BOEING | 787 News & Discussion

[New York Yankee]

Originally Posted by Cheese Mmmmmmmmmmmm

Can someone give me a timeline of when:

- First flight
- First delivery of fuselage by the modified 747
- First plane wholly built

Thx

First Flight: 2007
First delivery of fuselage by the modified 747: i don't know
First plane wholly built: 2008

[MCarr]

After the 787 design disapointment Im not surprised if that fuel savings that Boeings claims for the 787 are also a... disapointment!

[New York Yankee]

i've heard that the airbus a380 is 20% cheaper per seat than a normal airplane, and the boeing 787 is 20% cheaper per seat than the a380.

so boeings 787 is around 40% cheaper than a normal airplane (like the 767)!

[MCarr]

says who?

[New York Yankee]

Originally Posted by MCarr

says who?

i've forget who had said that.
but i think i read it or something on the internet...

[Cheese Mmmmmmmmmmmm]

Originally Posted by MCarr

After the 787 design disapointment Im not surprised if that fuel savings that Boeings claims for the 787 are also a... disapointment!

Where'd you hear this?

[Nephasto]

Originally Posted by New York Yankee

and the boeing 787 is 20% cheaper per seat than the a380.

I highly doubt that... Not because I don't believe the 787 will be extremelly fuel eficient (it will for sure), but just because the 380 is much bigger, which means the costs per seat are much lower than on smaller jets.

[New York Yankee]

Originally Posted by Cheese Mmmmmmmmmmmm

Where'd you hear this?

i don't know, but i can check the history of my pc...

[STR]

Originally Posted by Nephasto

I highly doubt that... Not because I don't believe the 787 will be extremelly fuel eficient (it will for sure), but just because the 380 is much bigger, which means the costs per seat are much lower than on smaller jets.

I've actually been in another discussion in an aviation forum, and most of those guys (many of whom fly or have flown airliners) have said the 787 could have comparable economy to the A380. Though, no one thought the oft-quoted 20% savings would apply to 787 vs A380.

However, this all depends on the following:
A) A verly low maintainence design for the 787.
B) Engines that really do consume far less fuel than the massive turbofans that power the A380.
C) A faster turnaround time for the 787 (including the rapid load and unloading of passengers)
D) Ugly stewardesses on the 787 that don't get paid as much.

But there's no way to tell until both aircraft of gone through operational testing.

[Nephasto]

Originally Posted by STR

have said the 787 could have comparable economy to the A380.

That's possible. It's just like you said... we must wait and see.

Originally Posted by STR

D) Ugly stewardesses on the 787 that don't get paid as much.

[Cheese Mmmmmmmmmmmm]

Travel Daily News
Thursday, May 12, 2005


Boeing and Japan Airlines (JAL) completed contracts for 30 Boeing 787 Dreamliners and 30 Next-Generation 737-800 passenger airplanes, agreements worth $5.3 billion at list prices. JAL also has options for 20 more 787s and 10 more 737s.

Japan Airlines sees the 787 Dreamliner as its next generation mid-sized twin aisle airplane, replacing Boeing 767s and Airbus A300-600s. The 737s will replace and expand JAL`s single-aisle fleet. JAL announced it had selected the 787 last December and the 737 in February.

"This is a very special day for Boeing and Japan Airlines, two great companies that are working together to build the future and who share a solid understanding of the aviation market," said Boeing Commercial Airplanes Vice President for Sales Larry Dickenson. "The 787 will provide JAL the best in efficiency, economics, and reliability for medium-to-long-range operations, and the 737 provides the lowest operating costs with the best reliability in its class."

JAL is one of 20 airlines that have announced orders and commitments for 255 Dreamliners. Completing the JAL agreement brings to 112 the number of 787s under firm contract. The 787 will be the key airplane on several of JAL`s domestic and international routes. The 787 will "provide outstanding flexibility in route planning and a wonderful flying experience for passengers," according to Japan Airlines.

The airline selected the 737 because of its confidence in the airplane`s technology, flexibility, reliability, and economic and environmental performance.

The 787 family includes three airplanes seating 200 to 300 passengers that fly between 3,500 and 8,500 nautical miles (6,500 to 16,000 kilometers). The 787 will use 20 percent less fuel than today`s comparable airplanes and will offer passengers a new interior environment with higher humidity levels, wider seats and aisles, larger windows, and other conveniences.

Boeing launched the 787 in April 2004. Production will begin in 2006. First flight is expected in 2007 with certification, delivery and entry into service in 2008.

The Next-Generation 737 features the newest technology in its class and is the category leader in reliability and operating costs. The 737-800 generates more revenue than the A320 by carrying up to 12 more passengers and approximately one-half ton more cargo. Its industry-leading reliability rate, fuel efficient performance, and quick turn-around time make it ideal for airlines around the world.

[Cheese Mmmmmmmmmmmm]

MOSCOW, May 16 (RIA Novosti) - Russia is to be the principal partner for the United States' Boeing corporation in designing the new Boeing 787 Dremliner, Boeing international contacts vice-president and regional president for Russia and the CIS Sergei Kravchenko said at the Dreamliner show presentation on Monday.

"Hundreds of Russian engineers from the Moscow-based Boeing design center handle about 30% of designing the fuselage nose cone and about a third of the pylons of the Dreamliner. Half of them are made of composite materials," he said.

According to Kravchenko, Boeing has signed an over $3 million contract with the Central Aerohydrodynamic Institute (TsAGI) for making an experimental test bench for static and dynamic tests of life-size fuselage panels of the new plane.

"The Russian test bench will test eight fuselage panels of composites for the Boeing 787," he said.

The TsAGI facility will reproduce all the complicated load modes of the real fuselage in service, he said.

Within the Dreamliner program, Boeing also cooperates with the Russian Academy of Sciences and All-Russian Aviation Materials Institute (VIAM).

The advantage of Russia boasting unique intellectual potential in information technologies and research is the reason why Boeing cooperates with the Russian aviation industry for the Dreamliner, Kravchenko stressed.

The volume of the market of the Dreamliner, which is to replace the 767 model, is estimated at 3,500 planes in the next 20 years.

Russia-Boeing Dreamliner cooperation is underway within the framework of the agreement signed in November 2004 between the Russian Industry and Energy Ministry and the Boeing company.

[hkskyline]

Japanese to develop 35 percent of Boeing 787 Dreamliner

TOKYO, May 26 (AFP) - Boeing signed an agreement Thursday to give Japanese heavy engineering firms 35 percent of the construction of the next-generation 787 Dreamliner on which the US aviation giant is staking its future.

Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, Fuji Heavy Industries, and Kawasaki Heavy Industries signed the deal which they hailed as a boost for the aerospace engineering industry in Japan.

Signing the agreement, Boeing vice president Mike Bair said Mitsubishi will be the first outside company to build wings of a Boeing aircraft.

Details and financial terms of the deal were not disclosed.

Boeing has received orders and commitments for 261 Dreamliners from 21 airlines around the world for the fuel-efficient jet which faces a tough challenge from the A350 of rival European company Airbus.

Boeing plans to deliver the first batch of 95 Dreamliners in 2008 through 2009, Bair said.

Japan showed an early interest in the Dreamliner, with its top two carriers All Nippon Airways and Japan Airlines ordering a combined 80 of the planes.

Mitsubishi Heavy has already announced investment of 80 billion yen (770 million dollars) to build wings for the Dreamliner, with about half the funds used to set up a new factory in Nagoya.

Japan's Bridgestone will also make the tires for the 787 as it has for earlier Boeing planes.

The Japanese participation had led to allegations by the European Union that Japan was indirectly subsidising the Dreamliner project.

[hkskyline]

Shanghai Airlines shareholders approve purchase of nine Boeing B787 aircraft
01 June 2005

BEIJING (AFX) - Regional carrier Shanghai Airlines Co Ltd (SHA 600591) said its shareholders have approved a proposal to buy nine B787 aircraft from Boeing Co.

The airline said earlier that the catalog price for a B787 is 120 mln usd and it expects to gradually take delivery of the 787s within the five years starting from 2008.

Separately, Shanghai Airlines said its proposal to seek a one-year loan of 200 mln yuan from Shanghai Alliance Investment Ltd, a state-owned investment firm, has also been approved by its shareholders.

No further details were provided.

Shanghai Airlines said several days ago that it has postponed a plan to raise 600 mln yuan via a 150 mln yuan-denominated shares issue, mainly due to the country's slumping stock markets.

Shanghai Airlines booked a 49.38 mln yuan loss for the first quarter, compared with a 47.08 mln net profit a year earlier on the back of higher jet fuel costs.

[hkskyline]

American Airlines CEO : Not Eager To Buy New Boeing Jet
8 June 2005

DALLAS (AP)--American Airlines is unlikely to buy Boeing Co.'s (BA) next jetliner until the money-losing carrier returns to profitability and can get better credit terms, American's chief executive said Wednesday.

Gerard Arpey said American considers the Boeing 787 Dreamliner, due out in 2008, 'a very intriguing airplane,' but added that American likes to pass on the first model of new jets.

Arpey made the comments during an investors' conference. He also emphatically renewed American's vow to fight an effort by rival Southwest Airlines Co. (LUV) to make long-haul flights from Dallas Love Field, which would compete with American's flights at nearby Dallas-Fort Worth International Airport.

Arpey accused Dallas-based Southwest of trying to exploit its 'monopoly' at Love Field, where flights are limited to Texas and seven nearby states by a 1979 law called the Wright Amendment.

'Southwest can start tomorrow from DFW and compete with American, and I suspect if the Wright Amendment isn't repealed, that's what they'll do,' Arpey said.

Although American's parent, Fort Worth-based AMR Corp. (AMR), has lost more than $7 billion since the beginning of 2001, it has one of the strongest balance sheets in the U.S. airline industry, prompting an analyst to ask Arpey whether American would buy the Boeing 787 Dreamliner.

Last month, Northwest Airlines Corp. (NWAC) announced it would buy 18 787s - at a cost of $2.2 billion - for long flights and buy options for another 50.

Arpey said it didn't make sense that AMR should invest in new planes as it struggles to turn a profit.

'We've got to take the airplanes we have today and drive them to profitability,' Arpey said. Once the company is profitable, he said, it could get better terms on loans for new aircraft.

Boeing did not immediately return two calls Wednesday.

Shares of AMR were up 3 cents, or 0.3%, to $14.03 in recent trading, near the high end of a 52-week range of $6.34 to $14.95. Boeing shares were down 99 cents, or 1.5%, or $64.29.

[Cheese Mmmmmmmmmmmm]

Originally Posted by hkskyline

"...American Airlines is unlikely to buy Boeing Co.'s (BA) next jetliner until the money-losing carrier returns to profitability and can get better credit terms..."

... I think Boeing'll have the 787's successor out by the time AA gets their ship righted.

[sfgadv02]

AA has the worst type of aircraft. The inside is all broken......never riding AA!

[Cheese Mmmmmmmmmmmm]

^ Yes of their 800-some aircraft fleet, roughly half are MD-80s. They're flying death traps relying solely on careful maintenance of the T-tail because McDonnell-Douglas violated safety redundancy rules when designing it, (See Alaska Airlines Flight 261).

[Cheese Mmmmmmmmmmmm]

Boeing-Airbus Rivalry Dominates Air Show

The Associated Press
June 6, 2005


Aircraft of all descriptions are arriving for the Paris Air Show, but the global aerospace industry's main gathering looks certain to be dominated more than ever this year by its biggest rivalry: the Boeing-Airbus dogfight.

Planes and helicopters have been flying in since early this week to take their places on the tarmac at Le Bourget, north of Paris, where they will go on display Monday alongside aeronautic and military hardware ranging from flight simulators to missiles.

Among them, the Airbus A380 "superjumbo" is bound to get the most attention at its first air show appearance - even as the European aircraft maker is struggling to maintain the lead it took from its U.S. rival two years ago.

The 555-seater A380, which arrives Sunday, represents Airbus' bet on a strong market for very large planes, while Boeing Co. sees more demand for long-range, mid-size jets like its fuel-efficient 787, which enters service in 2008.

After a slow start, Boeing's "Dreamliner" has drawn a surge of orders and commitments, to a total of 266. But the Airbus A350 - the European company's answer to the 787 - is having trouble getting off the ground, with just 10 nonbinding orders to date, and a trans-Atlantic trade dispute threatening its planned funding.

Airbus' top plane salesman John Leahy had vowed to close some of the 787's lead, saying more than 100 A350 orders would be clinched in time to be announced at Le Bourget.

But his task cannot have been made any easier by the apparent setback to the A350 announced Wednesday, when parent company European Aeronautic Defence and Space Co. said the program was on track for a final go-ahead "by the end of September" - instead of next week, as many had expected.

Airbus spokesman David Velupillai declined to say Friday whether the earlier target stands and would not elaborate on reasons for the new September deadline - although EADS said Wednesday it was keen to avoid straining resources for other aircraft programs.

Airbus recently admitted that the first A380s will be delivered up to six months late, and several of its 15 early customers said they will seek compensation under the terms of their contracts.

Plans to use cheap loans from European governments to fund one-third of the A350's euro4 billion (US$4.9 billion) development cost are also at the center of a bitter trans-Atlantic trade dispute over plane subsidies, after Washington filed a complaint against the EU at the World Trade Organization last month and Brussels reciprocated.

No final decision has been announced on whether the government aid will be used - a factor that Randy Baseler, Boeing's vice president for marketing, believes could be holding the A350 back.

"I don't think they can announce the launch of an airplane and then apply for aid afterward," Baseler told The Associated Press on Friday. "So that might be a reason they're delaying too."

In a three-class configuration, Airbus says the A350 will carry a maximum of 285 passengers 7,500 nautical miles (13,900 kilometers). By comparison, the larger of the two long-haul 787 versions will carry 259 passengers 8,300 nautical miles (15,400 kilometers), Boeing says. Scale models of both planes will be on show at Le Bourget.

The newest addition to Boeing's airliner family, the 777-240LR, flew into Le Bourget early Friday and will be part of the static displays, featuring a total of 1,916 exhibitors from 41 countries.

There will also be 238 real working planes and helicopters present - an 18 percent increase on the last Paris Air Show in 2003, when the industry was still suffering the aftershock of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.

On the military side, aerobatic performances by rival fighter planes will help to underscore the dominant theme of trans-Atlantic competition.

Louis Le Portz, chairman and CEO of Le Bourget organizer PLBpe, said both the Rafale fighter from France's Dassault Aviation and Boeing's F-15 Eagle will be among some 60 aircraft that stage display flights. The two planes are competing for a lucrative deal to supply 20 fighters to Singapore's armed forces.

The air show opens to the public for three days on June 17, after four days reserved for industry visitors and government delegations.

[FM 2258]

Originally Posted by Cheese Mmmmmmmmmmmm

^ Yes of their 800-some aircraft fleet, roughly half are MD-80s. They're flying death traps relying solely on careful maintenance of the T-tail because McDonnell-Douglas violated safety redundancy rules when designing it, (See Alaska Airlines Flight 261).

I don't know why I see alot of hate for the MD80. To be honest it's my favorite aircraft, actually the MD90 but I'm happy to be flying on some American MD80's in a few weeks. Long live the DC9/MD80/90/Boeing 717!!!



Speaking of the Boeing 787, since it's made of composite materials, is Amercian gonna have to actually paint the aircraft a shiny metal color if it wants to keep it's livery? I wonder what the basic color of the 787 is since all other plane before it seem to use some type of metal skin.