daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Subways and Urban Transport

Subways and Urban Transport Metros, subways, light rail, trams, buses and other local transport systems



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old July 8th, 2017, 03:17 PM   #181
Kpc21
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Łódź
Posts: 18,377
Likes (Received): 6779

Knowing the Hungarian mentality, I suppose, it's better with the maintenance in Hungary.

Our politicians like to build and create new things, but once they open it - they don't care at all about the maintenance.

I have noticed that there is more "general care" about what has been built in Hungary. You like to standardize things (like the same bell sound before the train announcements on each railway station). A little bit like Germans, in the positive way.

For example, this Bogestra tram, I mentioned a few posts ago, is in a much better condition than our Pesa and Cityrunner units, although it is much older. Or Szczecin bought second-hand Tatra KT4 trams from Berlin - which theoretically should not be much different from our Konstals 105/805Na, but Berlin, even while in the DDR, took much more care about them than we about Konstal trams.

The Hungarian technology is still sometimes used in Łódź, although here, if I am not wrong, they will use a different one.

Last edited by Kpc21; July 8th, 2017 at 03:26 PM.
Kpc21 no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old July 10th, 2017, 12:01 AM   #182
Kpc21
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Łódź
Posts: 18,377
Likes (Received): 6779

Mr Tomasz and his trams (about vintage trams in Łódź)

__________________

dimlys1994, mdhookey, rakcancer liked this post
Kpc21 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 28th, 2017, 06:17 PM   #183
Kpc21
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Łódź
Posts: 18,377
Likes (Received): 6779

Let's refresh the thread a little bit...

Gdańskastraße.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kukuss View Post
28.07.2017

ul. Gdańska


__________________

dimlys1994, MiaM, DanielFA liked this post
Kpc21 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 5th, 2017, 12:27 AM   #184
Kpc21
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Łódź
Posts: 18,377
Likes (Received): 6779

Again the same construction:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Om101 View Post
Dzisiejsza wieczorna fotorelacja z remontu torowiska na Kopernika i Gdańskiej.

Kopernika - czyżby ograniczyli się tylko do wymiany torowiska i położenia nowego dywaniku asfaltowego. A co z resztą?



Gdańska/Struga - czyli początek... lub koniec remontowanego w tej chwili odcinka:





Zmodernizowana płyta węgierska z wypełnieniem korytka szynowego żywicą epoksydową, a nie paskami wulkanizowanej gumy:



Frez pod opaskę krawężnikową z granitu:



Wypełnienie szczelin między płytami żwirkiem???



Jednak nie - też idzie żywica





Szersza perspektywa na nowe torowisko:





Instalacja odwadniająca czy tzw uszynienie, inaczej uziemienie szyny. Szyna jest elementem obwodu elektrycznego - przypomnę, że przewód jezdny, zasilany z podstacji trakcyjnej (prostownikowej), w Łodzi ma potencjał ujemny, a szyna dodatni - obwód, w dużym uproszczeniu, zamyka się przez silnik i koła tramwaju, szynę i wspomniane uszynienie do podstacji prostownikowej...





Zamontowana opaska granitowa:



I elementy granitowe opaski:



Odwodnienie?



Studzienka między szynami:



I koniec... albo początek remontowanego odcinka czyli Gdańska/Zielona:



Fin
__________________

dimlys1994, Urbanista1, DanielFA liked this post
Kpc21 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 15th, 2017, 12:21 PM   #185
Kpc21
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Łódź
Posts: 18,377
Likes (Received): 6779

Meanwhile in Łódź...





(photos by Łukasz "luki" Stefańczyk)

The renovation of tracks through the Solidarity Roundabout has started. Because of that, the line 17, already rerouted due to works in Gdańska str. (see the previous photos), had to be divided at this intersection.

