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Old July 25th, 2015, 06:03 AM   #61
ssiguy2
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It's great to see Adelaide ridership grow but I must confess I am surprised the figures are that low to begin with. Calgary transit serves the city of 1.2 million {it doesn't serve any suburban areas towns/cities} and had ridership in 2014 of 110 million.

How does Adelaide stack up against the other big Australian cities in total and per-capita ridership?
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Old July 25th, 2015, 07:18 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssiguy2 View Post
It's great to see Adelaide ridership grow but I must confess I am surprised the figures are that low to begin with. Calgary transit serves the city of 1.2 million {it doesn't serve any suburban areas towns/cities} and had ridership in 2014 of 110 million. How does Adelaide stack up against the other big Australian cities in total and per-capita ridership?
Poorly. In short.

Adelaide is in a bad way. They believed high prices for iron ore and uranium would bring prosperity, but missed out. They spent fifty years trying to persuade others NOT to develop Adelaide, discouraging the development of highrise downtown, avoided spending money on roads or rail. This is where they are now.
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Old July 25th, 2015, 10:36 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssiguy2 View Post
It's great to see Adelaide ridership grow but I must confess I am surprised the figures are that low to begin with. Calgary transit serves the city of 1.2 million {it doesn't serve any suburban areas towns/cities} and had ridership in 2014 of 110 million.

How does Adelaide stack up against the other big Australian cities in total and per-capita ridership?
I'm not sure that apples are compared to apples when comparing different cities ridership. Everyone makes a big deal about how bad Adelaide's PT patronage is and how supa dupa Perth is, yet official ABS statistic show only a slight difference of the % of total trips are done by PT. Perth, similar to Vancouver, has a great system of bus to train transfers where a single trip is counted twice. Adelaide has far less transfers because many buses run parallel to train lines, all the way from the outer suburbs to the CBD (which is silly). This seems to affect patronage stats as it makes it look like trips per capita are way different, but many trips are counted twice (1 on the bus, then another on the connecting train), which seems to inflate Vancouver's figures. Not sure how Calgary works in this case

Then we have a case where a third of our light rail line is free travel, but we don't include the people who travel for free (which is in the busiest area) in any stats. We are told that the Glenelg tramline is apparently poorly used compared to the Gold Coast tram, yet I use our tram regularly in the free area and its always overcrowded. Go figure. For the first time they have estimated that 8 million trips per year are the free ones, on top of the 67 million paid ones for the system
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Old July 25th, 2015, 11:52 AM   #64
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Poorly. In short.

Adelaide is in a bad way. They believed high prices for iron ore and uranium would bring prosperity, but missed out. They spent fifty years trying to persuade others NOT to develop Adelaide, discouraging the development of highrise downtown, avoided spending money on roads or rail. This is where they are now.
This is news to me. I must be living in a different Adelaide then.

The only thing that is a bad way is the state economy which is largely due to the shift away from the dying manufacturing and industrial sector. Adelaide itself however is going through a major resurgence with major infrastructure projects and this which is making the city a far more attractive city to live, visit and invest.

Since the State Government took control of CBD developments, lifted height restrictions and axed stamp duty there has been a major influx of residential apartments going up throughout the city and this trend is showing no signs of slowing down. The Adelaide Oval redevelopment on the other-hand has contributed to a number of current hotel accommodation projects.

The railway network is slowly being electrified and improved (although not fast enough) and major road projects are underway or planned. Also, unlike some other states, there is billions or possibly trillions worth of resources buried underneath the SA outback that is still yet to be untaped.
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Old July 26th, 2015, 03:59 AM   #65
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This is news to me. I must be living in a different Adelaide then. The only thing that is a bad way is the state economy which is largely due to the shift away from the dying manufacturing and industrial sector. Adelaide itself however is going through a major resurgence with major infrastructure projects and this which is making the city a far more attractive city to live, visit and invest. Since the State Government took control of CBD developments, lifted height restrictions and axed stamp duty there has been a major influx of residential apartments going up throughout the city and this trend is showing no signs of slowing down. The Adelaide Oval redevelopment on the other-hand has contributed to a number of current hotel accommodation projects. The railway network is slowly being electrified and improved (although not fast enough) and major road projects are underway or planned. Also, unlike some other states, there is billions or possibly trillions worth of resources buried underneath the SA outback that is still yet to be untaped.
You are talking recent years. Adelaide's malaise going back decades. Dunstan was your only bright spot.
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Old July 26th, 2015, 06:08 PM   #66
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You are talking recent years. Adelaide's malaise going back decades. Dunstan was your only bright spot.
Coming from a place that was once regarded an industrial backwater. It's only been recent years since things have turned around.

