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Old May 7th, 2005, 01:30 AM   #21
Koi
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An Architect
You say all Shanghai's buildings are very ugly......please can you show us pictures of buildings which you consider to be beautiful.
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Old May 7th, 2005, 07:03 AM   #22
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too many supertalls bunched up on the right hand side...obscures the beauty of individual towers and makes a dense , but not elegant, skyline.
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Old May 7th, 2005, 07:21 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Koi
An Architect
You say all Shanghai's buildings are very ugly......please can you show us pictures of buildings which you consider to be beautiful.
i'd mention 3 already built - the bank of china towers in hong kong and shanghai, Jin Mao and the wafer-like building next to the bank of china shanghai tower.

the one yet to be built - the shanghai int'l finance center across the street from Jin Mao is superb, elegant masterpiece but the chinese have decided to add an ugly bridge structure at the top because some hot-headed chinese nationalists think that the building symbolizes the japanese flag.
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Old May 7th, 2005, 07:40 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alvin
too many supertalls bunched up on the right hand side...obscures the beauty of individual towers and makes a dense , but not elegant, skyline.
that's exactly right.

tall, well-designed buildings are meant to be seen, NOT hidden among other tall buildings. they must be spaced out and mixed with buildings of medium to low statue.

what's the point of spending money on a star architect for an expensive highrise design if it's going to be blocked from the view by other highrises? that's just common sense.

besides, such clustering of highrises decreases the property values of individual buildings in the area because of such mutual obstruction of views.

but then how can we expect Shanghai officials and Chinese in general to handle the more complex urban design issues when they have not only tolerated the ugly Oriental Pearl Tower - a failed design in my opinion even for an architecture freshman, they've embraced it. Their taste is simply too immature.

what is sad and embarrassing is that the Chinese are flashing these ugly buildings and assinine urban designs with pride, and sometimes even arrogance.

Last edited by an architect; May 8th, 2005 at 02:56 PM.
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Old May 7th, 2005, 09:18 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by an architect
that's exactly right.

tall, well-designed buildings are meant to be seen, NOT hidden among other tall buildings. they must be spaced out and mixed with buildings of medium to low statue.

otherwise, what's the point of spending money on a star architect for an expensive highrise design just to be blocked from the view by other highrises? that's just common sense.

besides, such clustering of highrises decreases the property values of individual buildings in the area because of such mutual obstruction of views.

but if Shanghai officials not only tolerate but embrace the ugly Oriental Pearl Tower - a failed design in my opinion even for an architecture freshman, then their taste is simply too immature to handle the more complex urban design issues.

what is sad and embarrassing is that the Chinese are flashing these ugly buildings and assinine urban designs with pride, and sometimes even arrogance.
Thats nonsense i think...
Many Nice Buildings in NYC or Chicago also hidden due to density...

Your judge about Pearl tower is relative.

I still can see many building with nice and futuristic architecture in Shanghai besides many old and ugly as well...
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Old May 7th, 2005, 09:21 AM   #26
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Anything is possible at Shianghai...........
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Old May 7th, 2005, 10:12 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IJKT123
Thats nonsense i think...
Many Nice Buildings in NYC or Chicago also hidden due to density...

Your judge about Pearl tower is relative.

I still can see many building with nice and futuristic architecture in Shanghai besides many old and ugly as well...
Your reply clearly shows that you have no common sense.

My guess is you are a Chinese.

Let me teach you a thing or two:

1. Shanghai is different from NY. The latter is an established, crowded but nonetheless first-rate city. Shanghai Pudong was designed from scratch. OK?

2. If you say that my comments were nonsense, then it means "well-designed expensive buildings should be hidden behind other tall buildings (good or mediocre or bad)". Use your brain a little harder and explain your "logic" to us. (by the way, do you know what "logic" is?)

3. your statement "Your judge about Pearl tower is relative." makes absolutely no sense to me. I said the Oriental Pearl Tower was very ugly. I mean it. I know many Chinese think highly of the ugly tower. That's why I said that many Chinese had bad taste for architecture. (actually the Chinese have bad taste for a lot of things ... music, performing arts like stupid "dragon dance", "lion dance", "kung fu movies" ... etc etc.

4. Even China's city and provincial government officials have increasingly turned to Western architects to design their major landmark projects. After all, it doesn't take a genius to tell an assinine Chinese design from an elegant Western design. You should learn from your government officials in this regard.

5. Get rid of your nationalistic passion when discussing arts, architecture, music or the likes with others.

6. Stop using the childish "he did it too" defense to justify incompetent planning. Grow up and think like an adult.
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Old May 7th, 2005, 10:45 AM   #28
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Personally I don't like Shanghai, except for the oriental tower and the International Financial Centre which has been proposed.
I don't like cities which are too dense, which makes the view pretty boring.

To an architect.
Please show your respect to other culture. I'm not being a hot-headed nationalist because I'm Chinese but not PRChinese.
It's just your personal point of view to say something's ugly, and it's always relative. Nobody has to adjust to your opinion on whether something's ugly or not.
I don't like the boring highrises in Shanghai, but it's not absolute. If somebody says it looks beautiful, that's totally fine.
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Old May 7th, 2005, 11:08 AM   #29
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Shanghai is not as crowded as u saw from the pix other than Najing Rd. (personally i dont like NJ Rd.) maybe SH is too dense for any other city and i am wrong because i am used to living in SH.
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Old May 7th, 2005, 11:29 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Pox
To an architect.
Please show your respect to other culture. I'm not being a hot-headed nationalist because I'm Chinese but not PRChinese.
It's just your personal point of view to say something's ugly, and it's always relative. Nobody has to adjust to your opinion on whether something's ugly or not.
I don't like the boring highrises in Shanghai, but it's not absolute. If somebody says it looks beautiful, that's totally fine.
Don't make groundless accusations. How was I disrespectful to other culture??????? I don't care whether you are Chinese or not. And I seriously suggest that you cut out this "relative vs absolute" nonsense. I know you were thinking in Chinese and trying to translate the ideas into English. But you failed. First you don't have a clear understanding of definitions and usage of "relative" & "absolute"; second you failed to see that you're imposing your views on me. You are free to disagree with my comments or judgement. No need for the nonsensical spin about "relative" and "absolute".

It's a virtual consensus among Western elite architects and top overseas Chinese architects (e.g. IM Pei) that the Chinese (mainland, taiwan, HK) have a rather immature taste (to put it respectfully) when it comes to fine architectures, to say the least.

That's a fact. (but you are free to disagree with facts.)

In fact, you are free to hold the opinion that only fat women over 400 pounds should be supermodels. You don't have to agree with the rest of the world. Do I care about your "relative"/"absolute" arguments behind your decision? NOT ONE BIT!
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Old May 7th, 2005, 04:40 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by an architect
Don't make groundless accusations. How was I disrespectful to other culture??????? I don't care whether you are Chinese or not. And I seriously suggest that you cut out this "relative vs absolute" nonsense. I know you were thinking in Chinese and trying to translate the ideas into English. But you failed. First you don't have a clear understanding of definitions and usage of "relative" & "absolute"; second you failed to see that you're imposing your views on me. You are free to disagree with my comments or judgement. No need for the nonsensical spin about "relative" and "absolute".

It's a virtual consensus among Western elite architects and top overseas Chinese architects (e.g. IM Pei) that the Chinese (mainland, taiwan, HK) have a rather immature taste (to put it respectfully) when it comes to fine architectures, to say the least.

That's a fact. (but you are free to disagree with facts.)

In fact, you are free to hold the opinion that only fat women over 400 pounds should be supermodels. You don't have to agree with the rest of the world. Do I care about your "relative"/"absolute" arguments behind your decision? NOT ONE BIT!
Whatever. You don't care, then I'll shut it up. After all, English isn't my first language, I surely can't compete with you on that.
It seems you just don't want to be nice.
I don't like Chinese cities anyway. Maybe you are right that most Chinese don't have a good taste on fine architectures.
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Old May 7th, 2005, 08:31 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by an architect
Don't make groundless accusations. How was I disrespectful to other culture??????? I don't care whether you are Chinese or not. And I seriously suggest that you cut out this "relative vs absolute" nonsense. I know you were thinking in Chinese and trying to translate the ideas into English. But you failed. First you don't have a clear understanding of definitions and usage of "relative" & "absolute"; second you failed to see that you're imposing your views on me. You are free to disagree with my comments or judgement. No need for the nonsensical spin about "relative" and "absolute".

It's a virtual consensus among Western elite architects and top overseas Chinese architects (e.g. IM Pei) that the Chinese (mainland, taiwan, HK) have a rather immature taste (to put it respectfully) when it comes to fine architectures, to say the least.

That's a fact. (but you are free to disagree with facts.)

In fact, you are free to hold the opinion that only fat women over 400 pounds should be supermodels. You don't have to agree with the rest of the world. Do I care about your "relative"/"absolute" arguments behind your decision? NOT ONE BIT!
Could you be full of any more shit? Taste is relative, saying anything else is complete crap. Do you know why these buildings get built? Because they appeal to the Chinese elite, and to the majority of Chinese, in China (The opinions of a few western educated/indoctrinated expats cannot be counted). If you actually go to Shanghai and ask the people there about their "tasteless architecture" they generally like it, that is why it gets built (amazing that leap of logic isn't it?).

Now for the rubbish about the buildings being "hidden behind each other"; This is simply not true. From certain angles buildings will obscure other buildings (this occurs in every city around the world) Your whole basis for arguing this point is a render from one angle, which is a fairly weak basis to build and argument on. If you actually look at the plan of Pudong, there is quite a lot of space between the super talls, and from most angles they are all clearly visible and no more obscured than what would be expected in a city of that density.

You also have the nerve to question why someone may have construed your ramblings as being disrespectful to the Chinese culture after stating:

That's why I said that many Chinese had bad taste for architecture. (actually the Chinese have bad taste for a lot of things ... music, performing arts like stupid "dragon dance", "lion dance", "kung fu movies" ... etc etc.

If you still can't see how this is disrespectful let me write up and example that you may be able to follow:

Actually the Europeans have a bad taste for a lot of things ... music, performing arts like stupid "Shakespearean theatre,” “ballet”, “romantic period music” … etc etc

Your comment about getting rid of nationalistic passion when discussing art is truly incredible. Some of the greatest music, art and architecture in the world was (and still is) created as a reflection on or as a result of nationalistic passion, designed specifically to invoke nationalistic passion and to approach this work without considering this would be the hight of ignorance.

Finally, please try and refrain from using contradictory arguments within the same post. I think you should get in the habit of makings at least 10 posts before contradicting yourself, it makes you look less stupid. Let me show you where you have done this:

“It's a virtual consensus among Western elite architects and top overseas Chinese architects (e.g. IM Pei) that the Chinese (mainland, taiwan, HK) have a rather immature taste (to put it respectfully) when it comes to fine architectures, to say the least.”

Now, here you are saying that the views of a few “elite architects” reflect the truth when it comes to architectural taste, and that the majority, the Chinese (including not only the main land but taiwan and HK!) are wrong. One sentence later however:

“In fact, you are free to hold the opinion that only fat women over 400 pounds should be supermodels. You don't have to agree with the rest of the world.”

Here you are using an example of a minority being wrong, in thinking that 400 pound women should be super models, because they do not agree with the majority, the rest of the world.

Now look, If you dislike Chinese architecture, art and culture, then I suggest you do not comment on it until you at least have some understanding of it, because clearly you have very little.

To borrow a leaf from your book: I know you were thinking from a western perspective and trying to ‘translate’ those ideas to use in your analysis of Chinese culture/architecture. But you failed. First you don't have a clear understanding of Chinese “culture” and “society”; second you failed to see that you're imposing your views on me.
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Old May 7th, 2005, 08:35 PM   #33
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Those are fantastic visuals. Cant wait to see some of it for real
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Old May 7th, 2005, 10:07 PM   #34
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JAKJ, I can summarize your post in two letters: B.S.

I don't want to waste too much time on a complete idiot like you. It's not my job to enlighten Chinese numbskulls who have been under prolonged nationalist indoctrination and who are suffering from serious inferiority complex. You mainland Chinese seem to have an obsession with this "relative"/"absolute" rubbish argument.

I don't like Chinese architecture, traditional or contemporary. But I believe I'm free to express my opinion in this forum. This is not China. I suggest you return to China if you don't believe in Western values. Why did you study English in the first place? LOL.

Obviously there are still Chinese (even those supposedly "educated" ones) who haven't learned the lesson the British taught them in the late 1800's.

Who do you think you are anyway? Someone bigger than I.M. Pei?

hahahahahahaha

sorry, as far as I'm concerned, you are a complete moron.
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Old May 7th, 2005, 10:32 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Pox
It seems you just don't want to be nice.
I don't like Chinese cities anyway. Maybe you are right that most Chinese don't have a good taste on fine architectures.
I tend to present my point of view or argument as is - unsweetened.

But we do have something in common - our views about Chinese cities and the poor aesthetics of their architectures.

I believe some senior Chinese government officials are beginning to see that their local architects have been erecting garbage monuments and polluting their city skylines. That's probably why American and European architects are becoming so popular in China despite the much higher fees they charge.
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Old May 7th, 2005, 10:39 PM   #36
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lol you take every chance to attack china and chinese seems to me you have inferiority complex.

take care bro.
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Old May 7th, 2005, 11:02 PM   #37
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It seems to me that an_architect has difficulty grasping the elementary notions of value relativity. When you finish becoming an architect you will no doubt understand that social and cultural sensitivity are essential in designing spaces and experiences that constitutes a reality for people.

Perhaps you're just a little unclear, perhaps you are many of the words you have called others, such as 'moron' or 'numbskulls'. I'm almost certain other posters will make their own mind up.

You guessed that the other user was 'a chinese'! Without even beginning to deconstruct your grammar I think I can guess that you are a Yank!

Please grow some respect and common decency and then critique others, you loser.
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Old May 8th, 2005, 12:52 AM   #38
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I love the third one. You could give some 5 of them to São Paulo, couldn't you?!
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Old May 8th, 2005, 04:05 AM   #39
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I think Shanghai's skyline has too many variety of buildings that won't look great together but i guess it was built for density not art..........
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Old May 8th, 2005, 06:18 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by an architect
Your reply clearly shows that you have no common sense.

My guess is you are a Chinese.

Let me teach you a thing or two:
Ha ha ha ha..... you become funnier and funnier....
Just because I do not agree with your reason then you judge me that I am chinese? and from what I observe you always accuse other ppl as chinese just bcs they dont agree with your opinion about everything related to china.

Your guess is totally wrong - I am not chinese - ... and now you show your self that your mind and opinion is not based on logic or common sense as your claim but only based on prejudice and feeling.....


Quote:
1. Shanghai is different from NY. The latter is an established, crowded but nonetheless first-rate city. Shanghai Pudong was designed from scratch. OK?
U said that shanghai arc is the ugliest bcs they are hidden. Now you say that its not applied to NYC because NYC is established, crowded, & first rate city (which sound to me as a silly reason from an architect).

Now explain: why being the "first rate city-crowded-established" make hidden building arch in NYC become not uggliest?? while hidden buildings in Shanghai which is designed from scratch is uggliest??

Pls dont ad more funny argument - just give us reasonable argument...

Quote:
2. If you say that my comments were nonsense, then it means "well-designed expensive buildings should be hidden behind other tall buildings (good or mediocre or bad)". Use your brain a little harder and explain your "logic" to us. (by the way, do you know what "logic" is?)
your logic is obviously fatally wrong..!
I never claim that hidden buildings make its architecture become good!! silly boy...

I only do not see the logic behind your statement that Shanghai building architectures is the ugliest just because they are hidden... (pls reffer back to your opinion).

You did not give reason why shanghai bld architecture are the ugliest except your nonsense reason that they are ugly because they are hidden!! (remember?)

I agree with many ppls statement that being hidden makes beauty of building's architecture become covered or unseen; but It is very silly to say that being hidden make an architecture of a building become very ugly...! moreover if it come out from mouth of an architect.

I wonder what kind of logic that u use. esp as you claim yourself as an architect...

Quote:
3. your statement "Your judge about Pearl tower is relative." makes absolutely no sense to me. I said the Oriental Pearl Tower was very ugly. I mean it. I know many Chinese think highly of the ugly tower. That's why I said that many Chinese had bad taste for architecture. (actually the Chinese have bad taste for a lot of things ... music, performing arts like stupid "dragon dance", "lion dance", "kung fu movies" ... etc etc.
But why??? why oriental pearl tower is very ugly..? give us reason...
We dont need your only blind claim that this one is very ugly and that one is very beautiful... we need REASON behind your claim. Especially as you claim yourself an architect.

Other wise you only show your self as a nonsense ps (using your logic I dare to say that you anti china?)

Remember somebody in this forum has ask you "what kind of building that you consider good architecture" and why... => you never respond to his question...

(btw: have u ever heard in your class that "taste" is subjective..??)


Quote:
4. Even China's city and provincial government officials have increasingly turned to Western architects to design their major landmark projects. After all, it doesn't take a genius to tell an assinine Chinese design from an elegant Western design. You should learn from your government officials in this regard.

5. Get rid of your nationalistic passion when discussing arts, architecture, music or the likes with others.

6. Stop using the childish "he did it too" defense to justify incompetent planning. Grow up and think like an adult.
Ha ha ha ha....
those argument has nothing to do with my question or with your reason why shanghai bld arch is the ugliest. Those only shows that you are a funboy who has antipaty with china arch or hurt heart bcs of china.

I do not say that chinese architecture is better than western, and I never say that chinese architecture is very good as well. I only wonder how you do claim that shanghai bld arc is the ugliest, and laugh at your reason that being hidden make the architecture become ugly...

Last edited by IJKT123; May 8th, 2005 at 06:48 AM.
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