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Old October 21st, 2016, 07:09 AM   #81
towerpower123
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A history studied is a history remembered.
A history censored is a history forgotten
And possibly soon repeated


Completely removing all traces of the Nazis (some people want to flatten the surviving remains of Auschwitz) will lead to even more people doubting that the Nazis' atrocities like the Holocaust ever occured. Many are trying to remove all traces of swastikas and the statues of the various leaders in order to try to control the Neo-Nazis, but it is only helping the Holocaust deniers.

As far as the GDR is concerned, it is only 27 years ago that Germany was completely divided and the Berlin Wall was still patrolled. Most people who were alive during that time are still alive today, and some of them supported and still support the communists.

The whole point of THIS project is to take this empty shithole of a park and make it into another focus of activity for the modern Berlin.



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Old October 21st, 2016, 09:27 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Сталин View Post
Do you mean this monument,



Or this one?



Aren't these monuments a little outdated? I think they should better be in a history museum, rather than in a park. Mostly all other post-communist countries took down their communist monuments ages ago. They could instead just build a completely new monument which reflects modern or pre WW Germany. Another option could be to fill the park with residential buildings, like it was before WWII.
History should NEVER disappear from our streets and parks.

We take away statues of heroes, thinkers, monuments that represent an era in our cities, and what do we have left? Starbucks and shopping malls?
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Old October 21st, 2016, 09:47 AM   #83
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The dumbest thing a society can do is erase the past because "it was not a mirror of today's values".

"Oh the past was bad, erase it from consciousness and forget about it!"

That mentality will only cause you to go back and relive the past all over again until you truly learn from it!
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Old October 21st, 2016, 09:50 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by towerpower123 View Post
A history studied is a history remembered.
A history censored is a history forgotten
And possibly soon repeated


Completely removing all traces of the Nazis (some people want to flatten the surviving remains of Auschwitz) will lead to even more people doubting that the Nazis' atrocities like the Holocaust ever occured. Many are trying to remove all traces of swastikas and the statues of the various leaders in order to try to control the Neo-Nazis, but it is only helping the Holocaust deniers.

As far as the GDR is concerned, it is only 27 years ago that Germany was completely divided and the Berlin Wall was still patrolled. Most people who were alive during that time are still alive today, and some of them supported and still support the communists.

The whole point of THIS project is to take this empty shithole of a park and make it into another focus of activity for the modern Berlin.



https://www.holidaycheck.de/m/marx-e...c-b72d45d26e0b
That was a huge mistake

Removing every single trace of the Nazis only led to millions not really believing in all of the atrocities that happened.

You HAVE to leave some of it regardless of how evil and twisted it was, otherwise people will not learn from it, people will not remember, and people will forget (which is the most frightening aspect of it all)!

I also met those "let's flatten Auschwitz because it's just so horrible" people, mostly left winger Americans I've met! When I tell them, then how else are you going to remember Auschwitz and its atrocities? (Most just stare at me and don't know what to answer)

Last edited by mazarick; October 21st, 2016 at 10:14 AM.
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Old October 21st, 2016, 06:19 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mazarick View Post
History should NEVER disappear from our streets and parks.

We take away statues of heroes, thinkers, monuments that represent an era in our cities, and what do we have left? Starbucks and shopping malls?
I don't think many people regard Lenin or Stalin or Engels as a hero or special thinker. A statue of Adolf Hitler would probably be better lol

There's no need for foreign symbols of occupation in a sovereign state. Communism is an internationalist idea and it was about destroying German culture. Keeping the symbols up will only enforce curious youth to become interested, and take up those ideas.

My point, was that the symbols should be in a museum, and clearly marked as to why those ideas were bad. Like in Lithuania, most Soviet era monuments were put into a museum for tourists, and the KGB headquarters were turned into a museum.

So you are saying there isn't over 2,000 years of unique German history that can be memorialized, instead of some "Friedrich Engels" or "Karl Marx" who had never had jobs and were equivalent to homeless people on the side of the street? Who haven't even done anything good for Germany except divide the country in two, and have gone against all that Germany stands for?

