of happy (amazed?) there are some European who knows this word...

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In general I agree, I'm against government regulation myself too. However, I can't ignore statistics and statistics tell me that teenagers are by far the most dangerous road users. If they were isolated from the rest of the world, I'd be inclined to say: let them be. However, they are not, they share the roads with the rest of us and so I am open to solutions that limit their danger to fellow humans (as long as it is statistically proven to actually help).

Although on the other hand it's also a good thing to realize that roads are dangerous and we'll never be able to take away all risk.
Sure, but logic always indicates inexperienced drivers to be most dangerous - they have the least skill, and also, the drivers who will probably kill themselves, end up dead before they are old

But - specifically in regards to power limits for inexperienced drivers, what is of prime importance is, IF this particular legislation can justify its existence by improving road safety. I posit that such legislation does not achieve this, and consequently only acts as a nefarious influence on society (a limitation on freedom without any tangible benefit to society). I base my assumption on the absence of such laws in most countries where there doesn't seem to be any issue (even in USA where 16 year old drivers and 300 hp vehicles is not at all uncommon, especially today) Similarly, lower speed limit on highways for inexperienced drivers doesn't seem to do any difference, considering same driver will go to Germany and have no issue driving 200 km/h. And of course, the young driver will be driving 200 km/h at some point regardless of the limit!

Last edited by Kanadzie; March 5th, 2014 at 01:03 AM.
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Old March 5th, 2014, 10:17 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neverworld View Post

Anyway, using Libertarian theory to defend a lack of rules in traffic is a flawed argument. Libertarian theory argues that the market can clear itself, by getting rid of inefficiency. I think that's a good thing in the economy, but in traffic I'm not so sure. I don't think getting rid of poor drivers the hard way is socially optimal especially as they are interconnected with good elements in a way you won't find in an economc market.
As in my edit, don't the insurance companies do that ? Young drivers pay a lot of premium, or are being blatantly refused by most insurers for high powered/high risk cars.
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Old March 5th, 2014, 10:46 AM   #52
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I think there's no point in discussing politics here. Everybody will stay in his own position.
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Old March 5th, 2014, 06:41 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by pi3141 View Post
It's possible to have private companies decide about road construction projects as well. IMHO private economy would plan, construct and maintain much more efficiently... instead of having usually corrupt bureaucrats decide about it.
I don't like that hyper-liberal stuff. You clearly only see the benefits of it. The government is not the enemy you know and also be aware that what's called 'corruption' in government agencies is called 'profit' in private companies.

BTW: in all European countries it's the government that decide where the roads come. Planning a road and maintaining it are two different things.

Last edited by De Klauw; March 5th, 2014 at 06:48 PM.
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Old March 5th, 2014, 06:59 PM   #54
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For me it's OK, but for many European countries it's still something out of ordinary . Still, a license revocation for that is IMHO largely excessive.
Guess so too.

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If noise is so disturbing, then why the hell not put noise barriers; many other European countries do so, instead of just annoy motorists?
Maybe they also want to use the same road that causes the noise.

It doesn't have to be logical if they are the same people who (using their electoral rights and the city council, for instance) make the rules.

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On those vehicles, you do not need to have a speedometer, so how could know your speed anyway?
The speed limit must be obeyed, with or without a speedometer. They can use a GPS device or just have a lucky guess...

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Originally Posted by snowdog View Post
I'm allergic to words like ''limitation'', ''limit'', ''forbidden'', ''ban'' and other authoritarian stuff.
--
Leave the people more to be as they want to be.
Traffic doesn't work like this.

Whenever your car is at any lane at any metre of any public road, then, at that very moment, nobody else's car is - cannot be - at the same lane at the same metre of the same road.

In other words, you are limiting everybody else's right to be at that very moment at that lane at that metre of that road.

Now isn't this a problem...
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Old March 5th, 2014, 07:04 PM   #55
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I think lower speed limits under rain are not necessary for moderate rain over highways with draining aslphalt
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Old March 5th, 2014, 10:57 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
So the most inexperienced get to use the most powerful machinery?
Not necessarily. But then again, powerful machinery is often safe machinery.

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Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
This is an upside-down world. Why don't we elect a toddler as president. He's inexperienced so he must be good.
I don't see the connection here. I didn't say lack of experience meant being good at driving; I said it requires adequate wheels.
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Old March 5th, 2014, 11:45 PM   #57
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Indeed - we need rule of law, where laws exist and are followed strictly. But these laws need to be justifiable and reasonable (no killing, no stealing...). Somalia isn't rule of law, only rule of gun.



Anarcho-libertarian will though, just not minarchist I am kind of happy (amazed?) there are some European who knows this word...



Sure, but logic always indicates inexperienced drivers to be most dangerous - they have the least skill, and also, the drivers who will probably kill themselves, end up dead before they are old

But - specifically in regards to power limits for inexperienced drivers, what is of prime importance is, IF this particular legislation can justify its existence by improving road safety. I posit that such legislation does not achieve this, and consequently only acts as a nefarious influence on society (a limitation on freedom without any tangible benefit to society). I base my assumption on the absence of such laws in most countries where there doesn't seem to be any issue (even in USA where 16 year old drivers and 300 hp vehicles is not at all uncommon, especially today) Similarly, lower speed limit on highways for inexperienced drivers doesn't seem to do any difference, considering same driver will go to Germany and have no issue driving 200 km/h. And of course, the young driver will be driving 200 km/h at some point regardless of the limit!
Ha, you think we are all communist in europe I guess It's a pity that in both Europe and US the economic right is far from libertarian in practice.

Regarding your last paragraph, I agree completely with you that any sort of policy needs to be data-driven. It's hard to compare countries, a before/after or random selection would be more convincing in adopting or debunking a young-driver policy.

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Originally Posted by snowdog View Post
As in my edit, don't the insurance companies do that ? Young drivers pay a lot of premium, or are being blatantly refused by most insurers for high powered/high risk cars.
They might, but at the moment young drivers are statistically more prone to create accidents. Maybe society should accept this, maybe there is no easy fix.
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Old March 6th, 2014, 09:36 AM   #58
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Not necessarily. But then again, powerful machinery is often safe machinery.
Sure. Like a Victorinox against a chainsaw.


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I don't see the connection here. I didn't say lack of experience meant being good at driving; I said it requires adequate wheels.
No. All it requires is adequate brain, and teacher.
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Old March 6th, 2014, 11:05 PM   #59
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You're taking it all out of the context. It does obviously look absurd that way, but I was talking of a particular case (a powerful car compensating the lack of experience), not a general rule.
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Old March 6th, 2014, 11:34 PM   #60
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When they made the law that states what kind of cars can be driven by beginners, there were some controversies because, according to the parameters included in the law, some "regular" cars became forbidden to beginners, while some SUVs weren't.
And, while SUVs are very safe for drivers, they're less safe for others, so giving them to 18 y.o. kids isn't so appropriate. According to some, SUVs incourage reckless driving, since drivers feel safer in them.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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