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Old November 10th, 2013, 12:57 AM   #201
Azer_Akhundov
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One more rendering of "Avtovağzal" station with different color scheme:



http://metro.gov.az/uploaded/file/2013.pdf
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Old November 10th, 2013, 08:09 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by Woonsocket54 View Post
Baku is an insanely rich city, though, with all of those petrodollars flowing in by the barrel.
Indeed. We need to just wait until someone from international manufacturer (not just Russian) opened new train factory in the Caucaus mountains.
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Old November 12th, 2013, 11:20 AM   #203
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Because it's much cheaper than the European trains. It's a post-Soviet heritage. Not every post-Soviet city with the metro system have enough money to buy trains from Alstom or Siemens. That depends on the economy of country and profits from users
Actually, this particular train is more expensive than Siemens trains. Crazy, isn't it
Makes you wonder why Baku chose them. Transparency was never a big thing in Baku
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Old November 12th, 2013, 12:36 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by mavis_dark View Post
Actually, this particular train is more expensive than Siemens trains. Crazy, isn't it
Makes you wonder why Baku chose them. Transparency was never a big thing in Baku

We also must never forget the legendary robustness of trains produced on Russian influenced markets.
Electronics in modern ""western"" trains could be a weak point, speccially when considering the weather conditions and crowds during long period of times in the day.
We also have to think that at least Alstom and Siemens have made strong ""agreements/partnership"" with Russian manufacturers, coming with some ""western"" technologies but still considering the necessary experience of the Russain influenced markets.
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Old November 12th, 2013, 12:43 PM   #205
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Don't need to forget about cost of the further maintenance and repairment of trains. As example - for opening of Almaty Metro in Kazakhstan (2011) were purchased Hyundai trains. At last year one of these trains was broken, and Koreans refused to pay for repairment.
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Old November 12th, 2013, 12:50 PM   #206
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I agree, your comment is valid as it has a long term view, which sometimes our decision makers are forgetting !!
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Old November 12th, 2013, 03:05 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by AlekseyVT View Post
Don't need to forget about cost of the further maintenance and repairment of trains. As example - for opening of Almaty Metro in Kazakhstan (2011) were purchased Hyundai trains. At last year one of these trains was broken, and Koreans refused to pay for repairment.
I should tell my father to switch from his new Toyota to one of russian made "cars"
Baku has billions. They could at least spend part of it to purchase decent western( or, which is even better, Japanese) trains and maintenance depot.
So, I think your arguments are baseless.
Furthermore, during testing, Russian trains broke several time.
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Old November 12th, 2013, 03:06 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by Pierre50 View Post
I agree, your comment is valid as it has a long term view, which sometimes our decision makers are forgetting !!
As a long term strategy, it would be better to switch to a more modern and reliable technology. Especially, if you can afford it.
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Old November 12th, 2013, 03:12 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by AlekseyVT View Post
At last year one of these trains was broken, and Koreans refused to pay for repairment.
Don't make stuff up please.
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Old November 12th, 2013, 05:59 PM   #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mavis_dark View Post
I should tell my father to switch from his new Toyota to one of russian made "cars"
Stupid argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mavis_dark View Post
Baku has billions. They could at least spend part of it to purchase decent western( or, which is even better, Japanese) trains and maintenance depot.
So, I think your arguments are baseless.
Do you know such term as "the rational using of money"? May be, it's better to use these billions for more important things for population instead of such senseless show-off?
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Old November 12th, 2013, 06:09 PM   #211
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Please keep this discussion civil. Do you have sources for your claims that we can all peruse so we can make up our own minds?
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Old November 13th, 2013, 08:49 AM   #212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlekseyVT View Post
Stupid argument.
For anyone else who read it it didn't seem stupid. Only you
Truly beautiful mind you have, Gagarin


Quote:
Originally Posted by AlekseyVT View Post
Do you know such term as "the rational using of money"? May be, it's better to use these billions for more important things for population instead of such senseless show-off?
Yes I know it. That's why Toyota, and not that other crap.
I'd like to see valid arguments from you, but alas it is not gonna happen apparently.
Firs you claimed that Russian trains are cheaper, but after I said that they are actually more expensive, you jumped to another facile argument.
Answer me, isn't it better to buy a newer, more modern technology which is not so prone to breaking(as Russian trains are, which broke dozen of times during testing in Baku), than buying some second rate product?
Important for population? So you know the situation with Azerbaijani budget better than I do, don't you? Billions are already spend on useless stuff, they could have at least spend it on better products.
Your show-off comment is also interesting. After all, hard to find a better example of showing off than Russia
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Old November 13th, 2013, 08:54 AM   #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Svartmetall View Post
Please keep this discussion civil. Do you have sources for your claims that we can all peruse so we can make up our own minds?
http://abc.az/eng/news/72504.html
Unfortunately most of the information either in Azerbaijani or Russian.
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Old November 13th, 2013, 09:30 AM   #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mavis_dark View Post
For anyone else who read it it didn't seem stupid. Only you
Did you ask everyone who read my post? If not, you have high self-esteem.

