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Old January 12th, 2018, 07:58 AM   #301
JMR75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N830MH View Post
...No, I think old MEX airports will remain open for ULCC & LCC. I think the non - Skyteam alliance will stay at old MEX airports. They won't move to new airports. It will free up the congestion & slot restrictions. It will ease the slots at old MEX airports.
The old airport and the new airport cannot operate simultaneously because they are too close together and their runways don't have similar headings.

An aircraft taking off to the northeast from the old airport crosses the path of aircraft taking off or landing in the new airport to/from the south.

Besides that the flight paths for aircraft approaching Mexico city from the north to land in either airport from the south/southwest would become a bottleneck if both airports were to operate at the same time. This would result in a congested airspace that would limit the capacity of either airport (this problem would also mean that the alternate airport proposed by AMLO (a presidential candidate in this year's election) would hardly increase airport capacity as the airspace would be very congested).
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Old January 12th, 2018, 09:02 AM   #302
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This non-official map shows the only flight path for aircraft approaching Mexico city from the north to land in the old airport from the southwest (in red) and possible flight paths to the new airport in similar conditions (in purple). As you can see the flight paths to the west overlap each other and would become a bottleneck if both airports were to remain operational.



Just for kicks and giggles (because of its sheer stupidity), this other map shows the flight paths for AMLO's airport proposal. The red box shows a huge bottleneck that would limit the landing slot capacity of the old and AMLO's airports to little more than the capacity of just the old airport.



The current airport offers around 55 slots/hour, I doubt AMLO's proposal would result in more than 60 slots/hour as wake turbulence sets strict separation rules for aircraft sharing the same flight path (around 10 years ago a jet carrying the interior minister crashed north of Chapultepec park because it was flying too close to a 767).

Due to the mountains that surround the city it is not possible for aircraft approaching Mexico city from the south to directly land in the old or AMLO's airport without taking a detour north of Mexico city to then follow the red/orange flight path. On the other hand the new airport under construction would allow aircraft approaching the city from the south to land without taking extra detours, greatly increasing the airport capacity to over 100 slots/hour (I don't remember the exact number, but I kind of remember that the new airport under construction would allow a number close to 150 slots/hour).
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Old January 17th, 2018, 03:08 PM   #303
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Usually, depending on the quality of the surrounding ground infrastructure and airports, I say it's between 108 and 144 slots/hour using three runways, extrapolating from the numbers they have used in e.g. Jakarta and London Heathrow at two runways where the capacity is severely limited.
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Old January 17th, 2018, 06:29 PM   #304
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the new MEX it's planned to have 6 parallel runways grouped in 3 sets of 2 runways separated by a few hundred meters, each of the 3 sets separated by 1.5 km to allow 3 simultaneous landings.

We can think of its runway arrangement as 3 parallel copies of the current MEX airport's runways (or in a more widely known example, 3 copies of Dubai airport's runways). The overall capacity would be a little less than 3 times the current airport's capacity (~55 slots/hour) due to airspace congestion, so maybe 130 slots/hour would be a more accurate estimate.
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Old January 17th, 2018, 10:45 PM   #305
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Did you ever hear about vertical separation ? Airplanes fly in three dimensional environment. There are many densely used areas (SOCAL, Pearl River Delta, London, New York) where the paths to different airports cross each other.
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Old January 17th, 2018, 11:28 PM   #306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by easyna View Post
Did you ever hear about vertical separation ? Airplanes fly in three dimensional environment. There are many densely used areas (SOCAL, Pearl River Delta, London, New York) where the paths to different airports cross each other.
Yeah, but for example does Gatwick and Heathrow substantially share the same approach flight paths? No, and sharing the same flight path (not crossing) is the problem here.

In London the flight paths only cross each other at specific points where it's relatively easy to keep the standard separation for crossings of at least 1000 feet.

For aircraft sharing the same flight path a separation of at least 5 nautical miles (10 km) is required. You cannot cram more aircraft in the same flight path without keeping this separation even if they are on different flight levels as a vertical separation of 1000 feet will not do the trick here.

Besides that, in Mexico city the surrounding mountains and lower air density call for more stringent separation rules than at sea level airports with no significant mountains nearby.

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Old January 18th, 2018, 01:06 AM   #307
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMR75 View Post
the new MEX it's planned to have 6 parallel runways grouped in 3 sets of 2 runways separated by a few hundred meters, each of the 3 sets separated by 1.5 km to allow 3 simultaneous landings.

We can think of its runway arrangement as 3 parallel copies of the current MEX airport's runways (or in a more widely known example, 3 copies of Dubai airport's runways). The overall capacity would be a little less than 3 times the current airport's capacity (~55 slots/hour) due to airspace congestion, so maybe 130 slots/hour would be a more accurate estimate.
Actually the project includes 6 runways that can operate simultaneously each one. So in theory there could be up to 6 landings at the same time. The separation between each pair is sufficient enough for this, although I don't think we will ever see all 6 takeoffs or landings at the same time.
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Old January 18th, 2018, 03:11 AM   #308
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This is an estimate of the separation between the runways, going from west to east:

35L/17R (runway 1)
[~400m]
35R/17L (runway 2)
[~1700m - terminal 1]
36L/18R (runway 3)
[~400m]
36R/18L (runway 4)
[~1500m - space reserved for terminal 2]
01L/19R (runway 5)
[~400m]
01R/19L (runway 6)



Only a separation of more than 1,500 m allows for simultaneous landings, so the airport will be limited to 3 at the time.

Nevertheless, all 6 runways can be used at the same time by 3 landings (runways 1, 4 and 5) and 3 take offs (runways 2, 3 and 6 as those are longer than their neighbor).
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Old January 18th, 2018, 09:23 AM   #309
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMR75 View Post

Only a separation of more than 1,500 m allows for simultaneous landings, so the airport will be limited to 3 at the time.

Nevertheless, all 6 runways can be used at the same time by 3 landings (runways 1, 4 and 5) and 3 take offs (runways 2, 3 and 6 as those are longer than their neighbor).
Yes that's it. The technical description of the project talks about 3 landings and 3 takeoffs simultaneously. Somehow that got translated into the promotional materials as 6 simultaneous operations (which is technically correct) and then into 6 simultaneous landings or takeoffs. A case of the telephone game...
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Old January 19th, 2018, 08:16 PM   #310
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How does San Francisco do it? The runways are very close together and I am quite certain I watched a plane land right next to mine simultaneously (maybe 200 feet behind ours?). Is it an FAA waiver?
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Old January 19th, 2018, 08:28 PM   #311
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NikolasM View Post
How does San Francisco do it? The runways are very close together and I am quite certain I watched a plane land right next to mine simultaneously (maybe 200 feet behind ours?). Is it an FAA waiver?
It has a special runway guidance ILS, its unique
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Old January 20th, 2018, 12:26 AM   #312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NikolasM View Post
How does San Francisco do it? The runways are very close together and I am quite certain I watched a plane land right next to mine simultaneously (maybe 200 feet behind ours?). Is it an FAA waiver?
SFO is not an example to emulate in a greenfield airport, it's rather the result of regulators grandfathering exceptions because the airport is unable to upgrade its infrastructure. As far as I know the FAA only allows parallel landings for domestic narrow body aircraft under perfect weather. In conditions other than that the airport's capacity halves.

Speaking of weather, a problem with the current MEX airport is that it cannot operate at all when visibility is challenging (fog, heavy rain, etc.) because it doesn't have an approach lighting system complying with an Instrument Landing System category III and there's no space to build such lighting system because the runways start less than 600m from a major freeway (circuito interior - the city's inner ring road) and a residential neighborhood. The airport has the radio components of an ILS but without the lighting system aircraft are often forced to divert to an alternate airport to wait for visibility to improve.

The new airport under construction will be able to operate under any weather condition because it will have the latest ILS cat III equipment and its runways will be more than 4 km away from any existing building.
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Old Yesterday, 06:29 AM   #313
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMR75 View Post
This is an estimate of the separation between the runways, going from west to east:

35L/17R (runway 1)
[~400m]
35R/17L (runway 2)
[~1700m - terminal 1]
36L/18R (runway 3)
[~400m]
36R/18L (runway 4)
[~1500m - space reserved for terminal 2]
01L/19R (runway 5)
[~400m]
01R/19L (runway 6)



Only a separation of more than 1,500 m allows for simultaneous landings, so the airport will be limited to 3 at the time.

Nevertheless, all 6 runways can be used at the same time by 3 landings (runways 1, 4 and 5) and 3 take offs (runways 2, 3 and 6 as those are longer than their neighbor).
I have no idea what is all about. You're absolutely right! They will have 6 runways and it will free up the congestion at new MEX airport. It will ease the slot restrictions. Be sure if the airlines can have more specific new routes, and a few other things, as well.
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Old Today, 12:57 AM   #314
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Se viene lo bueno





Por Fernando Romero

Saludos.
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