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Old November 21st, 2014, 06:33 PM   #21
Gytis
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Old November 21st, 2014, 06:33 PM   #22
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Old November 21st, 2014, 06:34 PM   #23
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Old November 22nd, 2014, 10:51 AM   #24
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Pažaislis (Pożajsk) monastery shows direct transfer of Italian pattern into Middle-North Europe, by the way the founders (Pac familly) bellived to be descendent from Italy.
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Old November 22nd, 2014, 03:31 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greg111 View Post
Pažaislis (Pożajsk) monastery shows direct transfer of Italian pattern into Middle-North Europe, by the way the founders (Pac familly) bellived to be descendent from Italy.
True, but this example is not relevant to this thread. This land was a part of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

Map (I am placing the one with Russian description from Russian source so there will be no problems with claims for being not neutral):



From my understanding this thread is trying to give proof of existence of baroque on the lands shown on above in color pink and willow-green. So far some of great examples of architecture just show mostly the buildings which are heavily influenced by the European baroque.

Last edited by catcha; November 22nd, 2014 at 03:37 PM.
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Old November 22nd, 2014, 04:02 PM   #26
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No, this thread is dedicated to a different question - the one that has already been extensively discussed by art historians actually.

The question is whether the style of a number of XVIII-century palaces and non-catholic churches in Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Estonia, Latvia etc. should be described as baroque (Russian or Rasstrelian baroque) or as rococo.

The major arguments against it are the fact that baroque is the style invented by Catholic church and that in Western Europe this period was marked by rococo, not baroque.

The argument in favor of it is that in terms of its ideological message (even though this ideology was not Catholic) this style is much closer to baroque then to rococo.
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Old November 22nd, 2014, 04:10 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ledeled View Post
The question is whether the style of a number of XVIII-century palaces and non-catholic churches in Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Estonia, Latvia etc. should be described as baroque (Russian or Rasstrelian baroque) or as rococo.
Fully agree! That what I meant. As above please take a look where Kowno vel Kaunas from last example is located and when has been errected

...and map I believe might help a lot, as it shows the maximum territory of catholic - Western European cultural influence (and again I agree with you as the baroque is typical example of ideology implemented into architecture, rococo not).

PS. how did you managed to put Belarus with other countries listed I don't know to be honest... again please take a look at the map

Last edited by catcha; November 22nd, 2014 at 04:19 PM.
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Old November 22nd, 2014, 04:37 PM   #28
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Belarus is predominantly Orthodox, not Catholic - that is why
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Old November 22nd, 2014, 05:05 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ledeled View Post
Belarus is predominantly Orthodox, not Catholic - that is why
Right but please take under consideration that nowadays Belarus is something absolutely different than the one from XVI-XVIIc. And even if would be the same culturally and geographically can not be considered North-Eastern (same applies to Ukraine) - don't you think?
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Old November 22nd, 2014, 06:45 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ledeled View Post
No, this thread is dedicated to a different question - the one that has already been extensively discussed by art historians actually.

The question is whether the style of a number of XVIII-century palaces and non-catholic churches in Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Estonia, Latvia etc. should be described as baroque (Russian or Rasstrelian baroque) or as rococo.

The major arguments against it are the fact that baroque is the style invented by Catholic church and that in Western Europe this period was marked by rococo, not baroque.

The argument in favor of it is that in terms of its ideological message (even though this ideology was not Catholic) this style is much closer to baroque then to rococo.


A VERY MUCH CATHOLIC LATE BAROQUE (ROCOCO) St John's Church in Vilnius, Lithuania. Architect Jonas Kristupas Glaubicas (Johann Christoph Glaubitz), 1738–1748.

You can compare it WITH RUSSIAN ORTHODOX ROCOCO (reconstruction of St Casimir church in Vilnius (1864–1868, architect Nikolai Chiagin)

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Old November 22nd, 2014, 07:03 PM   #31
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Gothic - Baroque catholic Franciscan church in Vilnius, Lithuania (built during 14th - 17th centuries). The side bell tower was demolished in 1873.
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Old November 22nd, 2014, 07:09 PM   #32
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St Catherine catholic church in Vilnius, Lithuania (Architect Jonas Kristupas Glaubicas (Johann Christoph Glaubitz), 1741 - 1753)
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Old November 22nd, 2014, 08:03 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greg111 View Post
Pažaislis (Pożajsk) monastery shows direct transfer of Italian pattern into Middle-North Europe, by the way the founders (Pac familly) bellived to be descendent from Italy.


The legend holds all Lithuanians are descended from Roman empire. The sibling of Nero named Palemon was said to had traveled to Lithuania and founded the town Palemonas (which still exists today) which later became a part of Kaunas city.
But truly those were only local legends, popular in 15th - 16th century. Do not get people mistaken - none were really Italian - including Pacai family, which name in Lithuanian and Polish languages sounded like Latin PACE - 'peace'. The legend about their Roman origins was pure rumor made for favors of politics.
However, noble families of Pacai and Sapiega indeed liked baroque style. In Vilnius region named Antakalnis ("Upper Hill") they left a complex consisting from catholic Baroque Church of Christ the Remeeder (1694-1717) founded by Jan Sapiega, Sapiega palace (1691-1697) and catholic St. Peter and St. Paul's Church (1673 - 1701) founded by Mykolas Kazimieras Pacas. Italian architect Giambattista Frediani worked with St. Peter and St. Paul's Church and decorators Pietro Perti Peretti and Giovanni Maria Galli worked with all these objects. If you're interested enough how Italian masters became familiar with Lithuanian noble families, please remember that Bona Sforza was a Polish - Lithuanian queen, and she was cultural diva and even self taught urbanist, who re-planned entire medieval Kaunas city by herself only century before these objects.
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Old November 23rd, 2014, 06:00 PM   #34
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Gytis wrong thread... this one is about North-Eastern Europe with the baroque. And you're posting here buildings from the Commonwealth...
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Old November 23rd, 2014, 09:26 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catcha View Post
Gytis wrong thread... this one is about North-Eastern Europe with the baroque. And you're posting here buildings from the Commonwealth...
The new book I have just acquired ('Vilnius City of Strangers' in English) says: 'Baroque came to Vilnius [the capitol of Lithuania in case you don't know] directly from Rome, bringing the eminence of St Casimir back from its grave. The pope finally sanctified local worship of Casimir with declaration of sainthood in 1602. Two years later, Jesuits laid the foundation stone - a massive boulder brought to the city by a procession of seven hundred people - for the Saint Casimir Church in Vilnius. Modeled on the Il Gesu in Rome, the church was one of the first Baroque edificies erected outside Italy.' Can't find Poland mentioned here. Prove me wrong if you can.

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Old November 24th, 2014, 05:20 AM   #36
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1. Mate, look at the title of the topic.
2. Take a look at the map in post 25
3. Please read entries from page 1

Where did you see anything about Poland (except Polish examples of the architecture you posted)? It's Commonwealth with was mentioned and Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth is the maximum influence for baroque on that territory. Topic is about North-Eastern area outside this, as interest is to see any baroque outside the catholic influence.

4. Don't be ignorant.
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Old November 24th, 2014, 11:36 PM   #37
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Well, Gytis has showed somthing specyfic - created by Johann Christoph Glaubitz, silesian architect of german descent, polonized in Lithuania, the so-called Vilnius Baroque. It was somthing oryginal in Commonwealth.
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Old November 25th, 2014, 01:57 PM   #38
catcha
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Well, Gytis has showed somthing specyfic - created by Johann Christoph Glaubitz, silesian architect of german descent, polonized in Lithuania, the so-called Vilnius Baroque. It was somthing oryginal in Commonwealth.
Absolutely true. Unfortunately not relevant to the topic, as we could give many examples of local baroque from the Commonwealth (from which Glaubitz' in Vilnius vel Wilno is outstanding and only in it's kind). Those examples are not unusual as the Commonwealth's majority was catholic. Question is is this style actually exist outside Commonwealth (it's generalization) on the North-Eastern parts (colors pink and willow-green on the map) as those territories were luteran, orthodox etc and baroque is strongly linked with catholic ideology.

Last edited by catcha; November 25th, 2014 at 02:10 PM.
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Old November 26th, 2014, 07:14 PM   #39
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Well but this sound strange especially when we consider that St. Petersburg was established in 1703, in the late years of the first half of that century there was no more baroque... So examples of peterin baroque are very interesting but as an example in my opinion are not really that great, those buildings were build by Italian masters introducing mixture of exotic for Europe kinda Bizantine style with classical baroque however outside St. Petersburg this style is almost non existent in Russia. So how could be those few (great) buildings be extremely relevant?

Three phases of baroque:
Early Baroque, c.1590–c.1625
High Baroque, c.1625–c.1660
Late Baroque, c.1660–c.1725
While they weren't relevant for the further development of baroque since they were built at the end of the era, they certainly are relevant contributions to the baroque canon.
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Old November 27th, 2014, 03:04 PM   #40
catcha
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While they weren't relevant for the further development of baroque since they were built at the end of the era, they certainly are relevant contributions to the baroque canon.
Yes true and no one doubts in that but this thread is called: Baroque of North-Eastern Europe: Relevant of Non-existent?. What is the point of placing examples from not North-Eastern Europe? Commonwealth was not North-Eastern Europe... And baroque from catholic majority territory has nothing unusual in itself (well Vilnius vel Wilno is even more Central Europe geographically and Western culturally).
Question is: Is there any baroque outside this land where majority was luteran/protestant and orthodox?

So far on page one we have some nice examples of baroque variations, very rare tries as baroque except St. Petersburg (as per this city's nature/history/origin) is practically non-existent.
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