Between Koziny (originally Chocianowice Ikea for the line 17 and Kurczaki for the line 15) and Rondo Solidarności (Solidarity Roundabout) goes the line 17, between Rondo Solidarności and Stoki goes the line Z17.
__________________

dimlys1994, DanielFA liked this post
Kpc21 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 7th, 2017, 12:22 PM   #186
Kpc21
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Łódź
Posts: 18,377
Likes (Received): 6779

A few days ago, the EU money for an upgrade of the tracks got admitted to Pabianice! Pabianice won the money competing with Łódź, which wanted to spend it for an extension of the tracks in Strykowska street to the Łódź Marysin train station - which is also needed - but including passing those tracks under Inflancka street to the other side of it, which is really unnecessary.

This means, the first of the suburban tram routes of Łódź, after 13 years of trials, finally will be renovated.

Furthermore, the catenary is currently being exchanged, so that the trams on this line, after the closure in May, will probably be restored in October (still on the old tracks).

The other suburban routes, unfortunately, remain endangered. Zgierz is trying to obtain money for renovation of the tracks from the border with Łódź to Kilińskiego square. But the problem is with the route to Ozorków (one of the longest tram routes in Europe!). While Ozorków is keen on doing something with it, the problem is the section between Zgierz and Ozorków. It belongs to the municipality of Zgierz (not to mistake with the town of Zgierz, which is a separate municipality; the municipality of Zgierz contains villages only), which is quite poor and even if they managed to get the EU money, they have no money for their own contribution.

The route to Konstantynów is still in operation - mainly thanks to that Konstantynów was slowly renovating the tracks in the town on short sections (so that they could afford it) throughout the years. Konstantynów borders directly with Łódź and the tracks in Łódź are in rather bad state, but this belongs to Łódź, so the MPK won't say "we won't go to your town any more because your tracks are in bad condition", those are MPK's tracks Meanwhile, the route to Lutomiersk remains closed from February, but the repairs of the tracks washed-out in February have just been finished, so there is a chance that the trams will be shortly restored. Even though the MPK objects that the tracks on other sections are in too bad condition. And they got in a way damaged by lack of traffic (and lack of maintenance) for over half a year.
__________________

DanielFA liked this post
Kpc21 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 7th, 2017, 02:24 PM   #187
Rombi
Registered User
 
Rombi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Gdynia
Posts: 924
Likes (Received): 305

F**cked up situation. Seems like Łódź is the side which is least interested in renovating tracks.
Some governmental moneys should be implemented to help the situations because of importnace of the tracks for local population and touristic attraction itself.
__________________
Bo właśnie w podróży, rano, w obcym mieście, zanim druga kawa zacznie działać, doświadcza się najmocniej dziwności własnego, pozornie banalnego bytu. Podróż jest po prostu stosunkowo zdrowym rodzajem narkotyku.
Andrzej Stasiuk
Rombi no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 7th, 2017, 03:43 PM   #188
Kpc21
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Łódź
Posts: 18,377
Likes (Received): 6779

The voivodeship should take care of it, as those trams connect multiple municipalities and multiple powiats. And it would be complementary to the metropolitan railway (ŁKA).

But they say the law doesn't allow them for that (which is kind of true, that means, it makes it, at least, more difficult). The thing is, they have their metropolitan railway and they don't want it to have competition. Or, at least, we suppose so. Actually, it's not impossible, for example, the Mazovian voivodeship did subsidize the WKD railway and they managed to do it in a legal way.

Concerning the government, the metropolitan areas law, prepared by the previous government, would be very helpful here - a metropolitan area would be treated as something close to an administrative unit (like powiat) and thus it could organize the public transport for the whole area together instead of doing it by each municipality separately. There would be a single budget for such things. But the current government, as a metropolitan area in the meaning of this law, qualified the Upper Silesian metropolitan area only...

Even now, the law allows creating public transport unions (but only between municipalities and powiats, voivodeships cannot take part in them), like you, in Tri-city, have the MZKZG. Or the KZK GOP in Upper Silesia. But the municipalities in the Łódź area do not really look like they wanted to create such a union.
__________________

DanielFA liked this post

Last edited by Kpc21; September 7th, 2017 at 03:50 PM.
Kpc21 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 7th, 2017, 04:24 PM   #189
Rombi
Registered User
 
Rombi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Gdynia
Posts: 924
Likes (Received): 305

Got it. Strange because everybody would benefit if they only cooperate. It's easier when put your efforts together with your neighbouring powiats than separately...
__________________
Bo właśnie w podróży, rano, w obcym mieście, zanim druga kawa zacznie działać, doświadcza się najmocniej dziwności własnego, pozornie banalnego bytu. Podróż jest po prostu stosunkowo zdrowym rodzajem narkotyku.
Andrzej Stasiuk
Rombi no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 7th, 2017, 07:01 PM   #190
Kpc21
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Łódź
Posts: 18,377
Likes (Received): 6779

Yes. But the neighboring municipalities (I am not talking about powiats, they don't care at all, but from what I know, their financial possibilities are also worst) are not without fault too. For example, Zgierz can't even think about fare integration with Łódź. For years it was so, that while crossing the border between Zgierz and Łódź (connected with two tram and two bus lines), you had to validate a new ticket of the town you enter. In 2012, after some changes, it became different, and now in the trams in Zgierz, the tickets of Łódź (and only of Łódź, not of Zgierz) are valid, while in the buses, the old situation is preserved. You enter Zgierz - you must validate the ticket of Zgierz, you enter Łódź - you must validate the ticket of Łódź.

This year, in May, they finally managed to work out and introduce an integrated ticket (in case of Pabianice it happened already a few years ago), but it's still a special kind of ticket, only for those lines connecting Zgierz with Łódź.

----

A short guide for those not familiar with the administrative division of Poland:

The country is divided into voivodeships (województwo; there is 16 of them). Each voivodeship is divided into powiats (powiat is a Polish word, I don't know a good English equivalent, some people say county, but I don't think they are comparable with counties in English-speaking countries). A big city, like Łódź, is usually a separate powiat (and, therefore, a single municipality - exception: Warsaw, the districts of which are treated similarly to municipalities), but normally a powiat is divided into municipalities (gmina). A smaller town may also be a separate municipality (then the villages around create a separate municipality, often named the same as the town, even though it doesn't belong to it) or be in a municipality together with the villages around. They are then called, respectively, gmina miejska (town municipality), gmina miejsko-wiejska (town-village municipality) or gmina wiejska (village municipality). A city being a separate powiat is called "miasto na prawach powiatu" - "city with powiat rights" or, informally, "powiat grodzki" - "city powiat".

Each voivodeship, powiat and municipality has its own council, chosen in elections, and its own budget.
__________________

dimlys1994, DanielFA liked this post

Last edited by Kpc21; September 7th, 2017 at 07:10 PM.
Kpc21 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 15th, 2017, 02:10 AM   #191
Kpc21
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Łódź
Posts: 18,377
Likes (Received): 6779

Preparation to restoring the tram traffic to Lutomiersk - test ride:
Quote:
Originally Posted by mateeusz View Post
Zdjęcia z jazdy próbnej do Lutomierska:









Źródło: https://www.facebook.com/publictrans...265051/?type=3
Quote:
Originally Posted by kukuss View Post
MPK Łódź Sp. z o.o. dokonuje szczegółowego przeglądu stanu technicznego torów tramwajowych w celu uruchomienia linii tramwajowej 43.
https://www.facebook.com/gminalutomiersk2016/







It is still not certain if the traffic will actually be restored. The MPK still has objections concerning the condition of tracks in Konstantynów Łódzki (in the direction of Lutomiersk).

A little refurbish of the tracks on the Liberty Square (it awaits a total reconstruction in the next years, the tracks will be moved to the northern side of the square, or rather octagon, only):

Quote:
Originally Posted by kukuss View Post
Plac Wolności


The progress of works on the Solidarity Roundabout:

Quote:
Originally Posted by rafalk View Post
Rondo Solidarności 2017.09.11




And more photos from 2 days earlier:

Quote:
Originally Posted by gargul View Post
Raport z Ronda Solidarnosci, w zblizeniu.

1.


2.


3.


4.


5. Frezowanie zaczyna sie tuz przed Pomorska, pewnie zeby nie ruszac pentli indukcyjnych.


6. Niestety te pare metrow, ktore mozna by teraz przy okazji zrobic, wyglada tragicznie


7. Jakby tak chciec zidentyfikowac ile tu jest oryginalnego asfaltu, a ile łat...


8.


9.


10.


11.


12.


13. Solidna podbudowa


14.


15.


16.


17.


Fotorelacja wstawiona automatycznie.
As it can be seen, the progress of the works is quite fast.
__________________

Urbanista1, dimlys1994, Nowax, DanielFA, MiaM and 1 others liked this post
Kpc21 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 11th, 2017, 08:58 PM   #192
chauffeur
Karyna Królów
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: U stóp Kawich "Gór"
Posts: 1,740
Likes (Received): 10265

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kpc21 View Post
Mr Tomasz and his trams (about vintage trams in Łódź)
Łodź Brus museum depot:
__________________
To czasy zbrodniarzy, głupców i handlarzy, coraz więcej pustych twarzy, coraz ciaśniej jest na plaży

Kpc21, dimlys1994, MiaM, DanielFA liked this post
chauffeur está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old October 11th, 2017, 09:00 PM   #193
Kpc21
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Łódź
Posts: 18,377
Likes (Received): 6779

I just wanted to post this video

I will add that finally, the tram traffic is again present on the route to Lutomiersk. Meanwhile, the line to Pabianice is still undergoing a catenary exchange.
__________________

MiaM liked this post
Kpc21 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 12th, 2017, 02:04 PM   #194
Kpc21
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Łódź
Posts: 18,377
Likes (Received): 6779

Trams back in the village of Lutomiersk.

From the Facebook page Freelance Filmmaker - P19.











__________________

DanielFA, Nowax, MiaM, dimlys1994, uunxx liked this post
Kpc21 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 29th, 2017, 02:26 PM   #195
Kpc21
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Łódź
Posts: 18,377
Likes (Received): 6779

Tracks in Gdańska street - opened, Solidarity Roundabout - opened, trams in Lutomiersk back, on Wednesday the trams return to Pabianice after the catenary exchange. Not for long though, because shortly, the total renovation of this route will start.

The city of Pabianice got EU money from the Regional Operational Program of Łódź Voivodeship for this upgrade.

Meanwhile, today there is the last day of the trams going to the town of Ozorków - north from Łódź. On Friday, the MPK decided that they cannot safely service this route because of bad condition of the traction substation in the village of Emilia, between Zgierz and Ozorków. The roof of the substation is leaking, the water is getting inside, and there is a danger of a short circuit and explosion.

The trams of the line 46 will end at the Helenówek stop. The replacement buses will ride from the Świtezianki loop through Zgierz to Ozorków. Paradoxically, the passengers might be happy of this situation, because whilex it takes from 65 to 70 minutes for a tram to ride from Helenówek to Ozorków, for a bus 30 minutes is enough.

The substation is the building in the background, made of brick:




(photo by lukas.j from gtlodz dot eu)

StreetView: https://goo.gl/maps/imZ6Z6NLDmC2
__________________

DanielFA, MiaM liked this post

Last edited by Kpc21; October 29th, 2017 at 02:32 PM.
Kpc21 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 30th, 2017, 12:19 AM   #196
metacatfry
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 104
Likes (Received): 22

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kpc21 View Post
Paradoxically, the passengers might be happy of this situation, because whilex it takes from 65 to 70 minutes for a tram to ride from Helenówek to Ozorków, for a bus 30 minutes is enough.
One wonders why the line has survived for so long into the age of modern busses. I looked at a map; It is freaking 30 km from Ozorkow to Lodz centrum. And this is an old school slow tram line with stops every kilometer, right through the countryside most of the way.
It is difficult to feel bad when it seems like this line was not very fit for purpose compared to the alternatives. Surely substituting it with busses must be better in all aspects?
Trams have their purpose, but generally in dense builtup areas, preferably with right of way most of the time, and with frequent high-capacity service. the old school way is not competitive with busses, trains or cars, and certainly not on trips over 10 km in length. I'm sorry if I'm stepping on some toes here.
__________________

Falubaz, DanielFA liked this post
metacatfry no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 30th, 2017, 04:16 AM   #197
Kpc21
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Łódź
Posts: 18,377
Likes (Received): 6779

The service was quite frequent. Every 20 minutes, recently changed to 24 minutes.

The trams on the section to Zgierz were usually full, I don't know what about the further section to Ozorków.

The alternative are minibuses of private companies, which are not so frequent on this route, are uncomfortable and often overcrowded. And they don't use the direct route between Ozorków and Zgierz, but they take the side roads through villages.

The tram is the only public means of transport servicing the Proboszczewice district of Zgierz and the villages between Zgierz and Ozorków along the DK91 - because the national roads authority doesn't allow creating bus stops there. However, in case the tram gets ultimately suspended, they would probably allow it because bus bays (turnouts) could be built in the place of the current tracks.

Another advantage of the tram was the fare system integrated with the fare system of the city of Łódź (you can buy a single ticket), for this reason also many people were choosing the tram instead of the minibuses, for which you must pay twice more buying a separate monthly ticket.

But this argument (also the one about uncomfortable minibuses and the one about the schedule) has no meaning in case of the trams replaced with city buses, still remaining a municipal service and not private competition.

Anyway, the line to Ozorków (population 20,000) is not so weird as the line to Lutomiersk (population 1,500).

It's worth mentioning that the line 46 to Lutomiersk is (or, just now, was) the longest tram line in Poland and one of a few the longest ones in Europe.
__________________

MiaM, DanielFA liked this post
Kpc21 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 30th, 2017, 12:09 PM   #198
metacatfry
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 104
Likes (Received): 22

That's interesting, that the line is well used, and that many people choose it over minibusses.
However, I have to assume that the income from the line is not sufficient to pay for its upkeep, otherwise why starve it of maintenance like it has been?
This must be in contrast to the private operators, who wouldn't operate otherwise.
I'm not making an argument about subsididising public transport, thats not my point. I think there are areas and situations where different modes of transport have their strengths and weaknesses, and my guess is that this sort of line is not a strength for trams.

I'm no expert but this is a simplistic comparison between them and busses.

Quote:
For busses:

disadvantages:

- Heavy wear on ordinary roads
- Capacity limits, unless dedicated bus lanes.

advantages:

- flexible, more independent of fixed infrastructure.
- Comparatively cheap on low capacity routes.
- easy to scale supply over a wide range.

For trams:

Disadvantages:

- Infrastructure dependent. Changing route expensive and difficult.
- fixed infrastructure cost is comparatively high.

Advantages:

- High capacity at low cost.
- high capacity lines do not cause as much wear and tear on infrastructure as comparable bus lines.
These are very general observations, and specific circumstances can change things like the relative costs.

For busses, once your demand grows to such a level that you need dedicated bus lanes, that's when the cost of running busses start to become uncompetitive.
there's a model for assessing the level of wear a road will see by the passage of a vehicle according to the axle load. N, called wear, as a function of v, the axle load, measured in tonnes, is equal to:
Code:
N(v) = v^3,86
what this means is, an SUV with about ˝ a tonne axle load causes wear equal to ˝^3,86 = 0,07.
A bus with a rear axle load of 10 tonnes causes wear equal to 10^3,86 = 7244
or equal to a hundred thousand SUVs.
this is in my view the biggest advantage to trams, in that rails are very wear resistant and can handle high frequency much better than roads/busses cope.

So in conclusion, high frequency tram wins.
__________________

DanielFA, MiaM liked this post

Last edited by metacatfry; November 3rd, 2017 at 01:02 PM.
metacatfry no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 30th, 2017, 02:48 PM   #199
JohnDeMan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 2
Likes (Received): 0

Got to love the trams! I prefer to travel by them than the buses.
JohnDeMan no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 31st, 2017, 12:34 AM   #200
Kpc21
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Łódź
Posts: 18,377
Likes (Received): 6779

In city and, in general, commuter public transport it's usually so that the income from the line is not sufficient to pay it.

The suburban and extra-urban bus transport in Poland in most places works currently in the fully free market model. What is subsidized is the whole city public transport, the trains, and in quite rare cases, suburban lines. There are exceptions from that, but they just confirm the rule.

From the time of the fall of communism a fall of the extra-urban bus transport has been observed in Poland. It is often connected with bankruptcies of the former communist (mostly privatized) extra-urban public transport operators, called PKS. Many local lines connecting villages turned out to be not affordable (and the state money got cut off), but regardless of that, under the pressure of the neighborhood and because of bad management, the companies were still servicing them. Meanwhile, the more affordable connections started to be serviced by small startup companies (or individuals who just bought minibuses and started to carry people - initially, after 1989, this kind of activity wasn't regulated by law) with minibuses, and since they were frequent and fast (since breaking all the road traffic rules), people chose them instead of the old buses. Earlier, even in the communist period, with the more profitable routes they were earning for those non-profitable ones, but this fell down once the competition appeared. Another big factor, which became strong especially after 2000, is the popularization of private cars.

Now, it depends on the region, but e.g. in the area around Kraków and especially south from this city, there is really many minibus connections made by private operators, there are also those few places where the PKS connections still exist and are still subsidized (usually in the places where the local PKS got taken over by the local authorities), but there is also many areas where there is practically no public transport at all.

So while e.g. in Germany, you can get by public bus (if not by train) to each village, in Poland it's no longer so.

Another problem is that those minibuses often do not publish timetables, overload the buses (if you live in western Europe, you probably haven't seen over 10 persons standing in a Mercedes Sprinter minibus*; in Poland it's normal), don't take care of their technical condition. Once, on the route I ride on, a road transport inspection authority brought a mobile technical inspection station and started to check all the buses on the route on site. And... once the control started, the buses quickly... just stopped the service till the end of the day. After a few of them lost their registration certificates or even had to be crapped because they were illegal modifications of the Mercedes Sprinter construction.

* - I don't mean the official city version of Sprinter offered by Mercedes, which has some modifications so that can stand such a load, rather minibuses made by local companies based on Mercedes Sprinter vans.

Regardless of all of that, the route to Ozorków was quite exceptional. For long, the local private bus carriers serviced the route with full-size buses and even employed conductors - which in most of the area of Poland wasn't seen at all since the mid-90s. Even though they had to coexist with the tram. But the last conductor stopped to be employed last year or somehow in the beginning of this year, and there is no more full-size buses on this route (of course, not counting the bustitution for the tram).

By the way... is there anywhere a list of the longest tram routes in Europe? I know about the Kusttram in Belgium, I know also the S2 route in Karlsruhe (as I was using it for some time), whose length is comparable with the 46 in Łódź. I think I have also heard about something like a tram to the beach somewhere in Crimea or in Ukraine, but I am not sure about that. What else is in between? And what else is in the world? I don't count tram-trains, because they are obvious winners.
__________________

DanielFA, MiaM, metacatfry liked this post
Kpc21 no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 02:07 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium