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Old January 26th, 2015, 03:20 AM   #21
darko06
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Motorways (or freeways) on Cuba were all built, or started to build, before January 1st, 1959; i.e. before Castro brothers took power.
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Old January 26th, 2015, 03:42 AM   #22
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maybe consider lane-km instead of centreline km?
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Old January 26th, 2015, 04:05 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usbhub View Post
Two motorways going in parallel from Lisbon to Porto, sometimes coming as close as 500 m apart (see: http://goo.gl/maps/7oKWS ) and none of them being full of cars (as Google Street View or satellite pictures show) tells that something is wrong with Portugal regarding its network of highways. They built too much.

Ah Yes Portugal. You are absolutely correct except that you forgot they are well into a third Lisbon Porto motorway (the A13 ) on top of those pair.

CIA Factbook data is inconsistent. Micih, of this very forum, should be in charge of the Motorway/Expressway section of the CIA Factbook nowadays and not some dopey minimum wage clerk in Washington.

Some countries build expressways that are as high a quality as motorways in other countries, EG a Polish Expressway today is just as good as an Irish Motorway and with the same speed limit.

Both beat the hell out of an Italian coast hugging 'motorway' from the 1970s in terms of quality and safety.
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Old January 26th, 2015, 05:20 AM   #24
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Some countries build expressways that are as high a quality as motorways in other countries, EG a Polish Expressway today is just as good as an Irish Motorway and with the same speed limit.
It appears that the 2549 km figure (a bit outdated in the table) for Poland also includes expressways (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highways_in_Poland ). Anyway, Poland is making its way to the top of the table because its network is not completed yet.
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Old January 26th, 2015, 08:43 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Luki_SL View Post
BTW Poland has over 3 000 km highways (motorways+expressways) now
If instead of 2549 km Poland has 3000 km then it advances only 3 places in the table, going from 8641 to 7342 cars/km (supposing other countries have not advanced at all in the meantime).
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Old January 26th, 2015, 11:10 AM   #26
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Another "List of countries by length of expressways":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...of_expressways

Some figures are outdated, others dubious as in the case of Russia but for most countries the differences are not so great as compared to the table I posted.
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Old January 26th, 2015, 12:02 PM   #27
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Different countries have different geographies, population distributions, economic activities and this has an impact on the km of highways per vehicles.
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Old January 26th, 2015, 05:41 PM   #28
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By considering that Germany has exactly the right amount of highways for the number of vehicles registered in the country and supposing that other European states like Poland, for instance, considers Germany a model to follow, calculations made based on the data in the table I posted lead to quite realistic figures.

=============== =========== ========== =========== ========= ======== ======== ========
Country-------- --Highways- ---Cars--- Population- -Surface- Density1 Density2 Density3
--------------- ---(km)---- --(units)- --(people)- --(km2)-- (m/km^2) cars/km2 -cars/km
=============== =========== ========== =========== ========= ======== ======== ========
Croatia-------- -------1280 ---1969587 ----4435056 ----56542 ---22.64 ---34.83 ----1539
Hungary-------- -------1361 ---3608834 ---10013628 ----93030 ---14.63 ---38.79 ----2652
Portugal------- -------2647 ---8730885 ---10636888 ----92391 ---28.65 ----94.5 ----3298
**Germany**---- ------12845 --50184000 ---81757600 ---357021 ---35.98 --140.56 ----3907
Czech Republic- -------1050 ---7262647 ---10512397 ----78866 ---13.31 ---92.09 ----6917
Romania-------- --------647 ---5027936 ---21466174 ---237500 ----2.72 ---21.17 ----7771
Poland--------- -------2549 --22024697 ---38167329 ---312685 ----8.15 ---70.44 ----8641


The condition Dens3(Germany) = Dens3(Croatia, Hungary, Portugal, Czech Republic, Romania, Poland) imply that Croatia, Hungary and Portugal should have stopped at 504, 923 and 2234 km, respectively while the Czech Republic, Romania and Poland can still build highways up to 1858, 1287 and 5637 km, respectively which seems quite a realistic figure. For example, in 2006 the planned length for the expressways and highways in the Czech Republic (see: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=381080 ) was 2157 km, not far from the predicted 1858 km.

=============== ===========
Country-------- --Highways-
--------------- ---(km)----
=============== ===========
Croatia-------- --------504
Hungary-------- --------923
Portugal------- -------2234
**Germany**---- ------12845
Czech Republic- -------1858
Romania-------- -------1287
Poland--------- -------5637


(Remark: Regarding Germany, those 12845 km also include expressways, same is the case for Poland, Czech Republic and all countries.)

If you do not like Germany (it may happen) then we can take as a reference for Dens3 (cars/km) the average for a few representative countries in Western Europe:

Spain-- 1917 cars/km highway
France- 3009
Germany 3907
UK----- 5846
Italy-- 7895
======= ====
Average 4515 cars/km highway


In consequence, the new condition will be Dens3(Average) = Dens3(Croatia, Hungary, Portugal, Czech Republic, Romania, Poland) and the results can be consulted in the following table:

=============== ===========
Country-------- --Highways-
--------------- ---(km)----
=============== ===========
Croatia-------- --------436
Hungary-------- --------798
Portugal------- -------1933
Germany-------- ------11115
Czech Republic- -------1607
Romania-------- -------1114
Poland--------- -------4877


As you can see the estimates based on the average are less than the ones that take only Germany as a reference but the errors are just ~ 13%, quite small.
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Last edited by usbhub; January 28th, 2015 at 10:08 AM.
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Old January 27th, 2015, 11:53 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
The nationmaster data has no consistency. For one country they only count roads with official motorway status, in another they count all expressways
I have verified, the data in the table is about the motorways + expressways total length for each country. If a state does not have expressways then the figure refers only to motorways, if it has expressways, they are included.
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Old January 29th, 2015, 01:52 AM   #30
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Surface of a country: you've just taken some statistics, but did you know the surface of the Netherlands is 41.528 km2 including all lakes, like the IJsselmeer ? Landmass of NL is only about 34.000 km2.
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Old January 29th, 2015, 02:02 AM   #31
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Another reason to build motorways: traffic safety. At-grade trunkroads are deadly dangerous with intensities that are even low for a motorway - but the society will certainly gain from a motorway in terms of lifes saved - which can also be converted in terms of money.

So if Croatia or Hungary would only have had 500 or 900 km of motorway, they would have had a very much higher death toll with all those transit lorries...
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Old January 29th, 2015, 02:47 AM   #32
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That's one thing... foreign traffic loads... a country like Germany has a lot of transit traffic, that just doesn't exist in a country like Portugal...
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Old January 29th, 2015, 10:22 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aswnl View Post
Surface of a country: you've just taken some statistics, but did you know the surface of the Netherlands is 41.528 km2 including all lakes, like the IJsselmeer ? Landmass of NL is only about 34.000 km2.
There are bridges across lakes in Netherlands so I do not really understand the reason for considering its surfaces being only 34.000 km2.

see: http://goo.gl/maps/CFE1s

Secondly, even if we take Netherlands as being just 34.000 km2, its position in the table and the car density / km highway (4107 cars/km) remain the same.

A smaller or larger surface for a certain country will change both Density1(m/km2) and Density2(cars/km2). Density3(cars/km) = Density2/Density1 will remain constant. As you see Density3 is independent of the surface!

Quote:
Another reason to build motorways: traffic safety. At-grade trunkroads are deadly dangerous with intensities that are even low for a motorway - but the society will certainly gain from a motorway in terms of lifes saved - which can also be converted in terms of money.

So if Croatia or Hungary would only have had 500 or 900 km of motorway, they would have had a very much higher death toll with all those transit lorries...
1) Satellite pictures show the motorways of Netherlands full of cars and trucks which means its highways are justified (see Google Maps). Netherlands is somewhere in the middle of the table where the best places are. It belongs to a group of countries having neither too much nor too less highways for its needs.

2) Same satellite pictures for Croatia and Hungary show empty motorways. Croatia is much less a transit country than Hungary which is preferred by truck drivers, being a flat plain. Honestly, the only highway in Hungary that is worth the money is Szeget - Budapest - Vienna which is of international interest.

3) Regarding accidents, the table "List of countries by traffic-related death rate"
see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ted_death_rate
does not correlate well with the density of highways / km2 and density of cars/ km2. I have to study it more carefully.

Last edited by usbhub; January 29th, 2015 at 12:22 PM.
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Old January 29th, 2015, 12:40 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanadzie View Post
That's one thing... foreign traffic loads... a country like Germany has a lot of transit traffic, that just doesn't exist in a country like Portugal...
Honestly, most of the vehicles that can be seen on German highways have German license plates.

Even supposing that beside the 50 184 000 vehicles registered in Germany (see the table) there are another 2 millions with foreign plates, the error in my calculations will be only 4%.
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Old January 29th, 2015, 01:29 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usbhub View Post
Honestly, most of the vehicles that can be seen on German highways have German license plates.

Even supposing that beside the 50 184 000 vehicles registered in Germany (see the table) there are another 2 millions with foreign plates, the error in my calculations will be only 4%.
It's only because of its size that it doesn't matter. I think the numbers for smaller countries like Austria and especially Luxemburg should be corrected for that.

Last edited by verfmeer; January 29th, 2015 at 01:51 PM.
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Old January 29th, 2015, 06:20 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by verfmeer View Post
It's only because of its size that it doesn't matter. I think the numbers for smaller countries like Austria and especially Luxemburg should be corrected for that.
Luxembourg has 444 353 registered vehicles. If on average, day by day, there are another 100 000 vehicle with foreign plates that somehow pay maintenance taxes for motorways, inside the borders of this small state, then Luxembourg will move from 3023 to 3703 cars/km highway which pushes it six places down in the table. The question is, can we make such an assumption?
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Old January 29th, 2015, 10:09 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usbhub View Post
Luxembourg has 444 353 registered vehicles. If on average, day by day, there are another 100 000 vehicle with foreign plates that somehow pay maintenance taxes for motorways, inside the borders of this small state, then Luxembourg will move from 3023 to 3703 cars/km highway which pushes it six places down in the table. The question is, can we make such an assumption?

I think that 200 000 is a better number, since there are already 165 000 Belgians, Germans and Frenchman who work in Luxembourg (source: http://www.statistiques.public.lu/st...me=3&RFPath=92).

Adding transit traffic, I don't think it is unreal to say that the total traffic is 50% more than one could expect based on the number of residential cars. If we use that assumption, Luxemburg will move down 15 places, passing most European countries and landing near Lithuania, a country without a developed motorway network.
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Old January 29th, 2015, 11:07 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by usbhub View Post
There are bridges across lakes in Netherlands so I do not really understand the reason for considering its surfaces being only 34.000 km2.
People don't live on water, and you cant say there's a road network on that waters - the dikes and bridges across those big lakes and estuaria aren't the most busiest in the country...

Quote:
Originally Posted by usbhub View Post
Secondly, even if we take Netherlands as being just 34.000 km2, its position in the table and the car density / km highway (4107 cars/km) remain the same.
The ranking in your list doesn't bother me at all. The fact that you draw simplistic conclusions based on those very basic statistics does.

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Originally Posted by usbhub View Post
Satellite pictures show the motorways of Netherlands full of cars and trucks which means its highways are justified (see Google Maps).
. Bogus. Take a picture made on a sunday and you will state as easily that those wide motorways are way too empty...

Quote:
Originally Posted by usbhub View Post
Netherlands belongs to a group of countries having neither too much nor too less highways for its needs.
If the country would have more motorways or acces controlled expresways, a lot of local en regional roads could have been relieved and car emissions would be lower. How on earth can you just state that there would be no more need ? You only watch very little silly statistics. There's much more that defines whether there's need for a motorway: traffic safety, economic growth, relieve of traffic congestion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by usbhub View Post
Same satellite pictures for Croatia and Hungary show empty motorways. Croatia is much less a transit country than Hungary which is preferred by truck drivers, being a flat plain. Honestly, the only highway in Hungary that is worth the money is Szeget - Budapest - Vienna which is of international interest.
Have you ever driven in those countries ? I have driven in Hungary - the motorways are way from empty, I can tell you. And where a motorway has been constructed, the old trunk roads are relieved, and that has advantages for society far beyond just some narrow minded spatial statistics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by usbhub View Post
The more you use wikipedia, the less credible you are to me.
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Old January 29th, 2015, 11:28 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by aswnl View Post
The more you use wikipedia, the less credible you are to me.
Same data about road traffic accidents in various countries can be found here:
http://www.who.int/iris/bitstream/10...564564_eng.pdf
(see pages around 244).
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Old January 29th, 2015, 11:45 PM   #40
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People don't live on water
actually people live on houseboats which are on the water. so people do live on water
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