daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Subways and Urban Transport

Subways and Urban Transport Metros, subways, light rail, trams, buses and other local transport systems



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old May 13th, 2015, 03:56 AM   #361
skyshakernowlive
BANNED
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 120
Likes (Received): 16

It talks about overcrowding in terms of intended capacity so that may explain oddities.

I suggest that they turn the service 24hrs, and build RER lines. Saitama to Yokohama RER has got to happen, as does a line from Tokyo Bay westwards through Ginza...
skyshakernowlive no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old May 13th, 2015, 04:01 AM   #362
Irfan Aliu
BANNED
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 7
Likes (Received): 2

Irfan Aliu no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 13th, 2015, 04:59 AM   #363
00Zy99
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,980
Likes (Received): 1507

Quote:
Originally Posted by skyshakernowlive View Post
I suggest that they turn the service 24hrs, and build RER lines. Saitama to Yokohama RER has got to happen, as does a line from Tokyo Bay westwards through Ginza...
The Keihin-Tohoku Line is already a RER-like line that happens to be all above ground between Saitama and Yokohama. There are also 2 other lines with similar service that parallel it making fewer stops.

Ginza is slightly North of Tokyo Bay, so I'm not sure what you're talking about here, but both the Chuo Rapid and the Chuo-Sobu Lines are effectively East-West RER.

Virtually ALL of the commuter lines around Tokyo are basically RER-like services.
__________________

Svartmetall, Abbendymion liked this post
00Zy99 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 13th, 2015, 05:07 AM   #364
skyshakernowlive
BANNED
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 120
Likes (Received): 16

Quote:
Originally Posted by 00Zy99 View Post
The Keihin-Tohoku Line is already a RER-like line that happens to be all above ground between Saitama and Yokohama. There are also 2 other lines with similar service that parallel it making fewer stops.

Ginza is slightly North of Tokyo Bay, so I'm not sure what you're talking about here, but both the Chuo Rapid and the Chuo-Sobu Lines are effectively East-West RER.

Virtually ALL of the commuter lines around Tokyo are basically RER-like services.
None of them are really segregated though. All JR lines are essentially suburban rail services. I think they should literally focus on segregation. Commuter lines essentially run into the MRT or JR network I think?

I thought it was possible to go east onto the bay from Ginza, or is there another part of Tokyo that sits in the middle of water? Is the area east of Shimbashi Tokyo Bay then? :confused:

Either way, I think rapid services need better frequency and segregation from normal MRT services. I think rapid services should still run, but along with segregated RER services. Saitama to Yokohama seems like the best candidate for such a line, especially since all existing lines run along Yamanote which must be a bottleneck.
skyshakernowlive no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 13th, 2015, 05:39 AM   #365
Rodalvesdepaula
Scooter/motorbike lover
 
Rodalvesdepaula's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Sorocaba (SP), Brazil
Posts: 49,562
Likes (Received): 40911

Quote:
Originally Posted by sacto7654 View Post
I wonder was that data on the overcrowded trains taken before or after the opening of the Ueno-Tokyo Line on 14 March 2015? With the opening of the Ueno-Tokyo Line, passengers coming in from the Takasaki, Utsunomiya (Tōhoku) and Jōban Lines no longer need to transfer trains at Ueno Station to get to the Tokyo-Shinagawa corridor, and that could tremendously relieve the passenger load on the Yamanote and Keihin-Tōhoku Line trains between Ueno and Shinagawa Stations.
Before Tokyo-Ueno Line opening.

These database are by year 2014.

With new Tokyo-Ueno Line, Keihin-Tohoku and Yamanote trains had great relief.
__________________


loefet liked this post
Rodalvesdepaula no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 13th, 2015, 06:35 AM   #366
00Zy99
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,980
Likes (Received): 1507

Quote:
Originally Posted by skyshakernowlive View Post
None of them are really segregated though. All JR lines are essentially suburban rail services. I think they should literally focus on segregation. Commuter lines essentially run into the MRT or JR network I think?

I thought it was possible to go east onto the bay from Ginza, or is there another part of Tokyo that sits in the middle of water? Is the area east of Shimbashi Tokyo Bay then? :confused:

Either way, I think rapid services need better frequency and segregation from normal MRT services. I think rapid services should still run, but along with segregated RER services. Saitama to Yokohama seems like the best candidate for such a line, especially since all existing lines run along Yamanote which must be a bottleneck.
The Keihin-Tohoku, the Yamanote, the Chuo-Sobu, and several others all have their own sets of tracks (this leads to scenes of up to six through tracks running side-by-side).