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Old July 26th, 2015, 06:59 PM   #67
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Try to avoid mudslinging fights in this section of the forum - it won't be tolerated here.
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Old July 27th, 2015, 07:59 AM   #68
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When comparing Adelaide to Calgary in terms of public transit I was not in ANY way trying to insult Adelaide. I've heard it's a lovely city and would very much like to visit and it holds far more interest to me than Perth or Brisbane.

Calgary is unique in that it is a huge head office city {as you can plainly see from any skyline pic} and it is extremely centralized. It has 4 LRT lines radiating from it's core with funding for a new 50km line just announced the other day by the federal gov't. The fact that this has come just 3 months before a federal election is pure coincidence.

Calgary has the most successful LRT system in NA carrying 330,000 passengers a day yet serves only 1.2 million. Despite Vancouver's love affair with itself and always trying to prove how "green" it is, Vancouver is behind Cal/Ott and of course Tor/Mon in per-capita ridership.

Calgary's ridership is even more impressive when you consider Alberta has the lowest gas prices, income taxes in the country, no provincial sales tax, and has the highest income level in the country...........a full 30% higher than Vancouver.

Anyway, I'm glad to see Adelaide investing in it's transit. I've tried to find transit stats for Australian cities but can never find any.
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Old July 27th, 2015, 04:40 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssiguy2 View Post
When comparing Adelaide to Calgary in terms of public transit I was not in ANY way trying to insult Adelaide. I've heard it's a lovely city and would very much like to visit and it holds far more interest to me than Perth or Brisbane.

Calgary is unique in that it is a huge head office city {as you can plainly see from any skyline pic} and it is extremely centralized. It has 4 LRT lines radiating from it's core with funding for a new 50km line just announced the other day by the federal gov't. The fact that this has come just 3 months before a federal election is pure coincidence.

Calgary has the most successful LRT system in NA carrying 330,000 passengers a day yet serves only 1.2 million. Despite Vancouver's love affair with itself and always trying to prove how "green" it is, Vancouver is behind Cal/Ott and of course Tor/Mon in per-capita ridership.

Calgary's ridership is even more impressive when you consider Alberta has the lowest gas prices, income taxes in the country, no provincial sales tax, and has the highest income level in the country...........a full 30% higher than Vancouver.

Anyway, I'm glad to see Adelaide investing in it's transit. I've tried to find transit stats for Australian cities but can never find any.
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Canadian cities are way ahead of Australian cities since the 1960s in public transport infrastructure. Toronto and Montreal built subway systems, Edmonton and Calgary built great light rail systems, Toronto with the sky train. Australia went down the opposite American path during the 1960s to 80s and neglected PT in favour of cars. Our suburban (metropolitan) rail systems are virtually legacy 19th century systems and in the case of Adelaide, we have our largest suburban shopping centre built 750 mtrs from a train station with no connections so no one uses the train to go there (Oaklands to Marion Shopping Centre). We have a station (Tonsley) that sits about 500 mtrs from a major university, but no ones uses the train because its not walkable and no bus connections to the uni, and many of our northern line stations are surrounded immediately by abandoned factories, or empty fields, or cemeteries. Melbourne also has some examples of this, whereas Sydney does have proper rail based suburban centres. You guys have purpose built people movers so no surprises on the better patronage, ours operate like a bus route on rails for CBD commuters. We are getting slightly better though
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Old July 27th, 2015, 05:39 PM   #70
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That said, I sometimes wonder that cities in Australia would have had some pretty impressive transport systems before the 1950s, back in the first half of the 20th century. Back then virtually all major cities in Australia (Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane, Adelaide, Perth and even Auckland in New Zealand) had their own sizeable tram networks, and in the case of Sydney its network was even larger than Melbourne's today and in its peak in the 1940s carried more passengers than the entire Sydney Trains system does today, when the city was less than a third the size. Most of Sydney and Melbourne's current train networks dates back to the 19th/early 20th century and in the case of Sydney has been electrified since the 1930s. Then of course the 50's came and in an act of planning brilliance all those cities in Australia and New Zealand had their tram networks, which have been carrying passengers for more than half a century completely demolished, with the only exceptions being Adelaide which demolished all but one line, and Melbourne which thankfully retained their system. Who would have known back then that 60 years onwards, those trams would become the pride of Melbourne
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Old July 28th, 2015, 12:14 AM   #71
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Actually the reason why Canadian cities have higher PT usage is mostly due to them having superior bus networks. When you take into account the population difference the rail usage in Melbourne and Toronto is pretty similar, Toronto just has way higher bus usage.
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Old July 28th, 2015, 01:42 AM   #72
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There's one thing you have to be mindful of though when you compare transport stats from different cities and agencies especially from different countries. As I understand in most of North America annual ridership stats calculated by counting the number of boardings on transport vehicles (ie from the number of entries and exits made on vehicles), while in Sydney's case (and perhaps for other Australian cities as well?) the figures are calculated primarily based on ticket sales. Figures can vary rather wildly depending on methodology so you have to keep that in mind.
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Old July 28th, 2015, 02:54 AM   #73
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I have heard that car parking in downtown Calgary is very expensive and hence the light rail owes some of its success to that, whereas Adelaide followed the example of many American cities and encouraged people to drive into the city centre filling up multi-storey parking stations (Adelaide has Australia's cheapest CBD car parks)
According to Wikipedia, Adelaide metro density is 396 people per square kilometre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adelaidewhilst whilst the city of Calgary (not necessarily the entire metro area) is 3,257 people per square kilometre. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calgary That is a huge difference........and also explains higher car use in Adelaide.
I checked out the photo of Calgary city centre on Wikipedia and yes it looks like a booming city (thanks to the resources boom?) probably comparable to Perth in Australia.
Adelaide is also a victim of its own planning success, originally conceived by a town planner (Colonel William Light) the city had huge roads from the beginning (planned so that armies were able to march down them) so when the motor car become ubiquitous in the 50's/60's the roads easily coped.
Fortunately the last 10 years Adelaide has re-discovered it's "urbanity" (as opposed to the suburban life-style which has reigned supreme for the last 50 years) and things like public transport have received new investment and the public has responded in increase use.
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Old July 28th, 2015, 06:20 AM   #74
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Yes, Calgary has the second highest parking rates in NA. The city began it's emerge as a head office city in the 1960s and so decided to concentrate all that growth downtown. At the same time they brought in those huge taxes to make parking downtown very expensive in order to encourage people to take public transit. That was VERY forward thinking in the 1960s in Canada's fastest growing and very wealthy city. For a new city, Calgary has made a lot of good planning decisions. In 1950 metropolitan Calgary had almost exactly one-tenth the population it has today.

Any Canadian city would give it's left nut to have rail systems like Australian cities do. I do however get the impression that for the vast majority of Australians, transit seems more like something you do to get downtown for work but not a lot else. You also have to remember that Canadian cities are more densely populated and the suburbs MUCH more densely populated with many high rises even in the suburbs.
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Old July 28th, 2015, 07:32 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssiguy2 View Post

Any Canadian city would give it's left nut to have rail systems like Australian cities do. I do however get the impression that for the vast majority of Australians, transit seems more like something you do to get downtown for work but not a lot else.
Depends...on which city you live in.....and where in that city you live. If you live in inner city Sydney or Melbourne you are less likely to have a car. Personally I have not owned a car since 1993....
You can live in inner city Adelaide, Brisbane, and Perth pretty easily without a car but as soon as you venture into suburbia (and I don't mean a line on a map that says city/suburb, I mean density and style of housing) Australians buy cars in droves.
Sydney has the best public transport in the country, my local train has a frequency of every 10 min (maximum) so I never need to look at a timetable......but if I was going out into far flung suburbia then I would look at timetables.
Sydney also has 24/7 bus routes and night buses after the train network shuts down for the night, no other Australian city can match this.
Density provides the key to train use....low density sprawl does not encourage public transport at high frequencies so that is why our numbers are so low.....but it could be worse, there are plenty of American cities (with similar populations) that have far worse public transport.
Btw I have been to Canada (in 1999) I went to Vancouver, Toronto, Montreal and Quebec City. Nice country, nice people. Australians and Canadians definitely have some sort of affinity.
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Old July 28th, 2015, 03:45 PM   #76
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A little off topic but just wanted to say something regarding density. Thing is when you compare the densities of different cities you shouldn't rely on the official figures from wiki or the agencies responsible for the figures. Borders are arbitrary and a lot of cities, especially the Australian cities, have vast amounts of undeveloped land incorporated into the official metro area. What I like to do is to figure out exactly the size of the city's built up area, then figure out the population that lies within it. I like to use this site:

http://acme.com/planimeter/

I've tested it before by measuring areas that I already know the size of, and from that it seemed pretty accurate.

