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Old November 27th, 2007, 04:13 PM   #61
LimaLondon
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Monorails are so gimicky...they dont do a better job than normal trains, more expensive to build..look very nice though.
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Old November 27th, 2007, 08:12 PM   #62
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Monorails are so gimicky...they dont do a better job than normal trains, more expensive to build..look very nice though.
In a dense urban area, where it is impossible to go underground, what would you rather have: Elevated LRT or a monorail?

Elevated LRT:



Monorail:

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Old November 27th, 2007, 08:14 PM   #63
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Anyways, nice to see this thread. Just ashame that KL's monorail line was poorly executed.
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Old November 28th, 2007, 04:20 AM   #64
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where it is impossible to go underground,
Part of the Putrajaya monorail (Onhold project)
Maybe the world's first!
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Old November 28th, 2007, 04:21 AM   #65
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Anyways, nice to see this thread. Just ashame that KL's monorail line was poorly executed.
The first Malaysian ambitious
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Old November 28th, 2007, 04:25 AM   #66
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NEW SECOND GENERATION MONORAIL: Deputy Prime Minister Datuk Seri Najib Tun Razak (right) and Scomi Group Bhd's chairman Tan Sri Asmat Kamaluddin (centre) inspecting the Sutra (Scomi Urban Transit Rail Application) at the launch November 26 2007.
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Old November 28th, 2007, 04:31 AM   #67
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Monorails are better for the urban environment because they can fit well in tight spaces and also they stradle on a beam so its impossible to derail it

nice to see an Official Monorail thread finally we can discuss the monorails in the world and also new ones that are planned and being built
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Old November 28th, 2007, 05:08 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Electrify View Post
In a dense urban area, where it is impossible to go underground, what would you rather have: Elevated LRT or a monorail?

Elevated LRT:



Monorail:

So you're comparing double track light rail to single track monorail? Great comparison, there. Also, those top speeds are really different.
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Old November 28th, 2007, 05:19 AM   #69
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Part of the Putrajaya monorail (Onhold project)
Maybe the world's first!
Well, there is a tunneled portion of the Shonan monorail that runs through a mountain. Safege monorails are the best for tunneling, since the running surfaces are inside the beam, it means the tunnels don't have to be widened for a straddling train.
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Old November 28th, 2007, 05:35 AM   #70
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So you're comparing double track light rail to single track monorail? Great comparison, there. Also, those top speeds are really different.




Better?
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Old November 28th, 2007, 07:11 AM   #71
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Better?
not really...C'mon electrify, you're showing a picture of the Kelana Jaya LRT line at a station with a centre platform...two separate guideways...

you want to make a proper comparison to your first picture you'd have to show the normal LRT guideway....in between stations, not approaching stations.

Ill be honest...I havent got a problem with monorails but they arent as much of a solution as the builders claim...they are still in the "unproven" category for so many people....

And Scomi would have a lot more credibility if they could have improved on the KL monorail. They list themselves among the "3 builders" of monorail (metro-ish systems) in the world based on a single truncated line that was poorly executed? Im all for selling sizzle but I still expect a steak, not a whopper!

I'll sit up and take notice when they extend that KL Monorail line from the Brickfields to the Midvalley neighbourhoods in KL...and fix up the screwup at KL Sentral Station.

Cheers, m
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Old November 28th, 2007, 01:12 PM   #72
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monorail is just a short term solution. Better use it at airport or theme park. For long term solution to solve the woes in KL it's better to have an S-bahn or an underground system since it is prove it can carry the masses.Basically the monorail in KL is a mess plus with the bad planning of routes and the projected passenger capacity.
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Old November 28th, 2007, 02:24 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Electrify View Post
Well, there is a tunneled portion of the Shonan monorail that runs through a mountain. Safege monorails are the best for tunneling, since the running surfaces are inside the beam, it means the tunnels don't have to be widened for a straddling train.
Safege monorails would require additional support structure in tunnels than a conventional design because you have to have the beam strong enough to support the monorail's weight from the ceiling in addition to earth forces inside the mountain or whatever overhead earth mass. Conventional designs put that dead weight straight into the ground below, simplifying the structure a great deal. This would make the Safege designs require notably higher tunnels.

How do you figure they wouldn't be as wide?

Also, the Tokyo Monorail has an underground portion around its airport terminus.
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Old November 28th, 2007, 10:06 PM   #74
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Safege monorails would require additional support structure in tunnels than a conventional design because you have to have the beam strong enough to support the monorail's weight from the ceiling in addition to earth forces inside the mountain or whatever overhead earth mass. Conventional designs put that dead weight straight into the ground below, simplifying the structure a great deal. This would make the Safege designs require notably higher tunnels.

How do you figure they wouldn't be as wide?

Also, the Tokyo Monorail has an underground portion around its airport terminus.
I figured you could build the track "inside the tunnel" per se with a Safege monorail. With a straddle monorail, the tunnel would have to be wider to accommodate the train straddling the beam.
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Old November 28th, 2007, 10:16 PM   #75
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not really...C'mon electrify, you're showing a picture of the Kelana Jaya LRT line at a station with a centre platform...two separate guideways...

you want to make a proper comparison to your first picture you'd have to show the normal LRT guideway....in between stations, not approaching stations.

Ill be honest...I havent got a problem with monorails but they arent as much of a solution as the builders claim...they are still in the "unproven" category for so many people....

And Scomi would have a lot more credibility if they could have improved on the KL monorail. They list themselves among the "3 builders" of monorail (metro-ish systems) in the world based on a single truncated line that was poorly executed? Im all for selling sizzle but I still expect a steak, not a whopper!

I'll sit up and take notice when they extend that KL Monorail line from the Brickfields to the Midvalley neighbourhoods in KL...and fix up the screwup at KL Sentral Station.

Cheers, m
How is this:







Can't find too many examples of LRT elevated in dense areas, probably cause people wouldn't want something as blocky as this anywhere near their homes.
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Old November 29th, 2007, 04:13 AM   #76
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That's ridiculous.

How about this? This is what Sound Transit is building, and it's a much smaller profile.



I also notice you aren't showing any monorails... here's what Seattle's monorail would have looked like:



And Vegas:



They're functionally very similar in appearance unless you're right underneath.

Most of the reason you don't see elevated standard rail in a city core is that it can go underground. Monorail is much more difficult to do this with.

Last edited by UrbanBen; November 29th, 2007 at 04:19 AM.
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Old November 29th, 2007, 05:53 AM   #77
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Quote:
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I figured you could build the track "inside the tunnel" per se with a Safege monorail. With a straddle monorail, the tunnel would have to be wider to accommodate the train straddling the beam.
??? You actually reading what you are posting there? If the train straddles the beam, the train is wider than the track already. The "bogie" area would be the same size or slimmer than the interior passenger space inside the body. This allows the straddle monorail to require a far smaller tunnel cross section than the safege model, since most of the "track" is straddled by the train itself, while safege's model puts on considerable additional height. The straddle monorail can use a conventional shield tunnel and be economical with space since it definately would not need a supporting structure between the two directions, but a safege design would not be able to use a conventional shield tunnel and probably would have supports running between the two directions - that takes up space.

You have to keep in mind that even though it is rock, it is not permitted to use the earth rock itself for suspending a structure. Supporting a structure underneath is fine, because gravity is on your side, but suspended it is your enemy and you don't want to take that chance, thus you'd need to build a confirmable structure from the ground up inside the tunnel in order to meet structural safety standards.
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Old November 29th, 2007, 07:10 AM   #78
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Quote:
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That's ridiculous.

How about this? This is what Sound Transit is building, and it's a much smaller profile.



I also notice you aren't showing any monorails... here's what Seattle's monorail would have looked like:



And Vegas:



They're functionally very similar in appearance unless you're right underneath.

Most of the reason you don't see elevated standard rail in a city core is that it can go underground. Monorail is much more difficult to do this with.
From those pics, the light rail looks MUCH larger than the monorail pics, with the exception of the Seattle concept one. Not too sure what that pic is supposed to be of (station perhaps?), but here are some pics of Seattle's current monorail:






While it is good to see Seattle making light rail work for them, it would have been cool to see their current monorail system upgraded into a city wide transit network.
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Old November 29th, 2007, 04:23 PM   #79
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You know, why is there such a defeatist attitude towards monorails? Is it cause of a Simpsons episode, or the fact that Disney uses them, or something else? I mean, if we can effectively put a train underground where there are utilities, building supports, sewers, molepeople, etc., what is so impossible about putting it above ground?

And really, if putting it above ground works, who cares whether it is light rail or a monorail? From what I can tell, monorail can do anything light/heavy rail can above grade (including capacity - look it up yourself), but looks much more aesthetic.
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Old November 29th, 2007, 04:39 PM   #80
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You know, why is there such a defeatist attitude towards monorails? Is it cause of a Simpsons episode, or the fact that Disney uses them, or something else? I mean, if we can effectively put a train underground where there are utilities, building supports, sewers, molepeople, etc., what is so impossible about putting it above ground?

And really, if putting it above ground works, who cares whether it is light rail or a monorail? From what I can tell, monorail can do anything light/heavy rail can above grade (including capacity - look it up yourself), but looks much more aesthetic.
I've tried to tell you several times already, it does not work in dense built-up areas with narrow streets like downtown Toronto. If you have big 8-lane American roads... SURE! IT'S PERFECT! Not too many 8-lane roads in Toronto; University, Don Mills, and parts of Lakeshore are the only ones that immediately come to mind - one has a subway already, another is slated for LRT, and a third is along an existing heavy rail commuter corridor and on its western end, where it is smaller, has LRT already, while the part that doesn't is covered by a highway that makes a monorail in that area impossible, not that it would matter as people would have a monorail blotting their waterfront over their dead body. Monorails along waterfronts don't scream "Toronto" at all, surface LRT along waterfronts does though, for historical reasons.

It will also stick out like a sore thumb in low-density areas and easily be considered an eyesore. Elevated LRT would be the same thing. You think the SRT is considered "wonderful" by anybody? It isn't. It's elevated portion is not popular.

These things would work in hydro corridors, and suburban arteries such as Mavis in Mississauga and Bovaird in Brampton. However, the ridership on such streets would suck - they're designed to be places nobody wants to go as a pedestrian, purely car oriented.

Major streets that are not "walled off" from neighborhoods, like Hurontario, and Dundas, should not be considered suitable for monorail, they will not "mesh" with the built form and will encounter viscious opposition.
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