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Old May 17th, 2015, 12:01 AM   #401
Svartmetall
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Please, tell us what lines are in serious need of refurbishment? I mean, what's wrong with them? I found nearly all the lines to be perhaps not the most aesthetically pleasing, but definitely well maintained.

As for terminating trains, no. The whole point of through running is to improve flexibility and to minimise transfers that people make. That can only be a good thing.

More suburban lines? Probably not, it's pretty well covered. Koto and Edogawa wards are the only ones that need greater coverage I'd say.
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Old May 17th, 2015, 11:07 AM   #402
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skyshakernowlive View Post
I also want opinions on Tokyo Metro's commuter express services that run through on to sbahn lines and operate similarly to RER.
I'll tell you one thing: Tokyo doesn't have a system called "RER" or "S-Bahn" so please do not insist on calling things by the wrong name.

If you want to talk about Tokyo Transport System in general, use words like "commuter" (commuter lines or commuter trains), "subway", and the service of the train on the line (Express, Rapid, Liner, Local, Through...).
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Old May 17th, 2015, 12:33 PM   #403
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Svartmetall View Post
Please, tell us what lines are in serious need of refurbishment? I mean, what's wrong with them? I found nearly all the lines to be perhaps not the most aesthetically pleasing, but definitely well maintained.

As for terminating trains, no. The whole point of through running is to improve flexibility and to minimise transfers that people make. That can only be a good thing.

More suburban lines? Probably not, it's pretty well covered. Koto and Edogawa wards are the only ones that need greater coverage I'd say.
Several private lines that radiate out of Tokyo really need a new lick of paint, some of them come across worse than several sbahn stations in your London. Several have on grade crossings, no lifts, archaic design and nearly none of them have platform edge doors. The trains in some of these private lines are hideous compared to more modern ones operated by Tokyo Metro and other private companies; I would say that they remind me of majority of Toei's stock and stations.

It's not as if Tokyo is not capable of bringing these up to standard, the majority of Tokyo's transport network is very good quality, though I would also draw attention to updating Tokyo's buses.

I think Tokyo lacks some inter-suburban lines and needs a construction something similar to Moscow's rings or London's overground, or a larger Yamanote line. Infact, I would say London has a better suburban rail philosophy in that their network is more flexible and able to run services within the suburban area only - they mainly loose out for relying on such a network in heavily urban areas and limiting it to South London.




BTW, Tokyo is the perfect example of why I use ubahn and sbahn to separate the services. Tokyo has two systems, one called Tokyo Metro and the other Toei Subway. Sbahn also clearly defines the services which I wish to specify (suburban rail services + commuter/express services beyond ubahn lines).

The only other term I am happy to use for ubahn services is tube. Sbahn is meant to specify rail services mainly in suburban areas and may not just be limited to traditional suburban rail but usually is.

I'm not sure why some of you are landing so heavily on me for using European terminology, you are being more strict than a Pakistani! I should be allowed to use my terminology over other versions to get my point across: everyone is somewhat aware of what I mean if I ask them to define their ubahn and sbahn systems, just as if I uses US terminology such as subway. It's not as if I'm using European terminology as a slur!
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Old May 17th, 2015, 02:55 PM   #404
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Um... Tokyo has the the JR Musashino line - a true ring railway that links outer suburbs all the way from Fuchu Honmachi to Nishi Funabashi (and at Fuchu Honmachi it links up to the Namba line which then goes across to Kawasaki) so effectively there is a "larger Yamanote line". It also has the Tobu Noda line that rings around Chiba to Saitama. From Omiya there is the Kawagoe line that rings around the west of the Tokyo metropolitan area too, so with the Tobu Noda line it forms a ring even further out from Tokyo than the Musashino line. At Komagawa, this links up to the Hachiko line that links Komagawa station to Hachioji, whereby one can change to the Yokohama line and ring around to Yokohama, or you can change to the Sagami line at Hashimoto to link round to Chigasaki, completing another circle. There are lots of tangental connections in Tokyo outside the centre - the network is not radial in nature.

As for stations without elevators - for disability purposes nearly all stations that I know of have been, or are being updated to be disabled friendly and companies are doing just this - look at the Tokyu and Keikyu buisness plan, they include updates to stations and continued investment etc. Many already possess elevators - and I don't remember a single station that I have used in Japan beyond the tiny rural ones that don't have full accessibility. As for aesthetics - I think one of my friends who lives in Tokyo sums this up quite well, and this ties in far more with the Japanese approach to everything - "as long as it is well maintained and functional, I don't care how it looks". This is the prevailing view for most, it works so why invest money into superfluous fluff to make it "fancy for the sake of being fancy". It's far more important, even if it is a more industrial and minimalist modernist design, to work well rather than look good. I can point you to plenty of examples of stations that look fancy but fulfil little purpose other than sitting there and looking pretty simply because the service levels are not there.

Also, platform screen doors - not everyone actually wants them as it slows down running. Given the number of deaths due to accident on the network, there is little point in general to install them. I'm actually one of those people who doesn't think they are necessary, and I hope they are not installed in Stockholm (they are testing them at present here).

PS: I am not a Londoner, I live in Stockholm. Also, it was not me that requested you stop using the European terms here - it was Sr. Horn, a noted contributor to this thread and to the Japanese forum in general. You need to reply to him with the latter part of your post as he was the one that took exception to what you term the network.
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Old May 17th, 2015, 02:59 PM   #405
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It's my personal opinion, but I think we may soon experience a huge burst of activity in terms of rolling stock upgrades for JR East, Tokyo Metro, Toei Subway, and the Keisei, Keikyu, Odakyu, Seibu and Tobu commuter rail lines in the Tokyo area.

The reason is simple: the 2020 Summer Olympics. The city of Tokyo wants to put its best face forward, and it would certainly help if all the subway and commuter rail lines get new rolling stock or heavily refurbished current rolling stock that are more "friendly" to foreign visitors with all-new interiors and announcements in both Japanese and English on all lines. JR East is already doing this with the E233 and soon E235 EMU's; expect others to follow suit in a big way soon.
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Old May 17th, 2015, 03:23 PM   #406
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sacto7654 View Post
It's my personal opinion, but I think we may soon experience a huge burst of activity in terms of rolling stock upgrades for JR East, Tokyo Metro, Toei Subway, and the Keisei, Keikyu, Odakyu, Seibu and Tobu commuter rail lines in the Tokyo area.

The reason is simple: the 2020 Summer Olympics. The city of Tokyo wants to put its best face forward, and it would certainly help if all the subway and commuter rail lines get new rolling stock or heavily refurbished current rolling stock that are more "friendly" to foreign visitors with all-new interiors and announcements in both Japanese and English on all lines. JR East is already doing this with the E233 and soon E235 EMU's; expect others to follow suit in a big way soon.
I really don't think that rolling stock should be a concern given they have quite a young stock overall by international standards in the metro area (rural is another matter). I mean, other cities have much older rolling stock, some from the 1960s even running, yet it hasn't put them off holding big events like this, nor has it affected anyones perception of the system - I mean the Piccadilly and Bakerloo lines in London ran 1972 rolling stock for the London Olympics (despite the Piccadilly being the tube line to Heathrow).

I do agree that the aesthetics of some platforms and stations may be jarring to some westerners who are not used to the Japanese aesthetic, though. The level of concrete and what not may be more off putting than rolling stock, and that's where I agree with our new friend above. However, like I said, the biggest impression for visitors should be that the system works well rather than "looks flashy" (hopefully).
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Old May 17th, 2015, 03:36 PM   #407
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Svartmetall, Keisei, Okakyu, Seibu and Tobu have a LOT of older rolling stock that are often seen in the center of Tokyo (well, at least at Ikebuburo, Ueno, Shinjuku and Shibuya Stations) travelling to outlying areas. I expect them to be either replaced by 2020 or heavily refurbished by then.
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Old May 17th, 2015, 03:51 PM   #408
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Keisei - oldest current stock, 1972 (3500 series).
Tobu - oldest current stock, 1963 (8000 series) Refurbished last in 2008 and looks like this post refurb: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...e_20080726.JPG
Odakyu - oldest current stock, 1982 (8000 series).
Seibu - oldest current stock, 1969 (101 series). Looked like this before the last refurbishment in 2010. http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E8%A5%...3_interior.JPG

So you see, these are not that shocking really and are in keeping with international systems. Perhaps they will be scrapped or replaced or relocated by then, sure, but they aren't really that old in my opinion if these are the oldest stocks I can find for those companies you mentioned. Nor do the rolling stock look so jarringly old that they seem to be ugly or outdated. If I consider what is running in my city from 1974 ( http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/C6H_(tu...H_Interior.jpg ) I think the Japanese stock has held up better.



But this is purely an aesthetics discussion I guess and it would be really nice to see a big announcement for new stock of course.

Last edited by Svartmetall; May 17th, 2015 at 04:31 PM.
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Old May 17th, 2015, 04:51 PM   #409
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I don't think so the rolling stock in Tokyo area are excessively old as Svartmetall said.

But, although the trains are old, the maintenance is perfect.
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Old May 17th, 2015, 05:01 PM   #410
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Maintenance in Japanese commuter trains isn't a problem.

JNR 103 Series trains were built between 1963 and 1984. Some units are still operating in Osaka metropolitan area as new.
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Old May 17th, 2015, 07:14 PM   #411
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodalvesdepaula View Post
Maintenance in Japanese commuter trains isn't a problem.