I'm surprised that the people themselves have not defaced these monuments yet? In other countries, victims of communism have destroyed communist monuments.
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Old October 21st, 2016, 08:58 PM   #86
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Neither Marx nor Engels were evil and they certainly didn't want their ideas to be interpreted and used like they were. They are part of history, they aren't evil or disgusting (like a statue of Hitler would be) and therefore can be kept with good consciousness.
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Old October 22nd, 2016, 12:05 AM   #87
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Neither Marx nor Engels were evil and they certainly didn't want their ideas to be interpreted and used like they were. They are part of history, they aren't evil or disgusting (like a statue of Hitler would be) and therefore can be kept with good consciousness.
Marx and Engels are one of the greatest enemies of Western civilization, and are far worse, and have had a greater impact on the modern world than Adolf Hitler.

Socialism and Marxism has killed over 53 million people around the world. There is no specific blend of socialism or Marxism that isn't oppressive. It has been tried countless times by different people throughout history and has never worked. It's safe to say that the remnants of these failed socialist trials can be thrown away into some forgotten museum.

There are more enlightening periods of history which can be memorialized than that of the GDR and Soviet occupation of Germany.
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Last edited by Сталин; October 22nd, 2016 at 12:24 AM.
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Old October 22nd, 2016, 12:15 AM   #88
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yeah sure

Except that they were already dead when all that happened. And they sure didn't advocate mass genocide. While I am not a fan of their economic and political ideas, I'm not idiot enough to condemm them as mass murderers when they were long since dead when the various communist revolutions took place. In the end, they were just brilliant thinkers whose ideas weren't as compatible with reality as they thought they'd be. Nothing more, nothing less.
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Old October 22nd, 2016, 12:35 AM   #89
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What ordinary people call "socialism" and "communism" is actually statism and neo-feudalism, which has nothing to do with marxism at all. It's some kind of Asian despotism, which is actually a step back to feudalism.

It's something like when imperialism and colonial exploitation that took its place was justified by ideas of progress,

We are still at capitalist stage of development and socialism would be actually possible in a couple of centuries, given the fact how co-operative organisations are growing. Communism is in fact when ownership of the means of production is shared by everyone. That's why co-operatives are the way to socialism and communism.

In academic fields, marxist approaches into philosophy also (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marx%2..._of_alienation), development of history, social sciences (i.e. dependence of development of cultures on modes of production) are pretty much respected, given the fact that Marx was actual successor of Hegel and he developed ideas of Enlightenment by projecting it to majority of people, as he desired classless society with enlightenment proletariat.
Frankfurt School (Markuze, Adorno) took a lot from marxism and tried to modernise his ideas. Marxist ideas inspired student riots in 1968. . Polish "Solidarity" which rebelled against pro-soviet polish government is truly expression of Marxist ideas of working-class self-management.

Should we blame Hegel for the idea that progress needs sacrifices because of rules of dialectics and his philosophy of history?
Sacrifices are in fact inevitable in natural development of societies, and class struggle is absolutely natural, as human history is cyclical.
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Old October 22nd, 2016, 12:54 AM   #90
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Quote:
Marx and Engels are one of the greatest enemies of Western civilization
Very cool! Then Plato, Aristotle, french philosophers of 18th century and Hegel as well are the greatest enemies of Western Civilisation, as well!

In fact, Karl Popper actually accused Plato in in his thoughts in "Open society and its Enemies"

You base your arguments on myths, not facts. Bet you've never read "German Ideology", for instance. Or Economic and Philosophic Manuscripts of 1844


Quote:
have had a greater impact on the modern world than Adolf Hitler.
It's a must for human beings to become free-thinking developed and enlightenmened, skilled individuals, which are not dumped down by mass media, mainstream tv.
Such a bad idea, isn't it?

Such a bad idea to provide equal opportunities for women, and people for other races to make them enlightenment individuals, right?
Maybe, you're considering the "others" stupid, because they were born like that? It's "natural"????
And of course,
Quote:
A statue of Adolf Hitler would probably be better lol

We don't live in meritocracy nowadays.

Capitalism doesn't let develop human beings as far as they can. We are still at primitive step of development.
Statism and neo-feudalism was much worse.

It has nothing to do with marxism.

Quote:
Socialism and Marxism has killed over 53 million people around the world.
This is complete nonsense. Socialism has never killed anybody, as society nowadays still hasn't reached it yet.

Quote:
There is no specific blend of socialism or Marxism that isn't oppressive.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Left
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavoj_%C5%BDi%C5%BEek

Quote:
It has been tried countless times by different people throughout history and has never worked
It wasn't tried at all, as capitalism remains an evil, but needed evil
These "marxists" are anti-marxists because they completely ignored a backgrounds for social change. They are just bloody populists.

Quote:
There are more enlightening periods of history which can be memorialized than that of the GDR and Soviet occupation of Germany.
If you associate Marx only with "eastern bloc" and soviet despotism, then you're stupid
Quote:
I don't think many people regard Lenin or Stalin or Engels as a hero or special thinker.
Lenin and Stalin are bourgeois who wanted to take over absolutist power over peasants and workers and exploit them, Engels is not.

Quote:
ommunism is an internationalist idea and it was about destroying German culture.
Great joke, comrade!

Quote:
I'm surprised that the people themselves have not defaced these monuments yet?
Because Marx is recognised western philosopher and successor of Enlightenment philosophers as well.
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Last edited by levaniX; October 22nd, 2016 at 01:17 AM.
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Old October 22nd, 2016, 04:44 AM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by levaniX View Post
We are still at capitalist stage of development and socialism would be actually possible in a couple of centuries, given the fact how co-operative organisations are growing. Communism is in fact when ownership of the means of production is shared by everyone. That's why co-operatives are the way to socialism and communism.

In academic fields, marxist approaches into philosophy also (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marx%2..._of_alienation), development of history, social sciences (i.e. dependence of development of cultures on modes of production) are pretty much respected, given the fact that Marx was actual successor of Hegel and he developed ideas of Enlightenment by projecting it to majority of people, as he desired classless society with enlightenment proletariat.
Frankfurt School (Markuze, Adorno) took a lot from marxism and tried to modernise his ideas. Marxist ideas inspired student riots in 1968. . Polish "Solidarity" which rebelled against pro-soviet polish government is truly expression of Marxist ideas of working-class self-management.
It wouldn't be possible because of automation. Automation of jobs will rid the world of workers. Those old thinkers couldn't imagine that, it was simply too before their time. There will come a point in time when AI will be able to do all of our jobs.



Quote:
Originally Posted by levaniX View Post
Very cool! Then Plato, Aristotle, french philosophers of 18th century and Hegel as well are the greatest enemies of Western Civilisation, as well!

In fact, Karl Popper actually accused Plato in in his thoughts in "Open society and its Enemies"

You base your arguments on myths, not facts. Bet you've never read "German Ideology", for instance. Or Economic and Philosophic Manuscripts of 1844




It's a must for human beings to become free-thinking developed and enlightenmened, skilled individuals, which are not dumped down by mass media, mainstream tv.
Such a bad idea, isn't it?

Such a bad idea to provide equal opportunities for women, and people for other races to make them enlightenment individuals, right?
Maybe, you're considering the "others" stupid, because they were born like that? It's "natural"????
And of course,


We don't live in meritocracy nowadays.

Capitalism doesn't let develop human beings as far as they can. We are still at primitive step of development.
Statism and neo-feudalism was much worse.

It has nothing to do with marxism.



This is complete nonsense. Socialism has never killed anybody, as society nowadays still hasn't reached it yet.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Left
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavoj_%C5%BDi%C5%BEek



It wasn't tried at all, as capitalism remains an evil, but needed evil
These "marxists" are anti-marxists because they completely ignored a backgrounds for social change. They are just bloody populists.



If you associate Marx only with "eastern bloc" and soviet despotism, then you're stupid


Lenin and Stalin are bourgeois who wanted to take over absolutist power over peasants and workers and exploit them, Engels is not.



Great joke, comrade!


Because Marx is recognised western philosopher and successor of Enlightenment philosophers as well.
The Soviets were enemies of Western civilization because they advocated for the destruction of all previous culture for a new socialist culture. The Reds killed the Czarist family so that Russia "could never go back to what it was before."

Other races? Are you saying only white people were enlightened? That's racist. Anyone can be enlightened if they choose to be.

If you say that socialism has never killed anyone, then do you agree that national socialism has never killed anyone either?

You're statement is wrong, because I was talking about these monuments in Germany, and they were put up by the GDR regime. It wasn't free democratic people who put those statues up. They were put up to justify the basis for GDR ideology and rule in the country. So if Adolf Hitler put up a statue of George W. Bush in the center of Moscow, on the red square, would you want that taken down?

Last edited by Сталин; October 22nd, 2016 at 08:29 PM.
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Old October 22nd, 2016, 06:03 PM   #92
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Jeez! Where did this thread head to?

Stop that offtopic socialism etc. discussion now and take it to the skybar, thanks!
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