daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Subways and Urban Transport

Subways and Urban Transport Metros, subways, light rail, trams, buses and other local transport systems



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old May 29th, 2007, 04:01 PM   #61
MarkO
Registered User
 
MarkO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: London
Posts: 968
Likes (Received): 268

Bel ludovic has it absolutely right IMHO. If Leeds, Brum or Manch were in Europe they would ALREADY have at least one or two full scale underground subway lines and quite possibly several pre-metro lines as well.

Major thanks to Sarfonlad for pointing out those Preston tunnels. What an absolutely disgraceful waste of existing resources. The UK should be mortified that such potentially useful infrastructure is rotting away beneath our feet.

As Martin S suggests, even the MerseyRail tunnels were kind of an accident of geography - surely Liverpool would never have got any of that loop if there had not already been the need to traverse the river and build "underground" stations at either end?! I mean it was certainly never intended as a metro-type operation was it?

Sadly I reckon the only way the major UK conurbations will ever get any tunnels is as Justme suggests (and my original fantasy map on the front page of this discussion hints at) will be if some of the tram systems get put underground in a pre-metro styleee. But judging by the reticence to do even this (even from tram fans - look at the debate about this on the Manchester forum) I cannot see the blinkered English ever lifting their sights to do a Barcelona, Milan, Bilbao or even an Antwerp.

It makes you ashamed to be British really. :-(
MarkO no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old May 29th, 2007, 04:11 PM   #62
MarkO
Registered User
 
MarkO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: London
Posts: 968
Likes (Received): 268

Just a little add-on.
I'm not so sure the entire problem is money, Justme.

I mean there doesnt ever seem to be any problem spending money in the capital (see examples above, and CrossRail -admitedly if it ever happens - is now reckoned to cost £10bn or more)!

I think like Martin S says, if the Treasury scoff at the £350m for New St (and remember they cancelled ALL the tram schemes for petty financial reasons - Manchester only salvaging part of their expansion IMHO coz Labours conference was due there and coz GMPTE/local media put up a very well balanced fight and didnt threaten silly things like taking the Gov to court)...yes if the Treasury/Alistair Darling etc scoff at costs outside London surely we can only draw one conclusion: it is nothing more than London-centric prejudice.

So what if it does cost a billion or more to make major transport investments outside London? This is what Labour promised. What they were elected to do. Britain CAN afford these things (and thousands more people would directly benefit from that than from some £6bn plus on pointless plastic ID cards) And it's what they and all the Governments before them have neglected to do: invest outside London.

It's a crying shame (but perhaps we should indeed get the Spanish or the Koreans to build them in the UK and that would certainly cut the costs!)
MarkO no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 29th, 2007, 05:59 PM   #63
Justme
Gotta lite?
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Manchester (Forecast: Rain)
Posts: 4,952
Likes (Received): 780

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkO View Post
Just a little add-on.
I'm not so sure the entire problem is money, Justme.

I mean there doesnt ever seem to be any problem spending money in the capital (see examples above, and CrossRail -admitedly if it ever happens - is now reckoned to cost £10bn or more)!

I think like Martin S says, if the Treasury scoff at the £350m for New St (and remember they cancelled ALL the tram schemes for petty financial reasons - Manchester only salvaging part of their expansion IMHO coz Labours conference was due there and coz GMPTE/local media put up a very well balanced fight and didnt threaten silly things like taking the Gov to court)...yes if the Treasury/Alistair Darling etc scoff at costs outside London surely we can only draw one conclusion: it is nothing more than London-centric prejudice.

So what if it does cost a billion or more to make major transport investments outside London? This is what Labour promised. What they were elected to do. Britain CAN afford these things (and thousands more people would directly benefit from that than from some £6bn plus on pointless plastic ID cards) And it's what they and all the Governments before them have neglected to do: invest outside London.

It's a crying shame (but perhaps we should indeed get the Spanish or the Koreans to build them in the UK and that would certainly cut the costs!)
The London centric argument could still be linked to money. Afterall, if there are only so much funds to build this infrastructure, and they could only afford to build underground transport in one city, then logic may assume that the largest, densest, most populated and financially strongest city should get it.

To be honest, it's not like the government has spent a great deal recently on London either. Crossrail still hasn't started, and this is something that is terribly needed. And the London Underground is in dire need for investment.

Still, I believe these other major northern cities should also have money spent on them for an underground system of some type. But I believe the problem lies in the fact that there is not much money, and what there is is being spent on the biggest city first.
__________________
I'm doing my bit to save bandwidth by deleting my signature
Justme no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 29th, 2007, 10:38 PM   #64
sarflonlad
Registered User
 
sarflonlad's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: London
Posts: 1,086
Likes (Received): 68

My God, those Preston tunnels! There's potential there - but they look at a bit too small to take trams/trains in both directions. I seriously hope if they were in a bigger city sense would prevail that they'd be taken advantage of.

Nottingham has a similar railway under its city. Unfortunately it's part blocked now by the foundations of a hideous shopping centre. Shame because very possibly it could have been used for one of their future light rail lines which look certain to be built.
sarflonlad no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 29th, 2007, 10:40 PM   #65
sarflonlad
Registered User
 
sarflonlad's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: London
Posts: 1,086
Likes (Received): 68

Quote:
Major thanks to Sarfonlad for pointing out those Preston tunnels. What an absolutely disgraceful waste of existing resources. The UK should be mortified that such potentially useful infrastructure is rotting away beneath our feet.
It was Accura actually.
sarflonlad no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 30th, 2007, 05:37 AM   #66
Zaqattaq
Registered User
 
Zaqattaq's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Los Angeles, California
Posts: 3,015
Likes (Received): 76

Very interesting photos there Accura
Zaqattaq no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 31st, 2007, 12:22 AM   #67
MarkO
Registered User
 
MarkO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: London
Posts: 968
Likes (Received): 268

OOOOPS!

Je m'excuse,as the lovely French say, sorry Accura! Nonetheless a fantasic post from you re: the Preston tunnels. And interesting to hear there are a few knocking about under Nottingham. I only wish the Government could share sarfonlads optimism that they might ever get used :-(

And to reply to Justme; you make a good case of course, and like many people have said; no-one is denying that London needs excellent transport infrastructure, BUT in the supposed "4th most important economy in the world" I just can't see why a proportionately similar amount of other money rarely gets spent outside London.

I'm sure some MP or other has asked this question (need to check Hansard probably) but subsidised by Europe or not, most western Euro cities (even in the supposedly highly "centralised" France) have spent time, effort and money in their big urban areas outside the capital. Britain's f*****d it up!

Sorry to be so blunt but, it's simply the case that with one or two notable exceptions (Newcastle/Glasgow) subway and light rail investment has not been enought in evidence in the UK (despite the hard fought battles of GMPTE/WYPTE etc) which is a blinking crying shame, to put it mildly!

However despite the whingeing, I for one remain optimistic! My money is on the card that all these urban rail schemes will ONE day get the cash; you know why? Coz we have few other alternatives when climate change kicks in properly and the oil age is replaced by....well a renewable-energy-source-age of some kind. "Renergy Age"?! Perhaps?!

"Earth to Mark, Earth to Mark! wake up and smell the coffee nuthead!" (Sorry paraphrasing Homer Simpson there!). Red wine is VERY cheap in France right now! ;-) Hic!
MarkO no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 2nd, 2007, 02:52 AM   #68
Martin S
Registered User
 
Martin S's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 10,216
Likes (Received): 3139

Merseytravel is at last to carry out studies into reusing the Waterloo and Wapping Tunnels that run from Edge Hill station on the eastern outskirts of the city centre to the waterfront (formerly to old goods depots). Reopening the tunnels, along with some new connecting tunnels could connect the Merseyrail City Line to the underground network and allow through running between St Helens and Southport.

Also, with the large developments planned for the old disused Central Docks, re-use of the Waterloo tunnel could permit a rail (or even monorail) connection to Edge Hill and the national rail network.
__________________
Martin S no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 2nd, 2007, 09:10 AM   #69
Justme
Gotta lite?
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Manchester (Forecast: Rain)
Posts: 4,952
Likes (Received): 780

any maps or drawings that would show the routes (especially if added onto the current system)?
__________________
I'm doing my bit to save bandwidth by deleting my signature
Justme no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 2nd, 2007, 01:23 PM   #70
Alargule
Res Uder et Siger
 
Alargule's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 8,204
Likes (Received): 2080

Quote:
Originally Posted by Accura View Post
One thing that is frustrating about transport in the UK is how bad it is now compared to what it USED to be. Almost every town and city had a tramway or something similar. And railways too. Look at Glasgow... despite having a fairly extensive underground railway network (by UK standards) it has HUGE amounts of disused tunnels that could easily be converted back into suburban railway lines. Its a similar story for the rest of the country. My own city, Preston, relatively small, has a stupid amount of disused railway infrastructure in the city centre alone, including an abandoned tram tunnel and railway tunnel running directly beneath the city centre:

(...)

Such a waste
Wow, that's very impressive! What was this tunnel used for? A mainline? Trams? Local railway?
__________________
Nu op Wordpress: Rails in Amsterdam
Alargule no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 2nd, 2007, 03:24 PM   #71
Tubeman
Jubilation
 
Tubeman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: London SE15
Posts: 18,973
Likes (Received): 3271

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dee Hinnov View Post
Wow, that's very impressive! What was this tunnel used for? A mainline? Trams? Local railway?
It was originally part of a mainline branch line to the town of Longridge to the north-east of Preston, also serving Deepdale, Ribbleton and Grimsargh. It remained open to freight as far as Deepdale until the 1990's, and is now abandoned throughout.

Preston and Longridge Railway
Tubeman no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 3rd, 2007, 01:06 AM   #72
Martin S
Registered User
 
Martin S's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 10,216
Likes (Received): 3139

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justme View Post
any maps or drawings that would show the routes (especially if added onto the current system)?
This old map shows the routes that are being considered:



There are three routes that fan out westward from Edge Hill. The centre one is the route to Lime Street that is still in use today and is mainly in cutting. The top one is the Waterloo / Victoria tunnel to the closed Waterloo Goods Depot and the bottom one is the Wapping tunnel to the closed Wapping Goods Depot.

It is the Waterloo and Wapping tunnels that are being considered for reopening. Since that map was drawn, the lines to Central and Exchange high level stations have been linked together with a tunnel under central Liverpool and both high level stations closed. This has formed the main trunk route of the Northern Line which you can see in the modern system map below:



The original idea when the modern Merseyrail system was being developed was to drive a tunnel from just south of Liverpool Central Low Level to the Wapping Tunnel. Later plans called for the Waterloo / Victoria tunnel to be used instead, which would allow a new underground station for Liverpool University. Access to Edge Hill would mean that trains from St Helens and Wigan could be able to connect into the underground network.

The new plans might involve opening new routes from Edge Hill to the waterfront. The area near where the old Waterloo Goods Depot was located is now earmarked for a £5.5 billion office and residential development that will attract a lot of traffic.

Another scheme that has been considered for a long time is the re-opening to passenger services of the old Edge Hill to Canada Dock branch, which would connect into the Northern Line north of Sandhills. That would allow stations such as Spellow to be re-opened and also provide a service to the new Liverpool Football Club stadium.
__________________
Martin S no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 3rd, 2007, 01:25 AM   #73
Salif
Registered User
 
Salif's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,809
Likes (Received): 337

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkO View Post
If Leeds, Brum or Manch were in Europe
They are in Europe, think what you mean to say is "if they were anywhere else in Europe".
Salif no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 3rd, 2007, 09:57 AM   #74
Justme
Gotta lite?
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Manchester (Forecast: Rain)
Posts: 4,952
Likes (Received): 780

Thanks Martin S for the maps. It's still a bit hard to visualize, as I tried to superimpose the routes on the newer map in my mind, but I get the idea (I think).

It would be really great to use these old tunnels again. So much work went into their construction and it is a waste to let them die like this.

I hope that Liverpool and Merseyrail get the opportunity to reopen them at some stage.

Liverpool also sadly lost the elevated rail along the docks. This would be so successful now, especially as the docks are re-emerging with new vigour as housing, business and entertainment area's. It would be great to see it rebuilt, but I doubt that would ever happen
__________________
I'm doing my bit to save bandwidth by deleting my signature
Justme no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 3rd, 2007, 09:00 PM   #75
Martin S
Registered User
 
Martin S's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 10,216
Likes (Received): 3139

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justme View Post
Thanks Martin S for the maps. It's still a bit hard to visualize, as I tried to superimpose the routes on the newer map in my mind, but I get the idea (I think).

It would be really great to use these old tunnels again. So much work went into their construction and it is a waste to let them die like this.

I hope that Liverpool and Merseyrail get the opportunity to reopen them at some stage.

Liverpool also sadly lost the elevated rail along the docks. This would be so successful now, especially as the docks are re-emerging with new vigour as housing, business and entertainment area's. It would be great to see it rebuilt, but I doubt that would ever happen
The Liverpool Overhead Railway closed in 1956. It used to run from an underground station at Dingle in the south to Seaforth Sands in the north (you can see it on that old map in my last post). It was an electic railway from inception and was very similar in construction and operation to a New York El.



The line was built to ease congestion on the busy dock road and would have been full of ships crews, dock workers and businessmen in its heyday. Passenger traffic began to reduce with the introduction of motor buses, the reduction in the number of messengers due to the telephone and a general reduction in traffic in the port. There was also a severe corrosion problem that would have cost many millions to resolve in the 1950s.

If ever rebuilt, the line would be a great tourist attraction but I doubt that it would carry too many passengers due to there not being so much of a need nowadays for travel along the dockside.

However, the new Museum of Liverpool is to incorporate a section of Overhead Railway structure and one of the old carriages as part of a permanent exhibition. There are also ambitious plans to incorporate a monorail into the huge Liverpool Waters office and residential development of the Central Docks. The company proposing this scheme are also considering extending the monorail to Liverpool John Lennon Airport in the south of the city.
__________________
Martin S no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 3rd, 2007, 09:09 PM   #76
Tubeman
Jubilation
 
Tubeman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: London SE15
Posts: 18,973
Likes (Received): 3271


I love that photo of the LOR... It really could be New York or Chicago

The closure of the LOR was the biggest loss to the UK's transport heritage second only to Dr Beeching's wholesale destruction of the mainline rail network in the 1960's.
Tubeman no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 4th, 2007, 07:14 PM   #77
Songoten2554
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Miami Florida
Posts: 1,063
Likes (Received): 87

are they bringing back subways and Light Rail in the UK as far as i heard

and why did Dr Breeching took alway alot of the Railways? i mean thats werid i would never do something like that

i think there should be a balance of Railways and Roads (highways), and Airports and also Seaports for great Transportation networks but it makes me mad that this person took alway alot of the Railways network
Songoten2554 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 4th, 2007, 11:00 PM   #78
Martin S
Registered User
 
Martin S's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 10,216
Likes (Received): 3139

Quote:
Originally Posted by Songoten2554 View Post
are they bringing back subways and Light Rail in the UK as far as i heard

and why did Dr Breeching took alway alot of the Railways? i mean thats werid i would never do something like that

i think there should be a balance of Railways and Roads (highways), and Airports and also Seaports for great Transportation networks but it makes me mad that this person took alway alot of the Railways network
Beeching inherited a system with a lot of duplication of routes and many rural lines that carried very few passengers and were completely uneconomical. In the early 60s, for example there were three terminal stations in Liverpool offering services to Manchester. All this came about because Britain's rail network was originally developed by a large number of competing companies.

Beeching would have like to cut far more lines than he did. However, he did not start the closure process, which had been going on from before WWII and he should be credited with the modern inter-city network and the fast freight services that he helped develop.

It is sad to realise that you could once travel to some of the remotest villages by train but, at least we have a thriving preservation movement in Britain that has reopened many rural lines closed under Beeching.
__________________
Martin S no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 5th, 2007, 03:30 AM   #79
Tubeman
Jubilation
 
Tubeman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: London SE15
Posts: 18,973
Likes (Received): 3271

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin S View Post
Beeching inherited a system with a lot of duplication of routes and many rural lines that carried very few passengers and were completely uneconomical. In the early 60s, for example there were three terminal stations in Liverpool offering services to Manchester. All this came about because Britain's rail network was originally developed by a large number of competing companies.

Beeching would have like to cut far more lines than he did. However, he did not start the closure process, which had been going on from before WWII and he should be credited with the modern inter-city network and the fast freight services that he helped develop.

It is sad to realise that you could once travel to some of the remotest villages by train but, at least we have a thriving preservation movement in Britain that has reopened many rural lines closed under Beeching.
Beeching went far too far. Many lines had to go, granted, through being duplicates or completely under-used, but many many towns of quite some size lost their rail links which was a travesty... Mansfield (pop 70,000, station re-opened 1995), Gosport (pop 70,000), Corby (pop 50,000), Daventry, Wisbech, Witney (all pop 20,000). Other strategic routes like Carlisle - Edinburgh, Spalding - Boston, Grimsby - Spilsby via Louth, the Woodhead tunnel and Uckfield - Lewes were closed and vast tracts of rural Britain were left tens of miles from the nearest railway.
Tubeman no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 5th, 2007, 05:12 AM   #80
Songoten2554
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Miami Florida
Posts: 1,063
Likes (Received): 87

wow that was harsh that Breeching did i am amazed but i am glad there is still railways in England

but i want to know something is there going to be new Light Rail or subway that will be constructed outside of London?
Songoten2554 no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 08:30 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium