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Old September 7th, 2014, 05:30 PM   #1
Gytis
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Baroque of North-Eastern Europe: Relevant of Non-existent?



Town hall in Kaunas, Lithuania (baroque, 1771 - 1780)



Ascension of Virgin Mary church in Vilnius (1730 - 1756)
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Old September 7th, 2014, 06:07 PM   #2
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Baroque is more an Catholic type. North Europe is Protestant. Of course they had baroque, too. But not as long as other country's. North Germany, for example build baroque from 1720 til 1800 while south Germany used baroque from 1650 to 1820. In case of Vienna,
they continued right to neobaroque during Gruenderzeit from 1840 to 1925
Protestant used instead Renascence.
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Old September 7th, 2014, 10:31 PM   #3
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Lithuania was/is catholic and baroque (Il Gesu type churche) was introduced there (period of Commenwealth of Both Nations) even earlier than in Poland.
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Old September 7th, 2014, 10:44 PM   #4
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I' m sorry for simplification, there were there of coures also ortodox, protestants, jews, karaims etc. But rulers (Great Dukes) and most of the aristocracy were catholics. Lithuania I mean Gr.Duches.
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Old September 8th, 2014, 05:15 AM   #5
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Ha, ha! It`s nice of You trying to be politically correct. But trust me: It`s going nowhere. At the end someone could turn your word around in you mouth and "proofs" your home belongs to them. Just joking.
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Old September 9th, 2014, 01:42 PM   #6
Gytis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Eagle View Post
Baroque is more an Catholic type. North Europe is Protestant. Of course they had baroque, too. But not as long as other country's. North Germany, for example build baroque from 1720 til 1800 while south Germany used baroque from 1650 to 1820. In case of Vienna,
they continued right to neobaroque during Gruenderzeit from 1840 to 1925
Protestant used instead Renascence.
This doesn't look like a very protestant church for me...





St. Peter and St. Paul's Church, Vilnius (1668 - 1701).
There are over thirty catholic churches in Vilnius, starting from XIV century gothic to modern styles.
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Old September 9th, 2014, 03:02 PM   #7
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Town hall in Kaunas and church of Virgnin Mary from Vilnius are rather examples of late baroque with characteristic for this region at that time vertical tendency.
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Old September 9th, 2014, 10:46 PM   #8
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Well I don't to be mean or rude but this thread would be a copy of most if not all the Polish threads in here from one single reason political correctness is forbidding me to say loud.

EdiT: or it will be another interesting thread with many translations into local languages of all the writings from the interiors (including names of the founders) of those churches

EDiT2: but I am really interested how does it look in NE Europe after all it must be something unusual to see baroque Catholic church in Orthodox or Protestant area.

Last edited by catcha; September 9th, 2014 at 11:01 PM.
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Old September 11th, 2014, 10:57 PM   #9
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Considering that the Baroque era set a new standard for secular representation afor monarchs and nobility, the era is extremely relevant in NE Europe. Case in point would be Saint Petersburg with

Menshikov Palace

Wikipedia

Winter Palace

Wikipedia

Peterhof

Wikipedia

Kikin Hall

Wikipedia

Peter and Paul Cathedral

Wikipedia
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Old September 12th, 2014, 12:45 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bolg View Post
Considering that the Baroque era set a new standard for secular representation afor monarchs and nobility, the era is extremely relevant in NE Europe. Case in point would be Saint Petersburg with
Well but this sound strange especially when we consider that St. Petersburg was established in 1703, in the late years of the first half of that century there was no more baroque... So examples of peterin baroque are very interesting but as an example in my opinion are not really that great, those buildings were build by Italian masters introducing mixture of exotic for Europe kinda Bizantine style with classical baroque however outside St. Petersburg this style is almost non existent in Russia. So how could be those few (great) buildings be extremely relevant?

Three phases of baroque:
Early Baroque, c.1590–c.1625
High Baroque, c.1625–c.1660
Late Baroque, c.1660–c.1725
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Old September 12th, 2014, 02:59 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catcha View Post
Well but this sound strange especially when we consider that St. Petersburg was established in 1703, in the late years of the first half of that century there was no more baroque... So examples of peterin baroque are very interesting but as an example in my opinion are not really that great, those buildings were build by Italian masters introducing mixture of exotic for Europe kinda Bizantine style with classical baroque however outside St. Petersburg this style is almost non existent in Russia. So how could be those few (great) buildings be extremely relevant?

Three phases of baroque:
Early Baroque, c.1590–c.1625
High Baroque, c.1625–c.1660
Late Baroque, c.1660–c.1725
Yes, Russia has its own complicated relationships with baroque (or with what is called this way in Russia). It came in Russia late and stayed longer than in the West (and longer than Peter's time). For instance, the Winter Palace was built in 1750-60s, as well as other pieces by B.Rastrelli like the Stroganov palace or the Smolny convent which is probably the best example of that style in Russia (see below). By the way though Rastrelli was an Italian by birth he came to Russia as a teenager so he may hardly be called "Italian master".

The Stroganov Palace

Wikipedia

The Smolny cathedral (in the Smolny convent)

http://travel-stpetersburg.ru/images/smolnyj-sobor.jpg

So we usually distinguish Petrine baroque (1700-1720s) from Elizabethian baroque (1740-1760s). Sometimes also Annine baroque (1730s) is selected (St.Panteleimon's church is an example of it).

St.Panteleimon's church (1735-1739)

http://экскурсиивспб.рф/images/stori...va/pant_ts.jpg

Of course, in terms of Western European architecture this style should rather be called neo-baroque. But the problem with this term is that we had our own neo-baroque (neo-neo that is) which became popular in the middle of the 19th century. Here is what it looked like:

Beloselsky-Belozersky Palace (rebuilt baroquesque way in 1847-1848)

http://www.spbtravel.ru/pic/photo/attbig_68_1.jpg

I don't mention the second revival of the style which took place in the end of the 19th century when all over the world revival architecture came into fashion.
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Old September 12th, 2014, 03:49 PM   #12
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All said above concerns only Western (or real, if you like) baroque which came to Russia with Peter and his successors. However, there was also the specific Russian style developed in the 17th century which is also called baroque. Some say about two branches of it: so-called Naryshkin (or Moscow) baroque and Siberian baroque (there was also Ukrainian baroque but it's a little different because of the straight western influence). This pretty unique local style reminds the classic baroque even less though some similarities may be noticed.
Here are some examples.

Naryshkin baroque

1. The Intercession church at Fili (now Moscow; 1690s)


http://moscow-live.ru/

2. The Our Lady's Assumption church in Pokrovka (Moscow; built in 1690s, demolished in 1936)

pastvu.com

3. The Resurrection church in Kadashi (Moscow; 1687-1695)

nsad.ru


Siberian baroque

1. The Resurrection church in Tomsk (1789-1807)

temples.ru

2. The Saviour church in Tyumen (1796-1819)

venividi.ru

3. The Holy Cross church in Irkutsk (1747-1760)

sibnet.ru

And here is a fine example of Naryshkin style revival in 1900s :

The Resurrection church at Smolenskoe cemetery (St. Petersburg; 1904)

holdingaquarium.ru
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Old September 12th, 2014, 08:38 PM   #13
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Yes I agree with the above lads, but honestly I believe this thread was suppose to be about baroque architecture not rococo or baroque influenced variations of the baroque in the Russian style...

It's like to place neoclassicism in the thread for classical architecture imho.

The other thing is that Peter the Great introduced European culture (or rather tried to) into Russia. The result for that as we see is some sort of mutation which has the influence of the baroque but is not the baroque itself (even has it's own name to reflect that). Same with the later rulers for the Russian Empire struggling to be considered European mostly as a result of them (rulers) being 'naturalized' into Russia vide Catherine I (Polish born from probably Swedish father who was an officer and on and on). This problem in my opinion arises from the fact that European style of life (including the architecture) was pushed into Russia by force (famous cutting beards of boyars by Peter etc.)

No offence but you would have to be blind to say that this form of architecture correspondents with baroque as it was. It is however interesting but I would rather consider it as a trivia.

Other thing is that baroque as itself is considered Catholic style and the above lovely Orthodox churches are more bizantine than baroque. It is about what it is not from who it was bought (well honestly not much changed on that last 200 years in Russia...).
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Old September 13th, 2014, 11:40 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catcha View Post
Yes I agree with the above lads, but honestly I believe this thread was suppose to be about baroque architecture not rococo or baroque influenced variations of the baroque in the Russian style...
I see your point but I consider this thread to be more like about "what was happening with baroque in North-Eastern Europe" that also covers what you may call "mutations" or so.
I would agree though that 17th century churches I put in the second post are less relevant here (more like illustrating the diversity of the term "baroque"). But Rastrelli's works don't seem to be out of place.

Quote:
It's like to place neoclassicism in the thread for classical architecture imho.
Not sure. Neoclassicism (as well as other neo- styles) is a revival style which was resurrected after decades of oblivion. But in this case we have direct prolongation of the baroque history in some places (i.e. Russia) while it ceased to exist in places it had been born. Different mechanics, as for me.

Quote:
The other thing is that Peter the Great introduced European culture (or rather tried to) into Russia. The result for that as we see is some sort of mutation which has the influence of the baroque but is not the baroque itself (even has it's own name to reflect that). Same with the later rulers for the Russian Empire struggling to be considered European mostly as a result of them (rulers) being 'naturalized' into Russia vide Catherine I (Polish born from probably Swedish father who was an officer and on and on). This problem in my opinion arises from the fact that European style of life (including the architecture) was pushed into Russia by force (famous cutting beards of boyars by Peter etc.)
So what? Every architecture style as it comes to another land undergoes some "mutations" caused by local traditions. That's why we distinguish Saxon baroque from French or Italian one. It has nothing to do with the fact if the country was modernized by force or not. Especially when we talk about royal palaces which are always built due to rulers' will.

Quote:
No offence but you would have to be blind to say that this form of architecture correspondents with baroque as it was. It is however interesting but I would rather consider it as a trivia.
Well, I'm all right with considering it as a trivia but I do see some correspondence. Don't you see similarities between the Smolny cathedral and German (Saxon or Prussian) baroque, for instance?

Quote:
Other thing is that baroque as itself is considered Catholic style and the above lovely Orthodox churches are more bizantine than baroque.
Well, they might not be baroque in direct sense but they are even less bizantine. What's bizantine in them (beside the fact that they're orthodox)? Five-domed structure may be (although it's built other way than in bizantine churches) or their interiors (but we don't see them on these pictures).
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Old September 18th, 2014, 02:08 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catcha View Post
Well but this sound strange especially when we consider that St. Petersburg was established in 1703, in the late years of the first half of that century there was no more baroque... So examples of peterin baroque are very interesting but as an example in my opinion are not really that great, those buildings were build by Italian masters introducing mixture of exotic for Europe kinda Bizantine style with classical baroque however outside St. Petersburg this style is almost non existent in Russia. So how could be those few (great) buildings be extremely relevant?

Three phases of baroque:
Early Baroque, c.1590–c.1625
High Baroque, c.1625–c.1660
Late Baroque, c.1660–c.1725

It is true that the Russian baroque period (which actually reached its peak under empress Elizabeth - in the middle of the 18 th century) began after the baroque period in the western Europe and coincided rather with rococo period in the west. But it is called baroque and not rococo for a reason - rococo was an intimate decorative style while baroque was developed as an acrhitectural manifestation of the ideology of catholic church. Russian baroque in terms of the ideas it was supposed to convey was indeed a special version of baroque, not of rococo.

Russian baroque and rococo coincided in time but they can still be distinguished - the former aims to evoke the feelings of awe and respect, the latter - the feeling of comfort and intimacy:

Russian baroque :

Winter palace in St. Petersburg





Catherine palace






Russian rococo :

Pavilion in Oranienbaum near St. Petersburg





Chinese palace in Oranienbaum



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Last edited by ledeled; September 18th, 2014 at 03:04 PM.
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Old November 1st, 2014, 01:53 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Gytis View Post
This doesn't look like a very protestant church for me...





St. Peter and St. Paul's Church, Vilnius (1668 - 1701).
There are over thirty catholic churches in Vilnius, starting from XIV century gothic to modern styles.
So awesome with this architecture , look like royal white palace . Take care every detail , hope i will visit it in the furture
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Old November 21st, 2014, 06:04 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roman_P View Post
I see your point but I consider this thread to be more like about "what was happening with baroque in North-Eastern Europe" that also covers what you may call "mutations" or so.
I would agree though that 17th century churches I put in the second post are less relevant here (more like illustrating the diversity of the term "baroque"). But Rastrelli's works don't seem to be out of place.


Not sure. Neoclassicism (as well as other neo- styles) is a revival style which was resurrected after decades of oblivion. But in this case we have direct prolongation of the baroque history in some places (i.e. Russia) while it ceased to exist in places it had been born. Different mechanics, as for me.


So what? Every architecture style as it comes to another land undergoes some "mutations" caused by local traditions. That's why we distinguish Saxon baroque from French or Italian one. It has nothing to do with the fact if the country was modernized by force or not. Especially when we talk about royal palaces which are always built due to rulers' will.


Well, I'm all right with considering it as a trivia but I do see some correspondence. Don't you see similarities between the Smolny cathedral and German (Saxon or Prussian) baroque, for instance?


Well, they might not be baroque in direct sense but they are even less bizantine. What's bizantine in them (beside the fact that they're orthodox)? Five-domed structure may be (although it's built other way than in bizantine churches) or their interiors (but we don't see them on these pictures).
Very clever distinction, because f. e. real Lithuanian baroque architecture is based on Italian baroque, not rococo of Russian empire.

F. e. see St Theresa church in Vilnius, 1633 - 1655

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Old November 21st, 2014, 06:07 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mp3hoanglong View Post
So awesome with this architecture , look like royal white palace . Take care every detail , hope i will visit it in the furture
Visit it now virtually http://www.panoramas.lt/m_katalog.php?p_id=733&lg=2
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Old November 21st, 2014, 06:31 PM   #19
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Pažaislis monastery of Camaldules (1667 - 1755) in Kaunas, Lithuania, based on Santa Trinita dei Monti in Rome and S. Agnese in Rome
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Old November 21st, 2014, 06:32 PM   #20
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