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Originally Posted by mavis_dark View Post
I should tell my father to switch from his new Toyota to one of russian made "cars"

Yes I know it. That's why Toyota, and not that other crap.
You should tell Americans to switch from Russian space technologies to Japanese or German ones

But this thread is not about car or space industries, it's about Metro technologies. That's why your post is no more than attempt to turn discussion aside.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mavis_dark View Post
I'd like to see valid arguments from you, but alas it is not gonna happen apparently.
I don't see any arguments from you except "we should looks like West because it became fashionable".

Quote:
Originally Posted by mavis_dark View Post
First you claimed that Russian trains are cheaper, but after I said that they are actually more expensive, you jumped to another facile argument.
You are clearly lying. When did I claimed that "Russian trains are cheaper"?

I claim that Baku Metro was built according to Russian technical standarts, Azeri train drivers have experience of work with Russian trains, they have long-standing contacts with manufacturing company. Therefore, I guess Russian producers can better provide technical base and technical support for own trains. Perhaps, it will be easier for employees of Baku Metro to maintain new trains and to use standartized details in the case of repairment.

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Originally Posted by mavis_dark View Post
Answer me, isn't it better to buy a newer, more modern technology which is not so prone to breaking(as Russian trains are, which broke dozen of times during testing in Baku), than buying some second rate product?
You should better to ask Azeri authorities about this issue. And who can give you guarantee that "more modern technology" (according what crieria, by the way?) will not breaking during testing trips? In any case, it need some time for drivers to adapt to new technics. I guess if officials finally decide to buy these trains, it's mean that results of testing were satisfactory for them.
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Old November 13th, 2013, 11:09 AM   #215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlekseyVT View Post
Did you ask everyone who read my post? If not, you have high self-esteem.
It was not about your post
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlekseyVT View Post
You should tell Americans to switch from Russian space technologies to Japanese or German ones .
But this thread is not about car or space industries, it's about Metro technologies. That's why your post is no more than attempt to turn discussion aside.
We are not buying rockets.We are buying trains


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Originally Posted by AlekseyVT View Post

I don't see any arguments from you except "we should looks like West because it became fashionable".
No, because they make better stuff. That's all. Nothing else to it , really

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlekseyVT View Post
You are clearly lying. When did I claimed that "Russian trains are cheaper"?

I claim that Baku Metro was built according to Russian technical standarts, Azeri train drivers have experience of work with Russian trains, they have long-standing contacts with manufacturing company. Therefore, I guess Russian producers can better provide technical base and technical support for own trains. Perhaps, it will be easier for employees of Baku Metro to maintain new trains and to use standartized details in the case of repairment.
Ok, my mistake here you didn't claim they were cheaper.
The fact that they are better with an old technology doesn't mean we have to stick with it.
Should I keep using rear projection tv just because it is cheaper?
As I said earlier, if we have the resources it would be wiser to switch to a better technology.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AlekseyVT View Post

You should better to ask Azeri authorities about this issue. And who can give you guarantee that "more modern technology" (according what crieria, by the way?) will not breaking during testing trips? In any case, it need some time for drivers to adapt to new technics. I guess if officials finally decide to buy these trains, it's mean that results of testing were satisfactory for them.
Why they are better? There is a thing called google. You can search and find out the market share by companies. Alstom, Siemens, Bombardier, Kawasaki and, imagine it, no Russian companies I guess they are biased too.
You don't get it do you? Our government is spending billions to other useless stuff. They could channel into buying better technology, and setting up domestic production.
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Old November 13th, 2013, 12:07 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by Woonsocket54 View Post
Baku is an insanely rich city, though, with all of those petrodollars flowing in by the barrel.
That's what i thought when i first saw the luxury finishing of the stations, with marble everywhere.
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Old November 13th, 2013, 12:58 PM   #217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mavis_dark View Post
We are not buying rockets. We are buying trains.
Baku Metro not buying Toyota cars. They are buying trains (AFAIK, Toyota is not producer of Metro trains). That's why your comment was stupid and out of place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mavis_dark View Post
Don't make stuff up please.
If you prefer to ignore information about breakage of new Hyundai train in Almaty Metro just after one year of exploitation, there is information about problems with exploitation of new Hyundai railway trains in Ukraine. The problems in the beginning of exploitation of new rolling stock (even made according to Western standarts) is not critical thing, and it can be solved with experience.

