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Old July 27th, 2015, 12:02 AM   #481
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Well, a good amount of the Tokyo metro and TOEI subways are underground so I don't see the issue there... Plus there are often quite a few private lines that can have extensive underground sections - some third sector lines in Chiba are almost entirely underground!
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Old July 27th, 2015, 04:02 AM   #482
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Svartmetall View Post
some third sector lines in Chiba are almost entirely underground!
Which lines are you referring to?

The only underground private railway I can think of offhand is Minato Mirai, and that's in Kanagawa.
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Old July 27th, 2015, 09:55 AM   #483
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Tōyō Rapid Railway Line maybe. Basically it functions as the continuation of the Tokyo Metro Tozai Line.


From 42m 37s
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Old July 27th, 2015, 12:40 PM   #484
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Indeed, that is exactly what I was thinking of.
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Old July 27th, 2015, 04:00 PM   #485
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I was under the impression that the Toyo Rapid was above ground for at least a significant portion of its route.
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Old July 27th, 2015, 06:22 PM   #486
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse View Post
Yes they have the same meaning. However, some people take issue with the term subway since it initially represented an underground rail line (in English the prefix "sub" means below or under) and not all metro systems have underground sections and the ones that do may still be predominantly elevated or at grade. But of course, language changes and evolves over time, and just because a word had a particular origin doesn't mean that it will always have the exact same meaning.
This discussion is far off-topic. So I terminate it at this point with the rectification that it has less to do with the prefix sub but more with the term subway being reserved for a completely different facility.
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Old July 27th, 2015, 07:16 PM   #487
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The frequency for Shinkansen arriving at Tokyo from the south and from the north are matched pretty well, max 15 trains per hour each, but I think passenger volume on the Tokaido line may be higher on average - longer trains?

As you mention, the balance will probably shift in favor of the northern lines (Hokuriku, Joetsu, Tohoku) when the Chuo Shinkansen opens, and as the Hokuriku Shinkansen reaches Tsuruga and (eventually) Osaka, and the Tohoku Shinkansen reaches Hakodate and (eventually) Sapporo. In such a scenario, it would make a lot of sense to hand over tracks 14+15 to JR East; it looks to me like they were built with a curve on the northern end for that very reason.

Through running would be a very interesting solution, but would require most rolling stock to be replaced due to the 50hz vs 60hz issue. This is not a technical barrier since trains do exist that can run across both frequencies (the E2 and E7 can do it) but it would have to happen gradually as rolling stock is replaced anyway.

As for the Keiyo Line and Chuo Rapid at Tokyo Station, there is a long range plan to extend the Keiyo Line in a deep tunnel all the way to Mitaka with a single intermediate station at Shinjuku. This does not strike me as very realistic, a 20km tunnel through central Tokyo with just one intermediate station. Another possibility I can see would be to connect the Keiyo Line to the existing Chuo Rapid around Shinanomachi.
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Old July 27th, 2015, 07:37 PM   #488
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I think the eventual Kanazawa - Tsuruga - Osaka HSL will never be served by direct trains Tokyo - Osaka via Kanazawa. It could be more realistic this scenario: Tokyo - Nagano - Kanazawa services, and Osaka - Kanazawa - Nagano services.

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As for the Keiyo Line and Chuo Rapid at Tokyo Station, there is a long range plan to extend the Keiyo Line in a deep tunnel all the way to Mitaka with a single intermediate station at Shinjuku. This does not strike me as very realistic, a 20km tunnel through central Tokyo with just one intermediate station. Another possibility I can see would be to connect the Keiyo Line to the existing Chuo Rapid around Shinanomachi.
Source? I'm interested but skeptical.
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Old July 27th, 2015, 07:39 PM   #489
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 00Zy99 View Post
I was under the impression that the Toyo Rapid was above ground for at least a significant portion of its route.
I think you'll find almost half is underground - finding exact figures is quite hard, though. Am happy to be proven wrong.

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Old July 27th, 2015, 08:27 PM   #490
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Quote:
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I think the eventual Kanazawa - Tsuruga - Osaka HSL will never be served by direct trains Tokyo - Osaka via Kanazawa. It could be more realistic this scenario: Tokyo - Nagano - Kanazawa services, and Osaka - Kanazawa - Nagano services.
What about Nagoya-Kanazawa-Nagano services? It would certainly not go amiss to connect the north coast towns to Japans 3rd largest conurbation directly. That, however, would require the Hokuriku Shinkansen to join the Tōkaidō Shinkansen somewhere near Maibara.