This is the metro Adelaide's official area:
http://blog2.id.com.au/wp-content/up...A_Adelaide.jpg

And here I very roughly highlighted the built up area using the site above:
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/465/1...3e7dfe46_o.jpg

And this is very roughly Calgary's built up area:
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/375/2...81ef4172_o.jpg

I tried to determine the population within that Adelaide area by adding up the local councils which that area lies within then subtracting the population of any outlying areas within those councils. From that I got to a total population of about 1,170,000 which equates to a density of about 1830 people/km2

I did a quick google search for Calgary's stats and came to this post from another forum:
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/show...8&postcount=44

Looking at that, it would seem that I can roughly get the population for the area I highlighted by using the population of the City of Calgary minus the outlying areas of Airdrie, Crossfield, Chestermere, Irricana and Cochrane (which I believe are incorporated into the City of Calgary?). I came to a total population of around 1,018,000 resulting in a density of around 1960 people/km2

So going by this it would seem that Adelaide's actual density isn't too far off Calgary's. A quick look around google street view would seem to support this too, you can take a look yourself and see if you agree here.

With Sydney, the official area claims to cover over 10,000km2, but the core built up area using that site is only around 1500km2. Melbourne's official figures claim an area of around 10,000km2 but its core built up area is around 1800km2 (iirc). Then there's others such as London, UK where the official boundaries for Greater London would seem to represent the size of its urban area fairly well in that most of the area within that boundary is built up.

And again, regarding transport ridership/patronage stats I'd like to stress that you have to keep in mind that those figures can vary greatly depending on the methods used by different agencies, or in the case of Sydney even the same agency itself revising its own methods (it happened a few years ago and resulted in a 9-17% decrease in the patronage figures). It'll be much more comparable if it was the same agency using the same method.

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Old July 29th, 2015, 12:00 AM   #77
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These figures are old but they prove my point entirely. The reason for Canadian cities having higher PT patronage is entirely due to having way higher bus patronage. Perth actually has the same per capita rail patronage as Vancouver. Even US cities have higher bus patronage.

In Australia the attitude seems to be that buses are only for the elderly and drug addicts who don't have a car.
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Old July 29th, 2015, 12:10 AM   #78
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Why are they showing LRT ridership for Vancouver when it doesn't have a single LRT line? It only has metro...
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Old July 29th, 2015, 12:52 AM   #79
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I have some doubts about that graph too. Isn't Sydney supposed to have the highest transport ridership in the country?

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In Australia the attitude seems to be that buses are only for the elderly and drug addicts who don't have a car.
I've never heard of that. In Sydney at least the inner city is heavily reliant on buses. During peak hours the CBD gets completely choked with buses to the point where traffic almost grinds to a complete standstill. Does that mean that everyone in inner Sydney are drug addicts?

Anyways I came up with this page from a quick google search:

http://www.lta.gov.sg/ltaacademy/doc...ModeShares.pdf

According to that, mass transit constitutes to 8% of all journeys in Melbourne, 11% in Sydney, 24% in Toronto and 16% in Chicago. However, you have to be careful when you compare Australian travel figures with North America because the stats for the Australian cities are for the entire metro area, while with the North American cities it's the city proper only. You would expect that if Australian cities had comparable 'city propers' the percentages would be much higher since transport patronage is higher as you get closer to the centre of the city.

Here's the percentage mode share journeys to work for the Australian cities, which are again for the entire metro. Are there any comparable stats for North American cities?


https://chartingtransport.files.word...are-trend7.png


Edit - found the stats for the Canadian CMAs!

http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/nhs-enm/2.../tbl1a-eng.cfm

Toronto - 23.3%
Montreal - 22.2%
Ottawa - Gatineau - 20.1%
Vancouver - 19.7%
Calgary - 15.9%
Edmonton - 11.3%

I find it a bit intriguing though how low Melbourne's percentage is compared to Sydney's. Everyone who's been to both cities would probably agree that transport around inner Melbourne is at the very least as good as Sydney's and arguably even more user friendly because of the trams. Rail in both cities offer a fairly similar level of service from my experience, although Melbourne's is a bit more centralised.

Last edited by nameless dude; July 29th, 2015 at 01:25 AM.
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Old July 29th, 2015, 01:26 AM   #80
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Former SSP forumer j.will posted the metro area figures for both Canada and US here but he doesn't seem to include a link to the original data source.
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