http://fakty.ictv.ua/ru/index/read-news/id/1466176

Quote:
Originally Posted by mavis_dark View Post
The fact that they are better with an old technology doesn't mean we have to stick with it.
Should I keep using rear projection tv just because it is cheaper?
As I said earlier, if we have the resources it would be wiser to switch to a better technology.
It's possible to think that all models of home appliances in your house (TV apparature, PC, refrigarator, washing machine, etc) were made according to latest technology, highly ranked by experts and won several prizes at international exhibitions.

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Originally Posted by mavis_dark View Post
No, because they make better stuff. That's all. Nothing else to it , really

Ok, my mistake here you didn't claim they were cheaper.

Why they are better? There is a thing called google. You can search and find out the market share by companies. Alstom, Siemens, Bombardier, Kawasaki and, imagine it, no Russian companies I guess they are biased too.
You don't get it do you? Our government is spending billions to other useless stuff. They could channel into buying better technology, and setting up domestic production.
What exactly do you mean under such terms as "modern technologies" or "better stuff"? How it matches actual technical standards of Baku Metro system? What price or their exploitation during lifetime? I see you prefer to ignore all these questions and to use typical cliches.

Sorry, but further discussion is senseless. Good luck!
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Last edited by AlekseyVT; November 13th, 2013 at 01:26 PM.
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Old November 13th, 2013, 04:16 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by AlekseyVT View Post


Sorry, but further discussion is senseless. Good luck!
Of course it is senseless.
I have a proposition. Azerbaijan is renovating its railway system and is in search of a rail stock manufacturer. By your logic, we should go with Russian manufacturer. After all, our drivers and engineers are used to them. The hell with Alstom and Stadler and etc.
We have to stick with your engineering feats till the end of times How about that?
Also, our flagship carrier AZAL is looking to buy new planes. They opted for Boeing Dreamliner. Little did they know that AlekseyTV here has a way better solution for them. After all, our pilots and engineers are used to old Russian plains.
Cheers
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Old November 13th, 2013, 10:38 PM   #219
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C'mon guys, I see here emotions rather than common sense.

First of all, nobody here has the actual price Baku is going to pay for these metro trains. Another thing - nobody here has statistics of reliability of Russian trains.

Personally I expect the following reasons:
1) Relatively good price
2) Ease of communication including after-sale service.
3) Relatively good specifications and quality.

I use these trains daily in Moscow and, having experience of other trains used in Europe, I can say that all-in-all they are not worse than the majority of currently used trains in Europe.

Best regards, Alex.

PS: Hope that the discussion would stop being rude as above. Thank you.
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Old November 14th, 2013, 04:06 AM   #220
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mavis_dark View Post
As I said earlier, if we have the resources it would be wiser to switch to a better technology.
Maybe, in Hollywood films, every russian product is a crap, unreliable, heavy uneconomic... But in practice, it is not so simple.

Example 1: Lada Niva is maybe the cheapest jeap in the world, but in very harsh winter conditions (february 2012. in Serbia), Lada Niva was the most relible vehicle in Serbia. I know an example, when serbian made tractor with trailer fell into the mud, another tractor couldn't get it from the mud, but Lada Niva could.

Example 2: Liaz busses are maybe the cheapest busses in Europe, but maybe the biggest crap. In Serbia, a lot of companies chose those busses to just cut the expencies.

Example 3: Serbian Railways ordered the railbusses from Russia RA-2. But RA-2 in Serbia is much different then in Russia, and it has a lot of German equipment. That german/russian hybrid has a lot of technical problems, unusual for only russian made RA-2, but Russians solved them in first year. The most of problems vas with Voith transmission. But, there was some very stupid mistakes. Fo example, bike racks was putted one oposite to oder, and if you put the bikes on both sides, you cannot pass if you are not very thin. The doors on toiletes are very weak. Noise level is higher than on old trains. But after all, it was cheaper then any train on market.

I was five years ago in maintance facilities of Yekaterinburg marshaling yard, and I was surprised how it was clean there, unusual for me.

For bying any new technology, it is necessary to organize the transfer of knowledge. One of very needed things is a language. If you buy Siemens trains, responseable Azer engineers must know German language, and pass the german education program for maintance.
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