JNR 103 Series trains were built between 1963 and 1984. Some units are still operating in Osaka metropolitan area as new.
However, the high power consumption of the JNR-era 103 EMU's is already driving most of them out of service anyway. And they will be gone from JR West service once the 323 Series EMU takes over the Osaka Loop duties and the 227 Series EMU is available in large enough numbers to operate between Shimonoseki and Himeji by 2018. Note that JR East retired their 103 fleet a long time ago.
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Old May 17th, 2015, 07:38 PM   #412
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Note that while some of the stock may *look* old, the refurb process brings it current with new propulsion, HVAC, signaling and control systems. Tokyo Metro Eidan era trains (6000, 7000 series are a good example. Built between 1972~1988, the ones on the Honzomon and Fukutoshin lines are still running in tip top condition. The ones that aren't rebuilt in house are now in Jakarta running in their commuter system.
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Old May 19th, 2015, 05:14 PM   #413
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Old May 23rd, 2015, 11:53 PM   #414
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Speaking of Kantō area urban public transport, has JR East said anything about how ridership patterns on the Yamanote and Keihin-Tōhoku Lines between Ueno and Shinagawa Stations have changed since the opening of the Ueno-Tokyo Line back on 14 March 2015? I'm sure without having to change trains at Ueno Station just to reach Tokyo and Shinagawa Stations for trains coming in from the Takasaki, Utsunomiya (Tōhoku) and Jōban Lines, this means a reduction in overcrowding on the Yamanote and Keihin-Tōhoku Lines.
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Old May 24th, 2015, 05:48 AM   #415
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Crowding on the Ueno-Okachimachi
portion of the Yamanote/Keihin Tohoku Line has been reduced from 200% to 170% since the opening of the new line. This is 10 % more than anticipated.
http://www.nikkan.co.jp/news/nkx1520150416afaa.html
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Old May 24th, 2015, 05:22 PM   #416
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Thanks for the information.

With the Ueno-Tokyo Line now open, the ridiculous overcrowding of the Yamanote Line and Keihin-Tōhoku Line between Ueno and Shinagawa Stations have been reduced much more than JR East anticipated. Now, they've got to do the same with the Shōnan-Shinjuku Line trains (with Tokyo Metro Fukutoshin Line now hosting through service from the Seibu Ikebuburo Line, Tōbu Tōjō Line and Tokyu Toyoko Line, the JR East Saikyo Line is finally seeing some overload relief between Omiya and Shinjuku Stations).
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Old June 5th, 2015, 12:31 AM   #417
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My wife has recently returned from a trip to Tokyo. She was kind enough to take some videos of the transportation there for me. So I thought I'd share them here for you guys.



First off, we start with a level crossing outside Anamori-Inari station. This station is located on the Keikyu Airport Line in Ota ward.







And Anamori-Inari station itself.







A view of Keikyu Kamata station. This is one of the main stations in Ota ward along with JR Kamata station. The Keikyu main line and Keikyu Airport line interchange here.








A ride on the Keikyu line towards Shinagawa. She apologises for this video as it is mostly from a distance through the train window. You do get some nice skyline views at points, though. She had her luggage with her at this point, so videoing was rather difficult.







The Keikyu line through runs into the TOEI Asakusa line. Additionally, some Keisei lines also interline with the Asakusa line, so you often get rolling stock from both of these companies as well as TOEI rolling stock on the line. Here is a view of Sengakuji station and Asakusa station.

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Old June 5th, 2015, 10:05 AM   #418
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k.k.jetcar View Post

Crowding on the Ueno-Okachimachi
portion of the Yamanote/Keihin Tohoku Line has been reduced from 200% to 170% since the opening of the new line. This is 10 % more than anticipated.
http://www.nikkan.co.jp/news/nkx1520150416afaa.html
That means, instead of, let's say...

200 people per train on the Yamanote/Keihin Tohoku Lines combined between Ueno and Okachimachi

It has reduced to 170 people per train, in which it is an improvement of 30 less people. It was originally anticipated to see 180 people per train, is that what I'm looking at?
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Old June 5th, 2015, 10:22 AM   #419
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And by the way, quick question:

Of the numerous JR train stations in Tokyo, is it possible to find out the most common departure melodies played among all of them? I mean, with hundreds of stations, each of those platforms would have their own departure melody played right before departure, and there are some stations that have unique train melodies deployed... for example, on the Yamanote Line:

- Ebisu (all platforms playing the Yebisu Beer jingle, referring to the Yebisu brewing plant close by)
- Takadanobaba (both platforms playing the "Astroboy" theme as the creator of it lived close by)
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Old June 6th, 2015, 03:49 AM   #420
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fieldsofdreams View Post
That means, instead of, let's say...

200 people per train on the Yamanote/Keihin Tohoku Lines combined between Ueno and Okachimachi

It has reduced to 170 people per train, in which it is an improvement of 30 less people. It was originally anticipated to see 180 people per train, is that what I'm looking at?
I think the percentages are *originally* based on this somewhat more subjective
index(source:Japan Private Rlwys Assoc.):
100% capacity: all seats occupied, all hanging straps taken by standees, you can still grab a handhold near the doors.
150% capacity: brushing shoulders with others, but you can read a newspaper comfortably.
180% capacity: in body contact with others, but able to read a newspaper.
200% capacity: body contact with feeling of pressure, somehow can read a weekly magazine.
250%: when the train sways, unable to control your body movement autonomously. Unable to move hands.
But as the trains on the Yamanote and Keihin Tohoku line have the TIMS installed, they can get more precise passenger loadings for each car. Likely these are the numbers reported.
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