As for Ōsaka-Tokyo through services. I wonder whether JR West and JR East wouldn't have at least an emergency schedule in store just in case the Tōkaidō Shinkansen is temporarily disconnected. But that would mean that the rolling stock is able to bridge the frequency gap.
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Old July 27th, 2015, 08:36 PM   #491
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I think this is better to ask in the Japan High Speed Railway thread
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Old July 27th, 2015, 08:52 PM   #492
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sr.Horn View Post
I think the eventual Kanazawa - Tsuruga - Osaka HSL will never be served by direct trains Tokyo - Osaka via Kanazawa. It could be more realistic this scenario: Tokyo - Nagano - Kanazawa services, and Osaka - Kanazawa - Nagano services.
Somehow, I don't think that Tsuruga would like that very much.
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Old July 27th, 2015, 10:18 PM   #493
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sr.Horn View Post
I think the eventual Kanazawa - Tsuruga - Osaka HSL will never be served by direct trains Tokyo - Osaka via Kanazawa. It could be more realistic this scenario: Tokyo - Nagano - Kanazawa services, and Osaka - Kanazawa - Nagano services.



Source? I'm interested but skeptical.
Check the last page of this PDF published by the Tokyo metropolitan government

http://www.metro.tokyo.jp/INET/KEIKA...A/70p36100.pdf

This is definitely something legitimately on the agenda for railway construction in the Tokyo area but I am doubtful that it will pencil out before population decline starts to take its toll. Surely you have heard that Japan is losing population - but did you know that Tokyo, and especially central Tokyo, is actually still adding people at a pretty good clip? But eventually even this will come to an end.

Tokyo Metro's declaration of "No New Lines" is further evidence of this pending demographic pressure.
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Old July 27th, 2015, 10:50 PM   #494
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Could someone please help translate or summarize this document?
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Old July 28th, 2015, 12:02 AM   #495
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 00Zy99 View Post
Could someone please help translate or summarize this document?
Here is a newer version of the document
http://www.metro.tokyo.jp/INET/KONDA...A/40p7a100.pdf

Basically the report covers the process of listing various rail improvement proposals, establishing the objectives they are trying to achieve through transportation improvements, defining the specific criteria for analyzing how well each proposal helps achieve the objectives, producing a comparison matrix showing the results of that comparison, and producing a prioritized list of railway improvements.

The rail proposals listed on PDF page 9 (report page 7)are a combination of ideas brought forward from existing long range plans (green and orange) and new proposals (blue)

The high level objectives they are trying to achieve fall into the four categories:
A. Making a city where anybody including the elderly can move around comfortably
B. Maintaining and improving the vibrancy of the city
C. Making a city that is resilient to natural disasters and environmentally friendly
D. Resolving regional challenges

They also analyze whether each project is likely to be operationally profitable and grade them on their cost-benefit ratio.

Every proposal that got an "A" grade for meeting established objectives, profitability potential, and cost-benefit ratio, (A A A in the three right columns on page 13) is pulled out and recommended for priority study and further development.

These are:
Orange 2: Line 8 (Yurakucho Line) extension from Toyosu to Sumiyoshi
Orange 6: Line 12 (Oedo Line) extension from Hikarigaoka to Oizumigakuencho
Orange 12: Tama Monorail Extension (toward Hakonegasaki)
Green 8: Tama Monorail Extension (toward Machida)
Blue 10: Central City Waterfront area metro line concept
Blue 13: Central City Shinagawa metro line concept
Blue 15: JR Haneda Airpot Access line

Next you get a series of, basically, heat maps, showing where the economic benefit of time savings would be the greatest. The units used in that map - "Thousand yen per square kilometer year" is a bit dense for me, but suffice it to say that the maps show where a particular proposal has the greatest economic benefit.

図4 through 図7 cover the three airport access alternatives analyzed: 4: kamakama line, 5: JR kamakama line, 6: new Oshiage-Tokyo-Shinagawa link between Keisei and Keikyu (reg access to Haneda) and 7: Same new Keisei-Keikyu link as 6, but showing benefit related to access to Narita. Clearly you can see there's a bigger swath of dark red for the JR proposal. The text of the report doesn't come out and say it, saying that the other proposals need to be further studied to confirm, but it basically explains why the JR proposal scores higher than the others.

図9 through 図10 compare a Yurikamome extension from the existing long range plan, to a new subway through Kachidoki, Harumi, and Ariake. Again, you can see the benefit is greater for the subway proposal so that's probably why it's getting pulled forward.

...and so on and so forth.

This was produced by the Tokyo Metropolitan Government and not the MLIT so I'm not sure whether that reduces its impact, but several MLIT representatives are listed as an "observers" on the committee that produced this report. I would say that the seven proposals listed above are almost certainly the ones most likely to move forward first.

FWIW this report doesn't cover things like grade separating existing lines, but it does cover new lines, extensions of existing lines, and significant improvements like quad tracking existing lines.
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Old July 28th, 2015, 10:42 AM   #496
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Well, all projects listed in the document:

A2 Orange
1 - Line 1 (Asakusa Line) to add Tokyo Sta.
2 - Line 8 (Yurakucho Line) extension Toyosu - Sumiyoshi
3 - Line 8 (Yurakucho Line) from Sumiyoshi, extension towards Noda City
4 - Line 9 (Chiyoda Line / Odakyu Odawara Line) quadruple track Izumitamagawa - Shin-Yurigaoka
5 - Line 11 (Hanzomon Line) extension towards Matsudo City
6 - Line 12 (Oedo Line) extension Hikarigaoka - Oizumigakuencho
7 - Keikyu Airport Line ¿branch? to JR Kamata Station
8 - JR Chuo Line quadruple track Mitaka - Tachikawa
9 - JR Keio Line extension Tokyo - Shinjuku - Mitaka
10 - JR Keio-Sobu through Line. New link between Tsudanuma and Shin-Urayasu
11 - Yurikamome extension towards Harumi to Kachidoki Sta.
12 - Tama Monorail extension to Hakonegasaki

B Green
1 - Line 9 (Chiyoda Line / Odakyu Tama Line) extension from Karakida to JR Yokohama Line towards Sagami Line
2 - Line 10 (Shinjuku Line / Keio Line) quadruple track Chofu - Sasazuka
3 - Line 12 (Oedo Line) extension from Oizumigakuencho towards JR Musashino Line
4 - New orbital line
5 - (JR) Haneda Airport new access through Tokaido Freight Line
6 - Tsukuba Express extension Akihabara - Tokyo
7 - JR Tokaido Freight Line combined freight and passengers
8 - Tama Monorail extension towards Machida
9 - Tama Monorail extension towards Hachioji

Blue
1 - Tama Monorail extension towards Koremasa
2 - Tama Monorail extension towards Itsukaichi
3 - Seibu Shinjuku Line quadruple track Shinjuku - Kamishakujii
4 - JR Hachiko Line double track
5 - JR Ome Line double track
6 - JR Itsukaichi Line double track
7 - Line 4 (Marunouchi Line Branch Line) extension
8 - JR Shinkin Freight Line combined freight and passengers
9 - JR Etchujima Freight Line combined freight and passengers
10 - Central Tokyo - Seaboard subway line
11 - Haneda Airport new access from JR Musashino Line
12 - Seibu Shinjuku Line - Line 5 (Tozai Line) through service
13 - Central Tokyo - Shinagawa subway line
14 - ¿Asakusa Line faster service Haneda <> Narita?
15 - JR Haneda Airport Access Line and link with both directions of Rinkai Line
16 - Tokyo Monorail extension towards Tokyo Station
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Old July 28th, 2015, 10:56 AM   #497
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Those look like enormous projects - especially that new orbital line, that would be fantastic as it joins up so many areas. It would compliment the Musashino and Yamanote lines perfectly.
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Old July 28th, 2015, 04:27 PM   #498
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Those look like enormous projects - especially that new orbital line, that would be fantastic as it joins up so many areas. It would compliment the Musashino and Yamanote lines perfectly.
The line is colloquially referred to as "Metro Seven" and "Eight Liner". The eastern half is "Metro Seven" since it follows Kannana Dori (Circumferential Road #7) east of Akabane through Adachi, Katsushika, and Edogawa wards. The western half is "Eight Liner" since it follows Kanpachi Dori (Circumferential Road #8) west of Akabane through Kita, Itabashi, Nerima, Suginami, and Setagaya ward. Through Ota ward, it would actually connect to the Tokyu Tamagawa line at Denenchofu, and then link up to the planned Kamakama line at Kamata, and from there, follow the Keikyu Airport Line, ending at Haneda.

It is indeed a fantastic plan, and very visionary. ridership would be very high since it serves a currently unmet need for lateral movement in this segment of Tokyo. It also follows the route of some bus lines with very high ridership. However, it would also be extremely expensive.

I could see it being implemented in phases. Edogawa would probably benefit the most since they're kind of starved for trains over there in spite of being so close to central Tokyo. The western part, maybe as far north as Ogikubo on the Chuo line, would give good bang for the buck since it would leverage the existing Tamagawa line. The northern segment might be the last to go since the transit is already pretty strong.

But as I mentioned before, looming demographic changes mean that Tokyo will eventually start to depopulate. If you build infrastructure like this, you should build it to last 100 years or more; however, if you don't have enough patrons to support it and service the debt used to build it, then you're basically going to wind up unable to maintain it. This is why I feel that, unfortunately, this plan is not likely to see the light of day, without turning the population decline around first.

Getting off subject, but one way to do this would be through liberalizing immigration. That idea is not likely to take flight any time soon, but eventually it may come down to it. (East Asian Union, anyone?) The other way is through an increase in birth rate among native Japanese, but that is difficult to achieve, and even if it did happen, would probably have less impact in Tokyo than elsewhere: who wants to have three kids bouncing off the walls in a tiny expensive apartment in Tokyo?

Last edited by orulz; July 28th, 2015 at 04:41 PM.
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Old July 28th, 2015, 09:25 PM   #499
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... and then link up to the planned Kamakama line at Kamata, and from there, follow the Keikyu Airport Line, ending at Haneda.

It is indeed a fantastic plan, and very visionary.
Sure, very visionary, but they try to align trains through the Keikyu Airport Line or with a new track. The first I think it's impossible if they want to run through Tokyu lines: different gauge.

IMO, the easiest line to put in service with a relative low cost is the JR Shinkin and JR Etchujima Freight Lines as a new North-South line in Edogawa ward. At the same time, the Etchujima Line could be the Sobu-Keiyo link.

The commuter service on the Tokaido Freight Line is interesting too serving the Kawasaki Ward in Kawasaki City. They could consider to connect the Nambu Line with this new commuter line.

The Yurikamome is an AGT, usually cheaper than conventional rail. Don't know what they don't think in a loop from Ariake Tennis Nomori to Harumi, Toyomi and close the "musubi" at Shinbashi terminal while the Toyosu end could be extended as a branch towards Shiohama and Kiba:



Cheaper comparing the projected Central Tokyo - Seaboard Subway Line

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Old July 28th, 2015, 09:46 PM   #500
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The report clearly uses economic benefit derived from time savings as its chief metric for measuring project value. A Yurikamome extension falls short on that in at least 2 resepects:
(1) Yurikamome is slow, with many stops, and follows a meandering route - meaning the time savings are less. It's a fun ride and the scenery basically can't be beat in all of Tokyo, but I would prefer something faster for my daily commute.
(2) Yurikamome requires at least 1 transfer to get to anywhere outside the immediate waterfront area, which eats time. At least 2 transfers are needed if you can't get to where you're going directly from Shinbashi or Toyosu. A subway that runs through onto an existing line would be able to reach all the destinations available on the existing line directly, and also leverage all the transfers available on the existing line for one-transfer access to much of the Tokyo area.

The more detailed map in the PDF seems to show this as an extension/branch of the Hibiya line but I must say I rather prefer the idea of an extension of the Tsukuba Express with stops at Tokyo, Ginza/Higashi-Ginza, and probably four stations in the harbor area (Kachidoki, Harumi, Shin-Toyosu, and Ariake)

The report does mention that the "Kamakama" line would need a technical solution to the gauge mismatch, but that's hardly an intractable problem: dual gauge railways are in use successfully elsewhere in Japan such as the Seikan Tunnel. Quashlo pointed out (much) earlier in this thread that Keikyu and Tokyu would also be fairly likely to cooperate in order to stand up to the new competition from JR for access to Haneda, which is an adversary they hold in common.
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