And all of these lines use subway-style rolling stock. The Joban local trains DO run through onto the subway. The Keihin-Tohoku and the Yamanote run at less than two-minute intervals in each direction throughout most of the day.

In Paris some of the RER lines share track with the "conventional" commuter lines for some of the distance, and this is basically the same as what happens in Tokyo on some of the lines (others have entirely their own tracks).

Here's a Yamanote Line train running on its own tracks:



The Keihin-Tohoku has been operating on its own tracks since 1915.

Payment for these lines is done in the same way as with Japanese subways (although there was some difference in accounts that had to be smoothed over).

These trains run every five minutes or less throughout the day. How is this not what you are requesting?
__________________

Svartmetall, Abbendymion liked this post
00Zy99 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 13th, 2015, 09:01 AM   #367
Sr.Horn
té con pastas member
 
Sr.Horn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 13,470

Skyshakernowlive I think is trying to export the RER system to Tokyo Don't know why when the rail transport of Tokyo is by far, best as Paris RER.
Sr.Horn no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 13th, 2015, 04:15 PM   #368
Svartmetall
Ordo Ab Chao
 
Svartmetall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Past: Northampton, UK (19 years), Auckland NZ (7 years), Now: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 14,074
Likes (Received): 8823

Saitama to Yokohama? That's covered two ways now. First you have the option for parts of Saitama to take advantage of the through running of the Tokyo Fukutoshin line with the Seibu Ikebukuro line and Tobu Tojo line all the way to the Tokyu Toyoko line and Minatomirai line in Yokohama. Additionally you have the Shonan-Shinjuku line and the Keihin Tohoku line on the JR network coming straight from the "centre" of Saitama at Omiya.

Unlike the RER which you are touting as a solution, many of these train lines do not have the extent of branches that the RER in Paris does. In fact, the simplified nature of Japanese stations and line networks (as well as segregation of lines) is used by Nederlands Spoorwagen (NS, the Dutch company who runs most of the train lines in The Netherlands) as an example as to why there are few knock-on delays when there are problems on one line and as an example as to why the network has less vulnerabilities compared to the Dutch network, which in itself is a commuter network for the whole of the south of the country given its service frequency (see here: http://static.micheljansen.org/uploads/cvs10_056.pdf). This report was done by ProRail, the owners of the Dutch tracks and the company responsible for maintenance and upkeep of the system in The Netherlands.

This picture illustrates things nicely at two important through stations in The Netherlands (Utrecht) vs. Tokyo Station in Japan and can be extrapolated across the network in many places.





So... Combine incredibly frequent running (many lines at 5 minute intervals throughout the day or better in peak hour) with skip-stop service patterns (most lines have commuter express versions too in many different service patterns) and subway/metro-like rolling stock with multiple door boarding and longitudinal seats with train lengths between 10 (200m) and 15 (300m) you see a very high throughput and reliable network that already fulfils what you suggest.

Last edited by Svartmetall; May 13th, 2015 at 04:27 PM.
Svartmetall no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 13th, 2015, 07:33 PM   #369
starrwulfe
ご乗車頂いてありがとうございます。
 
starrwulfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Yokohama
Posts: 776
Likes (Received): 469

...don't forget that a lot of these routes are only parts of what someone uses to commute and a lot of us make 2 or 3 transfers as well.
starrwulfe no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 13th, 2015, 08:04 PM   #370
Svartmetall
Ordo Ab Chao
 
Svartmetall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Past: Northampton, UK (19 years), Auckland NZ (7 years), Now: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 14,074
Likes (Received): 8823

Quote:
Originally Posted by starrwulfe View Post
...don't forget that a lot of these routes are only parts of what someone uses to commute and a lot of us make 2 or 3 transfers as well.
Same in most large cities too, few of us get a seat door to door, which makes his insistence even more bizarre. Very few people have direct routes anywhere. Certainly many Parisians have to transfer from the RER to get to where they're going. Even in Stockholm I have three transfers before I get to work.
Svartmetall no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 13th, 2015, 08:24 PM   #371
loefet
Registered User
 
loefet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Göteborg
Posts: 525
Likes (Received): 233

Quote:
Originally Posted by Svartmetall View Post
Saitama to Yokohama? That's covered two ways now. First you have the option for parts of Saitama to take advantage of the through running of the Tokyo Fukutoshin line with the Seibu Ikebukuro line and Tobu Tojo line all the way to the Tokyu Toyoko line and Minatomirai line in Yokohama. Additionally you have the Shonan-Shinjuku line and the Keihin Tohoku line on the JR network coming straight from the "centre" of Saitama at Omiya.
You can also add the Ueno-Tokyo Line to that list as well.
And it along with the Shonan-Shinjuku Line fulfils his RER dreams on that stretch, based on what he wrote in the Paris|Metro thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyshakernowlive View Post
I equate RER to a high frequency service that runs to bed towns, and stops less than a ubahn.
I equate sbahn to a mid frequency service that covers the mid density suburbs of a city thoroughly, occasionally running into the bed towns and villages, and is slower than RER. Sbahn can help connect villages but I presume it will be low frequency.

RER should have a higher frequency at every station, but both systems will have similar frequencies at major interchanges.

A person is highly likely to use the RER to get out into the suburbs quickly before changing onto sbahn.

I use these terms due to lack of clear terminology, the word metro can be used for multiple services, but ubahn usually means 'tube' or 'underground metro'. Similarly I use sbahn to mean local services radiating out from mainline stations, which arent classed as intercity.

Think of it as...
U-Bahn: Urban Rail
S-Bahn: Sub Urban Rail
RER: Regional Express Rail

Metro Express is just a type if service found on ubahns. In the same way one can find commuter services on the above three networks.
Both the Shonan-Shinjuku Line and the Ueno-Tokyo Line, have a high frequency service (just like every other major line in Tokyo) and they have less stops compared to the more "local" variants, such as the Keihin-Tohoku Line or any other through service connection between the two regions.
The "S-S" and "U-T" lines needs about 60 minutes for the trip, where as the "K-T" line needs almost 90 minutes for the trip.


But then again, this discussion is pretty flawed in my mind. The problem isn't people wanting to go between Yokohama and Saitama, or between Yokohama and Tokyo even, it is that there have been that a large number of passengers from the northern half of the Tokyo Metropolis (using the Joban, Takasaki, etc. lines) that have all been "dumped" at Ueno where these lines terminate, and they have been forced to go on the Keihin-Tohoku and the Yamanote Line if they wished to go further south, this is what have created this massive crowding in this section. But as we all know then this problem have been mitigated already with the opening of the Ueno-Tokyo Line. So we really have to wait and see for the next set of data if it have done the trick.
__________________

Svartmetall, Sr.Horn, Abbendymion liked this post
loefet no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 13th, 2015, 08:25 PM   #372
Oasis-Bangkok
From Zero to Hero !!
 
Oasis-Bangkok's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Bangkok
Posts: 16,013
Likes (Received): 52199



Tokyo station at night by aotaro, on Flickr
__________________
Oasis-Bangkok está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old May 13th, 2015, 08:52 PM   #373
Svartmetall
Ordo Ab Chao
 
Svartmetall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Past: Northampton, UK (19 years), Auckland NZ (7 years), Now: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 14,074
Likes (Received): 8823

Quote:
Originally Posted by loefet View Post
You can also add the Ueno-Tokyo Line to that list as well.
And it along with the Shonan-Shinjuku Line fulfils his RER dreams on that stretch, based on what he wrote in the Paris|Metro thread
Indeed, I agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by loefet View Post
Both the Shonan-Shinjuku Line and the Ueno-Tokyo Line, have a high frequency service (just like every other major line in Tokyo) and they have less stops compared to the more "local" variants, such as the Keihin-Tohoku Line or any other through service connection between the two regions.
The "S-S" and "U-T" lines needs about 60 minutes for the trip, where as the "K-T" line needs almost 90 minutes for the trip.
Exactly, and that is what I said at the bottom of my post about there being express/commuter express options. The only difference of course is that this is actually a separate line in this case rather than the Keihin-Tohoku line actually offering different service patterns (though there are some rapids as you know).

Quote:
Originally Posted by loefet View Post
But then again, this discussion is pretty flawed in my mind. The problem isn't people wanting to go between Yokohama and Saitama, or between Yokohama and Tokyo even, it is that there have been that a large number of passengers from the northern half of the Tokyo Metropolis (using the Joban, Takasaki, etc. lines) that have all been "dumped" at Ueno where these lines terminate, and they have been forced to go on the Keihin-Tohoku and the Yamanote Line if they wished to go further south, this is what have created this massive crowding in this section. But as we all know then this problem have been mitigated already with the opening of the Ueno-Tokyo Line. So we really have to wait and see for the next set of data if it have done the trick.
Indeed. It's very rare that anyone would want to go from one side of the metropolitan area to the other in my opinion - heck, how many people do that with the RER that he is championing?
Svartmetall no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 13th, 2015, 09:55 PM   #374
skyshakernowlive
BANNED
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 120
Likes (Received): 16

Quote:
Originally Posted by Svartmetall View Post
Indeed, I agree.



Exactly, and that is what I said at the bottom of my post about there being express/commuter express options. The only difference of course is that this is actually a separate line in this case rather than the Keihin-Tohoku line actually offering different service patterns (though there are some rapids as you know).



Indeed. It's very rare that anyone would want to go from one side of the metropolitan area to the other in my opinion - heck, how many people do that with the RER that he is championing?
Tokyo is slightly different to European cities, in that it doesn't really have a central core. Saitama and Yokohama are destinations in their own right, as well as being popular bed towns for Tokyo.

I think Tokyo does well and isn't in desperate need of anything new. I would attempt to run trains for longer hours, and some stations seriously need easier interchanges.

I'm not too familiar with Ueno, but something I enjoy about Tokyo Metro is their commuter trains that run onto the suburban rail network, and gives the network the RER feel I am looking for. By building such RER lines one would see more trains running through Tokyo.

Am I also the only one who thinks the Toei network is VERY dated?
skyshakernowlive no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 14th, 2015, 12:01 AM   #375
Svartmetall
Ordo Ab Chao
 
Svartmetall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Past: Northampton, UK (19 years), Auckland NZ (7 years), Now: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 14,074
Likes (Received): 8823

Quote:
Originally Posted by skyshakernowlive View Post
Tokyo is slightly different to European cities, in that it doesn't really have a central core. Saitama and Yokohama are destinations in their own right, as well as being popular bed towns for Tokyo.

I think Tokyo does well and isn't in desperate need of anything new. I would attempt to run trains for longer hours, and some stations seriously need easier interchanges.

I'm not too familiar with Ueno, but something I enjoy about Tokyo Metro is their commuter trains that run onto the suburban rail network, and gives the network the RER feel I am looking for. By building such RER lines one would see more trains running through Tokyo.

Am I also the only one who thinks the Toei network is VERY dated?
I honestly don't know why you think that Tokyo doesn't have a core - it does, the interior of the Yamanote loop kinda defines the core, and it definitely has the greatest concentration of workplaces.

As for interchanges, part of the problem with interchanges in Tokyo I would say is due to separate companies running different lines. That can sometimes make interchanges a bit convoluted.

I still don't see where or how you would implement an "RER" in Tokyo, though... It already exists.

As for the TOEI network, I don't think it's dated at all - what makes you say that? The Oedo line is one of the newest metro lines in Tokyo for example!

Last edited by Svartmetall; May 14th, 2015 at 12:53 AM.
Svartmetall no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 14th, 2015, 07:58 AM   #376
skyshakernowlive
BANNED
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 120
Likes (Received): 16

Quote:
Originally Posted by Svartmetall View Post
I honestly don't know why you think that Tokyo doesn't have a core - it does, the interior of the Yamanote loop kinda defines the core, and it definitely has the greatest concentration of workplaces.

As for interchanges, part of the problem with interchanges in Tokyo I would say is due to separate companies running different lines. That can sometimes make interchanges a bit convoluted.

I still don't see where or how you would implement an "RER" in Tokyo, though... It already exists.

As for the TOEI network, I don't think it's dated at all - what makes you say that? The Oedo line is one of the newest metro lines in Tokyo for example!
Tokyo's cores are looped around Yamanote and further development in Saitama and Yokohama. All the center really has is the imperial palace and nothing else significant.

Even intracompany changes can seem stressful, by no means bad by European standards but seemingly improvable. Interchanges at some major stations look ridiculous.

Concerning Toei, even if you consider Oedo to be modern several lines look very dated in comparison to Metro or even JR. I find that Metro does a better job integrating JR and private companies too.

Going back to RER. Tokyo does not NEED anything really, but such a system does not fully exist in Tokyo. There is one cross line (you would equate to Thameslink in London) and several lines that hug the Yamanote.
skyshakernowlive no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 14th, 2015, 08:35 AM   #377
mrsmartman
Registered User
 
mrsmartman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 1,378
Likes (Received): 1453

In Tokyo, there are approximately 1,070 rail crossings at present. Rail crossings impede the flow of traffic and are barriers to safely and efficiently conducting urban activities. The Tokyo Metropolitan Government is moving ahead with grade separation projects in order to eliminate traffic congestion at rail crossings and enhance urban functionality and convenience.

Keikyu Main Line-Airport Line continuous grade separation project (near Keikyu Kamata Station)

Prior to elevation



Following elevation



(C)Bureau of Construction, TOKYO METROPOLITAN GOVERNMENT All Rights Reserved.

http://www.kensetsu.metro.tokyo.jp/e.../gaiyo/04.html
__________________
mrsmartman no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 14th, 2015, 05:21 PM   #378
Rodalvesdepaula
Scooter/motorbike lover
 
Rodalvesdepaula's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Sorocaba (SP), Brazil
Posts: 49,562
Likes (Received): 40911

Is there any project to eliminate the Odakyu rail crossing in Shinjuku?

__________________


dimlys1994, mrsmartman liked this post
Rodalvesdepaula no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 14th, 2015, 06:37 PM   #379
00Zy99
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,980
Likes (Received): 1507

Quote:
Originally Posted by skyshakernowlive View Post
Tokyo's cores are looped around Yamanote and further development in Saitama and Yokohama. All the center really has is the imperial palace and nothing else significant.
That Yamanote loop IS the center for Tokyo.

The center of the center has some medium-to-high-end corporate offices, the palace, and the whole government bureaucracy and embassies.

Quote:
Even intracompany changes can seem stressful, by no means bad by European standards but seemingly improvable. Interchanges at some major stations look ridiculous.
As someone who has BEEN to Tokyo, I can tell that its really not.

Quote:
Concerning Toei, even if you consider Oedo to be modern several lines look very dated in comparison to Metro or even JR. I find that Metro does a better job integrating JR and private companies too.
TOEI was running in the red until very recently, and it is still government-owned, so it must be more frugal with money. That said, the stations are still very nice in comparison to anywhere else in the world, or to much of the private railways.

Quote:
Going back to RER. Tokyo does not NEED anything really, but such a system does not fully exist in Tokyo. There is one cross line (you would equate to Thameslink in London) and several lines that hug the Yamanote.
Tokyo's system is mostly adequate for the current patterns of development. The lines that "hug" the Yamanote are the major North-South through arteries. They connect well to the major cores of development and link to the various subways for access to anything that isn't directly served. East-West traffic (not including the orbital lines) has the Chuo-Sobu Line, the Chuo Rapid Line, and the Keiyo Line (the Joban line is more Northeasterly). The only major project that is currently being seen as being needed is to build a parallel relief line for the Chuo Rapid that would link into the Keiyo Line under Tokyo Station.

This is in addition to multiple subways, and numerous private railway lines. The Seibu lines run East-West and connect to the subway, diffusing to the North and South. The Keio Lines run from the West side of Tokyo and use the Shinjuku Line subway to get to the Eastern side of town. The Tozai line runs directly from the Chuo Rapid Line (through service) across town to the Sobu Rapid Line (through service here too). The Joban Line has the Chiyoda Line subway extending service diagonally across town to the private Odakyu Railway.

Therefore, service is more than adequate for Tokyo's needs. As mentioned, the largest effort currently underway in the area is grade separation and multiple-tracking.
__________________

Svartmetall, loefet liked this post
00Zy99 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 14th, 2015, 07:12 PM   #380
Svartmetall
Ordo Ab Chao
 
Svartmetall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Past: Northampton, UK (19 years), Auckland NZ (7 years), Now: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 14,074
Likes (Received): 8823

I also think it's worth adding about the interchanges that it is actually needed to have some large gaps at major stations between lines otherwise people would not be able to move. By having longer walks people are distributed throughout the station more effectively and therefore crushloads of people walking between lines are mitigated somewhat. I mean, so many of the worlds busiest stations are in Tokyo, Osaka and even Nagoya and Fukuoka and the numbers of people cramming through them are phenomenal - heck Shinjuku handles almost the population of New Zealand on a daily basis (3.64 million). Those are frightening numbers for a single location, so at least by having many interchanges it's a bit easier.
Svartmetall no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
chiba monorail, jr east, keio, keisei, metro, odakyu, seibu, tama monorail, tobu, toei subway, tokyo, tokyo metro, tokyu, yamanote

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 09:03 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium