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Old July 11th, 2016, 11:33 AM   #81
Kpc21
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Ok, thanks for adding the proper spelling to the title

About the internationally-recognized pronounciation, I haven't met a foreigner yet, who would know, how to pronounce this name correctly. Most of them really think it's pronounced "Lotz". Or, in the best case, using Polish spelling, "Loć".
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Old July 11th, 2016, 03:34 PM   #82
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I pronounce it as always WOODGE according to how native Polish people I have asked say it and my GCSE Polish background

If any native Polish speakers wish to correct me please do
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Old July 11th, 2016, 05:47 PM   #83
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Yes, you are doing it right. But some native Poles told it to you, so you don't count

Actually English doesn't distinguish between Polish "dż" and "dź", both of which are pronounced more or less like "dge" or "j" in English. Go to Google Translate, type Łódź in (or just copy it from here, typing Polish-specific letters might be difficult without a Polish keyboard layout set up), and press the listen button. Then type Łódż in and press the listen button. You will hear the difference. For "dź" you must keep your tongue more to the back, for "dż" closer to your teeth.

And actually it's more like Wooch rather than Woodge (although Woodge is the pronounciation equivalent to the Polish spelling), because this cosonant is at the end of the word and in such a case it "automatically" shifts to its "weaker" equivalent, since its difficult to pronounce it in the "proper" way. Most of the Poles don't even notice that, but it is so. Łódź and łóć (there is no such a word, but if it existed) are not different in pronounciation. The difference is only in the declination forms, for example "in Łódź" is "w Łodzi" - "v Wodgi" (dź is no more at the end of the word, so it's pronounced in the normal way), but if there existed a city Łóć, "in Łóć" would be "w Łoci" - "v Wochi".

Pronouncing it really as "Woodge" and not "Wooch" is hypercorrectness.
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Old July 12th, 2016, 12:51 AM   #84
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Wow, this is some hardcore proncounciation debate here.

Quote:
Well... The city decided to do it in the most stupid way possible. They are building tracks not knowing yet,
how the tram network will look like after opening this new small piece of the network.
That is a clever way indeed. What is the problem? Why can't they think of a new network before starting construction of new tracks? Are there some factors involved they can not foresee?
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Old July 12th, 2016, 03:16 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scizoid.Trans.Prog. View Post
Some moderator should change this thread title. In Polish language we use these specific letters which are for example "Ł", "Ó" and "Ź". To express some emotion or name things as they really mean something, you have to use these symbols, because there is no city called "Lodz". That is an example.
So moderator, please change the title of this thread to: "ŁÓDŹ | Public Transport".
Thank you.
On international websites it's just nonsense to use country-specific characters, as not all browsers on all operating systems and in all locales will be able display the special characters.

In the case of your "ŁÓDŹ", many readers will just see something like "??D?" or "[][]D[]" (rectangles that replace non-displayable characters), and the people will not figure out what is meant. So for an international English-language audience better stick to the English name, to "LODZ" or to a transcript in normal latin letters, if there is any.

Remember, this sub-forum is an English-language one.
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Old July 12th, 2016, 06:54 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by micro View Post
On international websites it's just nonsense to use country-specific characters, as not all browsers on all operating systems and in all locales will be able display the special characters.

In the case of your "ŁÓDŹ", many readers will just see something like "??D?" or "[][]D[]" (rectangles that replace non-displayable characters), and the people will not figure out what is meant. So for an international English-language audience better stick to the English name, to "LODZ" or to a transcript in normal latin letters, if there is any.

Remember, this sub-forum is an English-language one.
OK, I understood, so therefore thread title changed back to LODZ. I'm sorry Scizoid.Trans.Prog.
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Old July 12th, 2016, 08:38 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slartibartfas View Post
That is a clever way indeed. What is the problem? Why can't they think of a new network before starting construction of new tracks? Are there some factors involved they can not foresee?
From the beginning of 2001 the concept of the city tram network was vastly changed. The number of tram lines got reduced and the frequency of departures increased, so that there is fewer direct connections than before, but thanks to that, the time needed to go from the point A to the point B was actually reduced (because of shorter waiting for the tram). There was, however, no big changes in the bus network. And since then, the idea of similar changes in the bus network was coming back a few times, but it was never realised. One of the reason is that one of the concepts was to get rid of buses using the same streets as trams, as in the modern city public transport systems usually the trams are the backbone of the system and the buses play only complimentary role. But this couldn't be popular among the citizens in the situation when the buses are simply much more reliable and comfortable than trams. Also the concept of fewer tram lines with high departures frequencies broke down, as from year to year the city was just decreasing the frequency of the tram departures due to financial reasons.

A few years ago, due to new central regulations about the organisation of the public transport, the city had to prepare a plan, how the public transport is going to work within the next years. And the city came with an idea, that it's actually a good time to make bigger changes in the public transport network.

I still don't understand that, because it happened anyway after start of the construction of the station. Maybe the thing is that the start of the construction was actually a surprise, people didn't really believe that it will be possible. The plans of rebuilding the Łódź Fabryczna station and connecting it with the Łódź Kaliska station existed already for years, such plans were even before the World War 2 (but there have always been obstacles, if not technological, then financial or political). And now it finally happened to be possible. And, by the way, Poland is just not good in planning. We are not Germans. It often happens that there are some plans, and then a new people come to the government, and they say they see everything in a totally different way, they always want to make a revolution instead of reasonable changes, and the old plans are no longer up to date.

Anyway, the company who gave the cheapest offer to make this public transport network plan was from Cracow, and they didn't really have any idea how the public transport in Łódź works, they didn't do enough surveys as well, and the plan they proposed, which was quite a big revolution, wasn't received well neither by the citizens, nor by the city council. Actually, in a few days, a non-governmental organisation created much a better plan - just to show that the company from Cracow didn't do a good job (if they did any job). Another issue was that the plan of the Cracow company was just impossible to introduce with the current financial assumptions and with the current rolling stock of the city public transport operator. The problem is especially with trams, which are mostly old, and, because of that, not only not really comfortable, but also they are just so used up that most of them actually have to be taken out of service.

So the city decided to organise huge public consultations, based on online poll and workshop meetings in each small district of the city (there is 36 of them). They actually did so, collected the opinions and actual needs of the citizens, and now they slowly start to introduce them, in cooperation with the non-governmental organisation mentioned before. But now the concept is not to make it a revolution, but rather to focus on making small changes that will actually improve the public transport system in the city.

It's more about buses than about trams, but it shows, how complicated task it actually is to design a public transport network, or to make sensible changes in it. And the station had to be built, not to waste the opportunity, when the political situation allowed to start the construction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by micro View Post
On international websites it's just nonsense to use country-specific characters, as not all browsers on all operating systems and in all locales will be able display the special characters.

In the case of your "ŁÓDŹ", many readers will just see something like "??D?" or "[][]D[]" (rectangles that replace non-displayable characters), and the people will not figure out what is meant. So for an international English-language audience better stick to the English name, to "LODZ" or to a transcript in normal latin letters, if there is any.

Remember, this sub-forum is an English-language one.
We are in 2016 and nowadays it's no longer a problem. Unicode is in common use, also in SSC, and the modern operating systems deal with the language-specific characters without any problems. I would understand it maybe still 5 years ago - but not now.
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Old July 12th, 2016, 08:25 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kpc21 View Post
We are in 2016 and nowadays it's no longer a problem. Unicode is in common use, also in SSC, and the modern operating systems deal with the language-specific characters without any problems. I would understand it maybe still 5 years ago - but not now.
Even if that's true, most people are not up to date with their hardware, OS, or software. Many people surf with old browsers on old computers.
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Old July 13th, 2016, 03:02 AM   #89
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I can assure you that surfing with such an old browser which would have problems with displaying Polish characters is simply impossible in the current times. Even if you use old versions of Firefox (not to mention Internet Explorer), many modern websites are just displayed incorrectly, or sometimes they even crash the browser. And they could perfectly deal with displaying UTF-8 characters for language-specific letters.

For eastern-Asian languages it was a little bit different. In Windows XP you had to additionally install the support for them (or select a proper option during the OS installation). But not for Polish. If someone uses such an archaic browser that it's unable to display UTF-8-encoded letters, he is just a masochist, because it's virtually impossible to use the modern Internet with such a browser.
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Old July 13th, 2016, 04:37 PM   #90
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An actual problem with language-specific characters is that foreigners may have a hard time searching through text. If you don't know how to type in those characters it becomes hard to do a search. For example using latest Firefox searching for "LODZ" on this page only get matches for "LODZ" but not "ŁÓDŹ".
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Old July 13th, 2016, 07:14 PM   #91
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@kpc21

Thanks for that fairly detailed insight. Sounds like a bloody mess. But it sounds good to me that they are now rather in for gradual change with well measured changes instead of a terribly planned revolution.
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Old July 14th, 2016, 02:25 AM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kpc21 View Post
For eastern-Asian languages it was a little bit different. In Windows XP you had to additionally install the support for them (or select a proper option during the OS installation). But not for Polish. If someone uses such an archaic browser that it's unable to display UTF-8-encoded letters, he is just a masochist, because it's virtually impossible to use the modern Internet with such a browser.
Don't forget we have users here from all parts of the world, from modern regions as well as from developing countries where not everyone has high-end equipment available.

As well as you had to install Eastern-Asian languages support, people in East-Asian countries may have to install support for Western languages. Some people may have configured other encodings than UTF-8 for whatever reason. ŁÓDŹ is an especially delicate name as it has 75% special characters in it, which completely messes up when displayed incorrectly.

And so on. There may be dozens of reasons to keep it a bit safer and stick to the 26 Latin letters at least for thread titles. Just my opinion
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Old July 14th, 2016, 07:07 AM   #93
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The question is which is the correct name in english?

Many places have english names that differ much from the local names. For example Gothenburg (english) in Sweden is called Göteborg in Swedish. Other examples are Munic/München, Rome/Roma, Hague / den Haag, Antwerp / Antwerpen.

To make things even more complicated sometimes some foreign languages share the same non-local name (for example Szczecin is called Stettin not only in german but usually also in Swedish) but it's not consequent.
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Old July 14th, 2016, 07:39 AM   #94
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Quote:
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The question is which is the correct name in english?
May this answers your question?
http://en.uml.lodz.pl/
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Old July 15th, 2016, 06:00 AM   #95
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Quote:
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The question is which is the correct name in english?
There is no special, specific English name.

Germans used to call the city Litzmannstadt during the WW2, but it was a name invented by Germans (exactly - Nazis), having nothing in common with the original name. It came from a German general and it was introduced by Hitler. It was a nazi name and it's not used any more after the WW2, even in German.

The name is Łódź, the spelling without Polish characters is Lodz, and that's all.

On the English version of the city website you once see Lodz and once Łódź.

Quote:
Other examples are Munic/München, Rome/Roma, Hague / den Haag, Antwerp / Antwerpen.
Those cities have also other names in Polish: Monachium, Rzym, Haga, Antwerpia. As well as many other popular cities in the world, for example London is in Polish Londyn, or New York is in Polish Nowy Jork. Łódź is not such a worldwide known city.
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Old July 16th, 2016, 05:36 AM   #96
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Quote:
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The question is which is the correct name in english?
You really got to the point, it's the only question that matters. And since English doesn't have special characters they shouldn't be used.
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Old July 16th, 2016, 10:53 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by micro View Post
You really got to the point, it's the only question that matters. And since English doesn't have special characters they shouldn't be used.
Except that english does have a few special characters
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diaere...ritic)#English
naďve

But to the point, english doesn't have those specific characters that are used in the polish spelling of Lodz
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Old July 17th, 2016, 04:34 AM   #98
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And it says:
Quote:
The grave accent and the diaeresis are the only diacritics native to Modern English (apart from diacritics used in loanwords, such as the acute accent, the cedilla, or the tilde).
That's why there is nothing wrong in using those characters in English texts.

When I use German geographic names that don't have Polish equivalents, I usually take care of all the specific characters. But typing them might be difficult for others, and that's why I understand when someone omits them.

I spell it Łódź and I will continue doing so, you can spell it Lodz (as long as you remember how to pronounce it correctly ) and everything is fine.

See that for example Russians often write foreign names using Latin alphabet, without converting them to Cyrylic. On the other hand, when they do it (I mean, convert to Cyrylic), they do it phonetically, which makes it looking really funny. Like, for example, they write (in Cyrylic) Nyu-York.

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Old July 19th, 2016, 02:54 PM   #99
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Many thanks for all the pictures of the interesting tram system of Łódź, especially the remarkable Piotrkowska Centrum tram stop.

As a lover of both trams and Gothic architecture, I think that Piotrkowska Centrum is one of the most beautiful examples of modern architecture, especially that associated with transport.

There are some good "driver's cab view" videos of Łódź trams on YouTube, from "esbek2" and "Tramwajem Przez Galaktyke". Does anyone know of other such videos for Łódź?
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Old September 16th, 2016, 05:31 PM   #100
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From Rail Journal:

Quote:
http://www.railjournal.com/index.php...ml?channel=529

More Stadler EMUs for Lodz Agglomeration Railway
Friday, September 16, 2016



POLISH regional operator Lodz Agglomeration Railway (LKA) confirmed on September 16 that it has selected Stadler Poland for a contract to supply 14 three-car EMUs and maintain the trains for 12 years

LKA says Stadler submitted the most favourable bid in the tender, ahead of Polish suppliers Newag and Pesa.

The first batch of four Flirt 3 trains will be delivered by September 2018 and LKA will receive the remaining 10 sets by the end of 2019

...
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