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Old January 8th, 2015, 03:32 AM   #201
brianmoon85
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Originally Posted by aquaticko View Post
I don't know why so many Koreans seem to not understand that national prestige for them must come from supporting Korean things. I'm not talking mindless nationalism (which the country is paradoxically well-known for), but support for innovative, noteworthy, and things which are notably "Korean".

How can a whole country of people get this thing so wrong so consistently?
it's because Koreans have this mentality 'ALL FOREIGN THINGS ARE BETTER' state of mind. I'm currently in Korea and people here really bow down to everything Western or "American". The nation "may" be 1st world but the citizens are still low class third world status
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Old January 8th, 2015, 04:06 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by brianmoon85 View Post
it's because Koreans have this mentality 'ALL FOREIGN THINGS ARE BETTER' state of mind. I'm currently in Korea and people here really bow down to everything Western or "American". The nation "may" be 1st world but the citizens are still low class third world status
I disagree with that statement. There is a strong pro-novelty trend in Korea, as well as a deep interest for foreign brands and products.

But at the same time, for many global brands, Korea is known as one of the most difficult markets to penetrate, as it almost systematically develops alternatives to global brands.

This dichotomy is very strong in many facets of the country. One one side, a strong nationalist and protectionnist background, and on the other side, at the same time, an inferiority complex about being Korean and a great deal of interest for everything Western and American.
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Old January 8th, 2015, 06:00 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by brianmoon85 View Post
it's because Koreans have this mentality 'ALL FOREIGN THINGS ARE BETTER' state of mind. I'm currently in Korea and people here really bow down to everything Western or "American". The nation "may" be 1st world but the citizens are still low class third world status

So why are you live in and go abroad to "western country" behind back to your third world status south korea?

if now you live in another country(such like a south america or middle east) and criticized for korean, then I would admit with you.
but look at your UNIFORM!! Now you live in western country and criticized for korean as western admire? LOL It is contradiction stance.(but I glad that you are USA soldier. you are the one of world peace keeper. you be proud man. but don;t shot on me)

Your are right in korean western things are much better. especially EUROPE culture is best in korea.(actually America is best. but some PRO-north korean in south korea dislike USA. So eurpoe become no 1 advance culture in korea society)
for example Most luxury apartment's brand name is WESTERN naming. such like lotte castle/zai/queendom/hills state/I park/tower palace.

Even seoul mayor think himself Seoul assume like a europe cities(something likes a PARIS OR LONDON) hilarious
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Old January 8th, 2015, 06:21 AM   #204
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it's because Koreans have this mentality 'ALL FOREIGN THINGS ARE BETTER' state of mind.
Korea is one of the few countries where national tv productions and theatrical releases beat Hollywood.
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Old January 8th, 2015, 10:16 PM   #205
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SAM_3971 by inno4321, on Flickr

한국감정원 korea estimate institute building
SAM_3972 by inno4321, on Flickr

서울의료원 seoul medical center

SAM_3973 by inno4321, on Flickr

These both project site very closed from Hyundai HQ gangnam project(only 20m away FROM HYUNDAI HQ PROJECT) http://me2.do/5hhjjtsh
Already samsung buying the 한국감정원 korea estimate institute building(above first yellow one)
and samsung try to buying beside 서울의료원 seoul medical center.
these tow area can develop another tall building.

So though samsung failure in the bid competitive in KEPCO site. and hyunda get KEPCO site.
But samsung probably built another spectacle tall building in these area
Let's keep on iron it with Hyundai HQ project.

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Korea is one of the few countries where national tv productions and theatrical releases beat Hollywood.
also Motors and semi conductor/heavy ship making/home appliance/smart phone/construction ability etc.

in my opinions south korea is one of top 5 industry country in the world with USA/GERMANY/JAPAN/CHINA
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Old January 8th, 2015, 11:56 PM   #206
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Oh, Korea is absolutely known for its industry. It's one of the top 5 automobile producers, arguably the top ship builder (China's industry makes more in terms of tonnage, but isn't nearly as advanced), and major personal electronics producer. I think it's also fair to say that, at this point, South Korea is Asia's leader in media, with films, TV shows, and pop music. It just doesn't yet lead, or even really register, as among the best in most of those fields.

Where is Korea's Porsche or Ferrari? Where is Korea's Chanel or Gucci or hell, even its Zara or IKEA? Where is Korea's Rem Koolhaas or I. M. Pei? People like to be able to identify countries by high-profile things they produce, and other than (ironically) Samsung phones and Hyundai cars--neither of which are considered industry-leading--Korea doesn't have anything domestic answers to those kinds of things.

All that is why I think it's important for Hyundai to solicit designs from Korean architects, like Min-seok Cho's Mass Studies, HAEAHN, Moon Hoon, and Haenglim. Once again: if Chung is really interested in helping Korea's economy, he'd be smart to hire a Korean architect to show the world that Korea is good at more than oiltankers, smartphones, and middle-of-the-road cars.
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Old January 9th, 2015, 12:27 AM   #207
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But what if there won't be a perfect design from a domestic firm?

Korea is just at the beginning when it comes to the creative and design industry. Samsung for example has their design office in london, Hyundai hired german designers to design the legendary kia K5 or K7.

When firms like gucci or ikea made big business and operated well, Korea was still recovering from the total destruction after the war. within just 1 generation and out of nothing this tiny country became global player in so many industries and an undoubted leader in technology. how much more can a country achieve in such short time? korea's time for design and creativity will come, don't worry. its just the beginning.
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Old January 9th, 2015, 12:44 AM   #208
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But what if there won't be a perfect design from a domestic firm?

Korea is just at the beginning when it comes to the creative and design industry. Samsung for example has their design office in london, Hyundai hired german designers to design the legendary kia K5 or K7.

When firms like gucci or ikea made big business and operated well, Korea was still recovering from the total destruction after the war. within just 1 generation and out of nothing this tiny country became global player in so many industries and an undoubted leader in technology. how much more can a country achieve in such short time? korea's time for design and creativity will come, don't worry. its just the beginning.
Design and creativity will indeed come. But here's my opinion, in reaction to aquaticko's thoughts:

1/ It's nice to have a nice consumer brand, à la Ferrari (revenue: $2bn) or Zara (revenue: $20bn). It's a "sexy" appeal to the country's brand. But do you know what's better? Having firms like POSCO. It sure isn't a big brand, but it brings in $60bn in revenue. Consumer products and brands with strong image are overrated because they're exactly that, designed for consumers around their image. I'd like for 8seconds or Bean Pole to become the next Zara, but maintaining the country's existing competitive avantages is far more important.

2/ You can't build up a consumer industry in a few years, or even in a few decades. These take prestige, history, culture. Swiss watches wouldn't be possible without centuries of craftsmanship, Ferrari still benefits from its association with the early days of early racing almost a century ago. Same goes for Chanel, whose brand equity is still derived from the delicate culture of "Années Folles" (Roaring Twenties) and the development of the fashion industry in France. On the other side, in say, shipbuilding, prestige is hardly an issue, so if you can come up with a better ship at a lower price point, you will win market shares quickly. So these capital intensive, B2B industries build up quicker (5, 10 years...), and that was the rational choice to make for Korea in the 70es and 80es, given the structure of the Korean society and industry at the time.

3/ In spite of all that, Korea's creativity in indeed getting more and more recognized. Obvious examples include cinema (since 1999 and Swiri), of course K-Pop (less than 10 years ago), but many Korean architects, designers, artists have seen their reputation grow tremendously over the last 10 years. But as always, this creativity takes time to develop, and the prestige and image even more time to obtain. It will come, but it is and always will be a long process.
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Old January 9th, 2015, 01:24 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by humptydumpty7 View Post
But what if there won't be a perfect design from a domestic firm?

Korea is just at the beginning when it comes to the creative and design industry. Samsung for example has their design office in london, Hyundai hired german designers to design the legendary kia K5 or K7.

When firms like gucci or ikea made big business and operated well, Korea was still recovering from the total destruction after the war. within just 1 generation and out of nothing this tiny country became global player in so many industries and an undoubted leader in technology. how much more can a country achieve in such short time? korea's time for design and creativity will come, don't worry. its just the beginning.

That is absolutely right

Hyundai recruit Albert Biermann of BMW Best designer one month ago.
Albert Biermann is amazing big designer in motors field.
also KIA motors hired Peter Schreyer of Audi TT germany.

that is true south korea devastate during korean war. I remeber when i was elementary children my house so tiny 6 family live in small rent house.maybe 36m2?
at that time i used to boil noodle and rice in middle size oil lamp, and bring some second hand used paper stuff to school for gathering. then my teacher give us some study point. and small un-color tv. even my running shoes tear apart and my foot finger showing outside. everything was slum and poor.
but now changed
i'm really appreciated my parents age sacrifice and world many countries who participated on korean war. and USA
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Old January 9th, 2015, 02:27 AM   #210
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I think it is possible for corporations to build consumer industries within a matter of years or decades. Take Japan's video game industry and Korea's cosmetic industry. What do you think? By the way, Korea does have its own high-end fashion brands and other luxuries. Ever heard of Missha, or Espionage? Just because it is not popular in the west right now does not mean that it does not exist.

On another topic:
For me, Korea's economic rise is just as impressive than Japan's or even China's. I just look at this chart and go...



It makes me wonder what other nation will become the next South Korea.

*edit
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Old January 9th, 2015, 03:03 AM   #211
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I think it is possible for corporations to build consumer industries within a matter of years or decades. Take Japan's video game industry and Korea's cosmetic industry. What do you think? By the way, Korea does have its own high-end fashion brands and other luxuries. Ever heard of Missha, or Espionage? Just because it is not popular in the west right now does not mean that it does not exist.

On another topic:
For me, Korea's economic rise is more impressive than Japan's or even China's. I just look at this chart and go...



It makes me wonder what other nation will become the next South Korea.

*edit
I'm fully aware of all the burgeoning Korean "lifestyle" brands. Yes, they are making inroads, finally. As you mentioned, cosmetics is probably the prime example with BB Cream being the runaway product. But still, it is still in development. Virtually all Koreans know of L'Oréal or Estée Lauder, but how many Westerners can mention only one of the AmorePacific brands? Still few. These are indeed very good products, but my point was, in consumer products, being good isn't enough, it takes time. I have no doubt that in 5 or 10 years, many of these brand will rightfully have better awareness in the West.

Also, the historical context is very important. Many of the current leading industries result of political and economical decisions made in the 1980s (ie. pre-1987 and pre-democracy). At the time, it made no sense to push these industries (cosmetics...) when no one could put Korea on a map, wages were kept very low (they were no trade unions,...) - so low purchasing power - , and much less leisure time. Heavier- infrastructure- and export-orientated industries were sensible choices at the time.

Now these new consumer industries are indeed coming forward, and President Park's n°1 economic priority is named "Creative Economy". It will bear fruit, and it already does, as you rightfully mentioned, but right now these new industries are still in a growing process.
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Old January 9th, 2015, 03:37 AM   #212
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Your rebuttal is well put, kimahrikku. However, it is precisely because the industries in which Korea is most competitive are not prestige-based but simply cost- and technology-based, combined with the fact that prestige-building takes time, that is so important that Korea begin nurturing brand equity now, when it still has profitable industries to support that kind of effort.

China will almost certainly do to Korea's industries what Korea has done to Japan's (and Japan did to the U.S.') unless Korea can begin to move up the value chain. I think it's fair to say that for the world's most storied brands, their nationality now has a huge role to play; for many people, France and Italyare high fashion, and Germany, Italy, and Japan are performance and luxury cars, and Switzerland watches and banking, Japan high-quality electronics, etc.

Korea needs to be known for something in the way those nations are known for something if its economy is going to transition away from chaebol-centered heavy industry, which history, nevermind Korea's social stats, say it must.

We all know that Korea has the potential to make this transition, with architectural firms like those aforementioned, fashion brands like E Sang Bong, JohnnyHatesJazz, Son Jung-wan and Choi Bo-ko, and the sheer number of art galleries which open (many of which are, happily, sponsored by the chaebol!) on a regular basis showing the creative vitality of the peninsula. But there's yet to form a strong Korean "brand" that undergirds all of this.

Having a spotlight shown on something as high-brow as South Korea's architectural prowess with such a large project, for one of South Korea's two largest companies, would be great. And I'd be amazed if there weren't enough amazing proposals, from all corners, to make a Korean pick as unforced as any other.
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Old January 9th, 2015, 11:59 AM   #213
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The GDS architecture firm was most likely there, considering that they have a branch in South Korea
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Old January 9th, 2015, 12:04 PM   #214
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Also, PLEASE keep these sort of topics out of the thread, it has nothing to do with the GBC. Some of the comments you post include some prejudice. So, please stop.
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Old January 9th, 2015, 01:03 PM   #215
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That's not at all true. Chung Mong-ku said that he's building this tower in part because he wants to help Korea's economy; I've been trying to explain why, if he's really serious about that, he ought to choose a Korean architectural firm's design. Also, criticism isn't prejudice: I love Korea, and hope I can go back some day, but as with my own country, I'm not going to pretend that everything's perfect. I won't go into what I mean by that for South Korea in particular (again), but Chung has explicitly linked this project with Korea's greater good, so none of this is off-topic, strictly speaking.
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Old January 9th, 2015, 07:54 PM   #216
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Your rebuttal is well put, kimahrikku. However, it is precisely because the industries in which Korea is most competitive are not prestige-based but simply cost- and technology-based, combined with the fact that prestige-building takes time, that is so important that Korea begin nurturing brand equity now, when it still has profitable industries to support that kind of effort.

China will almost certainly do to Korea's industries what Korea has done to Japan's (and Japan did to the U.S.') unless Korea can begin to move up the value chain. I think it's fair to say that for the world's most storied brands, their nationality now has a huge role to play; for many people, France and Italyare high fashion, and Germany, Italy, and Japan are performance and luxury cars, and Switzerland watches and banking, Japan high-quality electronics, etc.

Korea needs to be known for something in the way those nations are known for something if its economy is going to transition away from chaebol-centered heavy industry, which history, nevermind Korea's social stats, say it must.

We all know that Korea has the potential to make this transition, with architectural firms like those aforementioned, fashion brands like E Sang Bong, JohnnyHatesJazz, Son Jung-wan and Choi Bo-ko, and the sheer number of art galleries which open (many of which are, happily, sponsored by the chaebol!) on a regular basis showing the creative vitality of the peninsula. But there's yet to form a strong Korean "brand" that undergirds all of this.

Having a spotlight shown on something as high-brow as South Korea's architectural prowess with such a large project, for one of South Korea's two largest companies, would be great. And I'd be amazed if there weren't enough amazing proposals, from all corners, to make a Korean pick as unforced as any other.
Very good points you're making here. I think our difference of opinions came from the fact that I had more of a historical perspective while yours was a prospective one. I agree that in 2015, growing the Korean brand power and creativity is a priority.

I don't know so much about Koreans architectural firms, but I too would have liked at least one of them being selected amongst the 15 firms selected to submit designs for the project.
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Old January 9th, 2015, 10:32 PM   #217
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That's not at all true. Chung Mong-ku said that he's building this tower in part because he wants to help Korea's economy; I've been trying to explain why, if he's really serious about that, he ought to choose a Korean architectural firm's design. Also, criticism isn't prejudice: I love Korea, and hope I can go back some day, but as with my own country, I'm not going to pretend that everything's perfect. I won't go into what I mean by that for South Korea in particular (again), but Chung has explicitly linked this project with Korea's greater good, so none of this is off-topic, strictly speaking.

OK everyone understand your profound knowledge about skorea. I admit it.
but please don't worry.

One weeks ago. Chung Mong-ku official announce to invest $ 81 billions plan.
$ 81billions is most hugest investment plan since hyundai kia founding.

The nub of the matter is among $81billions they $61 billions invest on KOREA economy. which means hyundai two thirds(76%) investment concentrated on korea economy.
so how can blame Chung Mong-ku didn't contribute to korea economy?
http://news.mk.co.kr/newsRead.php?year=2015&no=14596

in the world which company investment $61billions in korea economy? Only Hyundai. some people complain about hyundai spent huge money to buying KEPCO gangnam project site. but as you know KEPCO's sold out money $10 billions flow into KOREA public company and korea government and in result to KOREANS themselves! this is hyundai's contribute. not toyota/not BMW/NOT APPLE but hyundai.

IN COMPARISON with seoul mayor who reject $10 billions investment OF sanders group in JAMSIL(only 500m away from this hyundai HQ project). even sanders group's CEO come to seoul city by his private airplane then mayor decline $10billions investment on SEOUL economy. Chung Mong-ku and seoul mayor which one is more bad guy in korea economy? absolutely seoul mayor.

moreover frankly i don't like korea architecture firms and korean's stance about skyscraper. they used to attack supertall project in seoul.
even in the case of YONGSAN IBD they express their complain that they have a small part of design jobs in whole project.

but in the situation project crisis they keep silence about yongsan project. Just sit and waiting disaster. even back bite yongsan ibd.

KOREA construction company have a ability to built over 1km megatall. and some part of design ability almost catch up western design firms.
but if they want get a job they must changed their pessimistic attitude about skyscraper first
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Old January 10th, 2015, 06:28 AM   #218
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ENR(Engineering News Record) based in US selected <The Top 225 International Design Firms>, including twelve Korean architect firms as belows :

33위 - 현대엔지니어링 Hyundai Engineering
73위 - 한국전력기술 kepco-enc
119위 - 삼우종합건축사사무소 Samoo
149위 - 희림종합건축사사무소 Heerim
157위 - 포스코엔지니어링 POSCO Engineering
165위 - 도화엔지니어링 Dohwa
178위 - 건화 Kunhwa
183위 - 유신 Yooshin
186위 - 삼안 Saman
195위 - 포스코건설 POSCO Con.
199위 - 정림건축종합건축사사무소 Junglim
202위 - 한국종합기술 KECC

and all these firms earned $1bn in 2013 in international market, and got market share 1.4% (it's small but higher than 0.9% of Japan.)
http://www.cnews.co.kr/uhtml/read.js...91713476710250

actually Korean architect firms have grown quite as much as other industries in Korea, but has long way to take still.

I hope too Hyundai to give some chances to some of the firms to take part in the new Gangnam tower.
Maybe Samoo, Heerim, Kunhwa, Saman will be nice.
Hyundai Engineering is just specialized to design industrial structures and plants, so it'll not good for this project.
Samoo was bought by Samsung, so it'll not be easy to be selected.

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Old January 10th, 2015, 06:48 AM   #219
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another source includes six korean firms in top 100.

'Building Design' (based in UK) surveyed top 100 international design firms by the size of sales and human resources in 2014.
and six korean firms were as follows :

15위 삼우 Samoo
17위 희림건축 Heerim
19위 정림건축 Junglim
27위 해안건축 Haeahn
40위 선진엔지니어링 Sunjin
46위 현대종합설계 Hyundai architects.
http://www.cnews.co.kr/uhtml/read.js...81630353740609

* 간삼(Gansam) and 건원(Kunwon) didn't responded the survey and so not included.

.
.
.
.
.

Oh, I found now Hyundai architects is affiliate of Hyundai motor group. !!!
http://www.hda.co.kr/eng/company/greeting.asp
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Old January 10th, 2015, 02:08 PM   #220
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81 BILLION???? What can they possibly want to do??? Must be one heck of a landmark
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