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Old February 18th, 2013, 03:04 PM   #1641
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If this airframe doesn't get a short term battery fix, and grounding lasts another nine months I think we can clearly state the A350 has cought up even though it's two years behind the 787.

The 787 clearly has a few hundred more sales than the A350, but I think they will have right off a few hundred more orders before it becomes profitable. Don't know how the insurance policy is regarding this, but could you imagine what it will cost Boeing if the Dreamliner is grounded another nine months.
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Old February 19th, 2013, 07:31 PM   #1642
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Some news about the 787 BBJs on order and the sales of the 787-8 test frames.
Quote:
Michael Dell Has Dreamliner on Order

The personal-computer tycoon has a deal to get a Dreamliner through the International Lease Finance Corp.

Mr. Dell appears likely to receive his Dreamliner next year.

One of the Dreamliners ILFC is slated to receive this year is for another VIP customer, whose identity hasn't been disclosed, and who would likely be the first private owner of a Dreamliner.

As of Dec. 13, Boeing had orders for 12 business-jet versions of the 787
full article:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...003720584.html


Quote:
Boeing issued its annual 10K report on February 11.

[787 test airplanes]: During the fourth quarter of 2012 we finalized an order for one of the three remaining flight test aircraft. We continue to believe that the other two 787 flight-test aircraft are commercially saleable and we continue to include costs related to those airplanes in program inventory at December 31, 2012. If we determine that either of the remaining aircraft cannot be sold, we may incur additional charges.
http://leehamnews.wordpress.com/2013...s-boeings-10k/

The unknown production slots for ILFC might be the 2 BBJ that are sold via ILFC.


~~~~~~~

And this article lists all the locations of the grounded 787s:
http://airchive.com/blog/2013/02/18/...way-from-home/

There are surprisingly flew grounded abroad.
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Old February 21st, 2013, 09:29 AM   #1643
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So another week, little progress. Boeing will be presenting a barn door solution to the FAA on Friday on how to contain a fire after it breaks out but no progress on root cause. And weve now got two more issues, swelling in the APU batteries and a production error of incorrectly wired APU- main Battery connections.
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Old February 22nd, 2013, 10:04 AM   #1644
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United Airlines has extended the grounding until June 5th with the sole exception for a new Denver-Tokyo service which will launch May 12th if the planes been cleared to return to flight before then.

Also an update on the Japan Airlines fuel leaks, investigators found the valve which controled opening and closing of the fuel tanks was externally clogged with electrical insulation paint and sending a false closed signal. Talks with Boeing and FAA now on changing the method paint is applied to that area.
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Old February 22nd, 2013, 10:49 AM   #1645
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It's a sad sight at HND...

[IMG]http://i46.************/23ibcz6.jpg[/IMG]

Many 787s are stored at the corner of airports. ANA stores 10 ships at Tokyo HND, 2 ships at Tokyo NRT, one of each at Okayama, Takamatsu, Kumamoto, Miyazaki and Frankfurt.
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Old February 22nd, 2013, 06:05 PM   #1646
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Why sad, they are not living things that suffer physical pain or stress, they're just machines...

9 months is a very long time, I can just imagine the costs of this grounding.
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Old February 22nd, 2013, 10:07 PM   #1647
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Yep, there's very expensive grounding.
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Old February 22nd, 2013, 11:30 PM   #1648
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heludin View Post
Why sad, they are not living things that suffer physical pain or stress, they're just machines...

9 months is a very long time, I can just imagine the costs of this grounding.
A real aviation enthusiast doesn't refer to aircraft as just being a machine...
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Old February 23rd, 2013, 06:27 AM   #1649
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that 737 is very nice!
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Old February 23rd, 2013, 10:48 AM   #1650
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Well Boeing have now had their battery fix presentation meeting, describing it as 'productive' with 'no decisions taken'. Their belief they could role out a replacement in two months looks a bit over optimistic with talk of a 6-9 month recertification process that could last upto two years if they are forced to resort to plan B complete replacement (presumably why no Boeing engineers have been assigned to work developing a plan B, its just too costly to contemplate). Without waiting for any discoveries from the investigation theyve just attempted to solve the main containment issues internally identified. One cloud on the horizon seems to be concern about the concept of externally venting an explosion potentially upto the energy equivalent of a 500-1000lb bomb through a nozzle rather than containing it. On the ground a brief jet of flame 30-40ft long could ignite aviation fuel or endanger ground crew.
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Old February 25th, 2013, 05:13 PM   #1651
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Source:http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stori...256326/1/.html
Quote:
Japan's ANA grounds Dreamliner fleet until May
Posted: 25 February 2013 1420 hrs

TOKYO: Japan's All Nippon Airways said Monday it was grounding its fleet of Dreamliners until at least the end of May, with no end in sight to woes for Boeing's next generation plane.

The airline is cancelling 1,714 flights in April and May, a period that includes Japan's busy Golden Week holidays, taking the total affected to more than 3,600 since the Dreamliner was ordered out of the skies in January.

Of the newly-announced cancellations, 1,250 are domestic and 464 are international flights, including those bound for Seoul, Seattle and Frankfurt.

"Unfortunately, it includes Golden Week, but we have decided to inform our customers in advance as the prospect for their resumption is still unseen," a company spokeswoman said.

ANA is Boeing's biggest Dreamliner customer so far, with 17 of the world's 50 operational 787s.

The next-generation aircraft has suffered a series of glitches culminating in a global alert from the US Federal Aviation Administration after two incidents involving the battery packs.

All operational 787s were grounded in January after smoke was detected mid-air on a flight in Japan. That incident came just days after the lithium-ion battery caught fire on a Japan Airlines-operated plane parked at a US airport.

ANA's announcement is a further setback for Boeing, which has bet heavily on the 787, hoping its lightweight carbon fibre body would appeal to airlines desperate to clamp down on spiralling fuel costs.

Last week US operator United Airlines said it was taking its six Boeing 787s out of service through June 5, except for the launch a Denver-Tokyo route on May 12 if circumstances allowed.

That came as Boeing said it had proposed a fix for the battery issues, but had not yet convinced US safety regulators it has a sufficient handle on the problem.

On Friday, the Federal Aviation Administration said it was reviewing a plan by the aircraft manufacturer after meeting with senior executives.

"The safety of the flying public is our top priority and we won't allow the 787 to return to commercial service until we're confident that any proposed solution has addressed the battery failure risks," the FAA said.

Boeing had earlier said it was "encouraged by the progress" being made in the battery probe, which it hopes will allow it to get its plane back in the skies.

However, the extent of the problems and the potential complexity in addressing them remains unknown, triggering mounting speculation on how long the groundings will last.

Aviation expert Richard Aboulafia of the Teal Group said that if the FAA accepted the Boeing fix, the 787 could be flying again in April, but he added: "There's a very good chance that they won't."

"We don't know to what extent it is a temporary fix and if it is accompanied by a broader solution that's not going to work as a long-term fix," he said.

Boeing said it was working around the clock with teams of hundreds of experts on the issue, and working closely with the FAA and other authorities.

The New York Times reported last week that Boeing had zeroed in on how lithium-ion batteries could fail and concluded they would be safe to use after making changes, such as adding insulation between the cells.

Japanese engineers said Friday they had identified the cause of fuel leaks the plane had suffered, but were still working on the battery problems.

The nation's transport ministry said the leaks were caused by defective paintwork and impurities getting into a fuel valve, adding that it had already ordered the airline to take measures to remedy the problem.

Boeing halted 787 deliveries shortly after the planes were grounded on January 16 but continued to produce 787s at a rate of five per month.

Last week, Boeing's European arch-rival Airbus said it decided to drop lithium-ion batteries planned for the new A350 aircraft it is developing and use heavier nickel-cadmium batteries instead.

- AFP/ck
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Old February 25th, 2013, 05:14 PM   #1652
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AGF13-9 by fernicolapablo, on Flickr
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Old February 25th, 2013, 05:52 PM   #1653
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Sad sight lets hope the FAA accept Boeing's plan.
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Old February 25th, 2013, 07:06 PM   #1654
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Can I ask a silly question, why can't the simply revert to the old type battery like Airbus have on the A350. Is it a cost, weight and design issue or can they not be incorporated into the design of the plane..
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Old February 25th, 2013, 09:40 PM   #1655
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baldyman26 View Post
Can I ask a silly question, why can't the simply revert to the old type battery like Airbus have on the A350. Is it a cost, weight and design issue or can they not be incorporated into the design of the plane..
Dont quote me but I believe the B787 will need to under go the certification process if Boeing decided to change the battery type...
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Old February 26th, 2013, 01:37 PM   #1656
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EK413 View Post
Dont quote me but I believe the B787 will need to under go the certification process if Boeing decided to change the battery type...
Wow that's interesting thanks for that. If that is the case, what is so different. I'm getting curious now
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Old February 26th, 2013, 02:06 PM   #1657
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baldyman26 View Post
Wow that's interesting thanks for that. If that is the case, what is so different. I'm getting curious now
Appears Boeing has opted for a redesign... while Airbus have opted to revert back to traditional batteries which weigh an extra 60kg... So appears to be the weight holding back Boeing...

Boeing is offering a battery redesign for the 787 to answer safety concerns after the jet’s grounding on Jan. 16 as a result of incidents in which lithium batteries smoldered and emitted smoke, people with knowledge of the plan said. The U.S. Federal Aviation Administration is reviewing the proposed redesign.

“It’s unfortunate that these things happen but safety is the most important thing,” Leahy said. “When incidents happen like what they had with the battery we have to put the fleet on ground till you get it fixed. We’re talking about going back to a proven nickel cadmium battery technology that would be about 60 kilograms heavier. Why take a risk for 60 kilograms?”

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...ent-sales.html
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Old February 26th, 2013, 03:52 PM   #1658
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LOT Polish Airlines SP-LRE Boeing 787 Going For A Ride by moonm, on Flickr
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LOT Polish Airlines SP-LRE Boeing 787 Going For A Ride by moonm, on Flickr
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Old February 26th, 2013, 06:46 PM   #1659
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EK413 View Post
Appears Boeing has opted for a redesign... while Airbus have opted to revert back to traditional batteries which weigh an extra 60kg... So appears to be the weight holding back Boeing...

Boeing is offering a battery redesign for the 787 to answer safety concerns after the jet’s grounding on Jan. 16 as a result of incidents in which lithium batteries smoldered and emitted smoke, people with knowledge of the plan said. The U.S. Federal Aviation Administration is reviewing the proposed redesign.

“It’s unfortunate that these things happen but safety is the most important thing,” Leahy said. “When incidents happen like what they had with the battery we have to put the fleet on ground till you get it fixed. We’re talking about going back to a proven nickel cadmium battery technology that would be about 60 kilograms heavier. Why take a risk for 60 kilograms?”

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...ent-sales.html
60 kg is barely the weight of an adult passenger! I would expect Boeing to put the traditional batteries back in immediately rather than suffer the costs of a prolonged grounding ... all for 60 kg?
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Old February 26th, 2013, 06:56 PM   #1660
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
60 kg is barely the weight of an adult passenger! I would expect Boeing to put the traditional batteries back in immediately rather than suffer the costs of a prolonged grounding ... all for 60 kg?
I guess it's more complicated than that, probably need to rethink the whole battery system in the aircraft if they change it. Which would take a lot of time.
The priority for Boeing is to make them fly and then they will have more time to think what's the best final solution.
Once again, It's a shame that Boeing wanted to go faster than the technology prgress, so many engineers warned about the lithium not being mature enough a few years ago. I hope it will give a lesson for all aircrafts manufacturers.
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