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Old May 23rd, 2015, 07:13 PM   #41
Silly_Walks
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Originally Posted by DCUrbanist View Post
Except that it's not at all. This whole conversation started from some comments on the Atlanta | Transport thread about the Gold Line vs the Yellow Line and how a few of the communities the then-Yellow Line traveled through didn't want the line called Yellow and asked instead that it be Gold because of the racial connotations of "yellow."
Actually, the thread started with a completely ridiculous assumption about line colors being racist.
It wasn't till later that it became clear there was an actual real-life example of a color change happening because of racist thinking patterns by a small group of too-easily-offended professional complainers.

Quote:
I agree with the people here who say that colors, place names, letters, and numbers are for the most part, exceedingly neutral. However, it is any good graphic designer's job to know the context of their work; that's what they're paid to do.
It's not a graphic designer's job to think in racist/discriminatory patterns and think yellow=Asian, red=Native American, pink=gay, etc.

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Furthermore, in the spirit of truly participatory government, it should also be our job to take a step back and listen in the few times a community does say that something this comparatively small (compared to crippling entire transit systems) does not sit well with them and do what we can to make it better. That's just good government.
OK. Now there is a community that says they don't want a pink line because they think it is gay, and they won't ride a gay train. It's just a small change of something that doesn't sit well with them. Should we give in to this small group of easily offended people who think in such limiting ways? Is that good government?


I would rather have the government focus on building good transit for all people then have them be occupied by the baseless ramblings of the butt-hurt minority.



And when I say butt-hurt minority, that's meant as the opposite of the silent majority, not to refer to an ethnic minority.



The thing you want (lines built to poor/black neighborhoods), is actually being hampered by this nonsense about line colors. You need to realize that and focus on the real problem. Line colors are NOT it.
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Old May 24th, 2015, 12:07 AM   #42
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Whenever I read the phrase "politically correct", I become suspicious, as it's now become a catch-all to describe anything disliked by people of a generally "right-wing", sometimes "racist", persuasion. Thus, for example, the current obsession with "health and safety" is often attributed to "political correctness", when, in fact, it's because of the extreme litigiousness, originating in the USA, where people sue for compensation for any accident which happens to them.

I suspect the OP may actually be making a deliberately ridiculous thread in order to show up the ridiculousness of what he thinks is typical of the "political correctness" of pinko-liberal lefties.

(I realise I am being politically "incorrect" in assuming that the OP is male.)

I am not questioning whether the incident happened - according to Wikipedia it did - I am questioning why anyone would want to start a thread on this subject. It's perhaps the most ridiculous subject for a thread that has ever appeared on the subject of public transport!

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Old May 24th, 2015, 12:55 AM   #43
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The Topic of Racial Tensions in certain towns and cities in the US preventing mass transit projects is worthy subject to discuss and one that might surprise and shock people outside the US... But the way this thread was started was a mess.... Every site I use or look through has had a thread started by Pink Jazz on this topic...seems abit Trollish in my opinion. The Color of said line is not a problem....except for some extremists in every race or Attention seekers which the media love to promote.
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Old May 24th, 2015, 01:09 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minato ku View Post
Naming line after colors maybe works for small networks but it become complicated when the transit system grows.
At least using number or letters will not offend anyone.
As long as I get to travel on the A line and don't have to mix with those appalling B, C or D line passengers who probably don't wash.
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Old May 24th, 2015, 02:11 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexis View Post
The Topic of Racial Tensions in certain towns and cities in the US preventing mass transit projects is worthy subject to discuss and one that might surprise and shock people outside the US... But the way this thread was started was a mess.... Every site I use or look through has had a thread started by Pink Jazz on this topic...seems a bit Trollish in my opinion. The Color of said line is not a problem....except for some extremists in every race or Attention seekers which the media love to promote.
Well, there you are.

Not just "a bit Trollish" in my opinion - more a symptom of a downright obsession, and not a very pleasant one at that.

As you say, the topic of how racial tensions affect public transport is a subject worthy of discussion. For instance, I read somewhere that the route of one of the lines in the Chicago metro was determined by a desire to separate "black" and "white" areas.
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Old May 24th, 2015, 08:58 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
It wasn't till later that it became clear there was an actual real-life example of a color change happening because of racist thinking patterns by a small group of too-easily-offended professional complainers.
Check the date/time in the Atlanta Transport thread. The Gold vs Yellow example is exactly how this thread started.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
It's not a graphic designer's job to think in racist/discriminatory patterns and think yellow=Asian, red=Native American, pink=gay, etc.
Actually that's one of many things you might expect a graphic designer to do. Design does not exist in a culture-less void; it's a graphic designer's job to know the culture and where this piece of design fits in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
OK. Now there is a community that says they don't want a pink line because they think it is gay, and they won't ride a gay train. It's just a small change of something that doesn't sit well with them. Should we give in to this small group of easily offended people who think in such limiting ways? Is that good government?
I don't think I was clear about the context of that example. In various design documents, the Los Angeles MTA has given a line through West Hollywood a Pink designation as a placeholder. The LGBTQ community has actually had no problem with this, in large part because many pink/LGBTQ connections are self-appointed, unlike yellow/Asian connections, almost all of which come from outside sources. In many ways that proves the point I think we both agree on, which is that self-appointed labels are obviously fine. It's when others create those labels to marginalize that group where it becomes a problem.

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Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
I would rather have the government focus on building good transit for all people
I would too! Completely agreed. Asking for a line to go from Yellow to Gold is irrelevant in this example. It's, like, an extra $15 on the graphic designer's bill. Pretty small request.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
then have them be occupied by the baseless ramblings of the butt-hurt minority.
I think I was a bit less pissed before than I came off. I just put a minor graphic design change and complete cancellation of transit services in different fields when it comes to accommodating the vocal minority.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
The thing you want (lines built to poor/black neighborhoods), is actually being hampered by this nonsense about line colors. You need to realize that and focus on the real problem. Line colors are NOT it.
I was mad because I felt people here were criticizing a group over such an insignificant issue. Especially, as you said, compared to the much more serious issue of denying transit access altogether on the basis of race. I just don't think those are related issues at all. One is coming from a group that doesn't have much power, and the other is coming from a group with so much power that they can shut down an entire transit system in their county simply because of their views on race.
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Old May 24th, 2015, 09:13 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DCUrbanist View Post
Check the date/time in the Atlanta Transport thread. The Gold vs Yellow example is exactly how this thread started.
But topic starter didn't make it clear that he was talking about a real-life example.

Quote:
Actually that's one of many things you might expect a graphic designer to do. Design does not exist in a culture-less void; it's a graphic designer's job to know the culture and where this piece of design fits in.
If a graphic designer avoids every bit of graphic design that might offend someone, he/she ends up with a white piece of paper... and even that will offend someone.

Quote:
I don't think I was clear about the context of that example. In various design documents, the Los Angeles MTA has given a line through West Hollywood a Pink designation as a placeholder. The LGBTQ community has actually had no problem with this, in large part because many pink/LGBTQ connections are self-appointed, unlike yellow/Asian connections, almost all of which come from outside sources. In many ways that proves the point I think we both agree on, which is that self-appointed labels are obviously fine. It's when others create those labels to marginalize that group where it becomes a problem.
Agreed, but I don't metro line colors have ANYTHING to do with whatever kind of appointed labels that people might read into them.


Quote:
I would too! Completely agreed. Asking for a line to go from Yellow to Gold is irrelevant in this example. It's, like, an extra $15 on the graphic designer's bill. Pretty small request.
You shouldn't kowtow to any 'small requests' by any of these over-sensitive pressure groups.

If I start a pressure group that claims to be offended by your name. Will you go to the court to have your name changed? It's just a small change. It's not thaaaat expensive. Why do you keep offending us? You are a bigot to your group! Change your name! Now!

Quote:
I think I was a bit less pissed before than I came off. I just put a minor graphic design change and complete cancellation of transit services in different fields when it comes to accommodating the vocal minority.
Except this thread was just about line colors. You went completely off-topic by talking about a certain line somewhere not being built to a poor neighborhood. You should open a separate topic to discuss that issue.

Quote:
I was mad because I felt people here were criticizing a group over such an insignificant issue. Especially, as you said, compared to the much more serious issue of denying transit access altogether on the basis of race. I just don't think those are related issues at all. One is coming from a group that doesn't have much power, and the other is coming from a group with so much power that they can shut down an entire transit system in their county simply because of their views on race.
As I said: this thread was just about line colors. You went completely off-topic by talking about a certain line somewhere not being built to a poor neighborhood. You should open a separate topic to discuss that issue.
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Old May 24th, 2015, 11:31 AM   #48
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Thinking about it most of the metros / u bahns / undergrounds I've been on, use letters or numbers to signify the line. If a colour is chosen for mapping purposes this isn't normally the actual identity of the line in name terms, although it may be the visual identity.
The London Underground may be an exception because the lines have names.
OK the District line is green on the map, but I've never heard anyone refer to it as the Green Line.
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Old May 24th, 2015, 01:15 PM   #49
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Racial tensions are not caused by the colour of a metro line but, in times of heightened sensitivity, anything can become an issue. In fact, overt political correctness probably makes things worse as it encourages that way of thinking.

Isn't it a bit condescending to Chinese people to think that they are so shallow as to be bothered about travelling on a metro line coloured yellow? By changing it to gold are you not saying that these people are suffering from some affliction by having yellow skin that they don't want to be reminded about?

As an analogy, my star sign is Cancer the crab but, of course, cancer is also a very unpleasant illness. I'm not into astrology but, even if I were, I don't think that I would make that much of an association between my star sign and the illness.

However, when I went to the US as a teenager, I noticed that the star sign was omitted from newspaper horoscopes and so anyone born late June / early July was known as a 'moon child'. I don't know what my fellow moon children thought about that but to me it always rammed home the point that my likelihood of contracting cancer was that much greater due to my star sign and so I mustn't be reminded about it. In other words, that daft euphemism made things much worse.
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Old May 24th, 2015, 03:08 PM   #50
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The theoretical equilibrium is reached when no party takes illegitimate advantage of the situation.
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Old May 24th, 2015, 03:09 PM   #51
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That doesn't actually mean anything, does it?
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Old May 24th, 2015, 03:47 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin S View Post
In fact, overt political correctness probably makes things worse as it encourages that way of thinking.
This.

No one cares about my ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc save the anti-discrimination industry that wants to know my ethnicity to make sure I'm not a victim of racial discrimination, orientation to make sure I'm not a victim of homophobia, etc.

It is the 'anti-racists' who are obsessed with defining everyone by their race in most of the developed world, with a very few hold outs.
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Old May 24th, 2015, 04:16 PM   #53
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Wow... This political correctness madness is spreading like a virus.
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Old May 25th, 2015, 05:09 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
If a graphic designer avoids every bit of graphic design that might offend someone, he/she ends up with a white piece of paper... and even that will offend someone.
I can't think of a single example of when your slippery slope argument has applied when minor graphic design changes leads to something like NIMBYism. I'd really appreciate if you could provide an example of when a small change like the one we're discussing led to far larger and more impactful requests being accommodated.

When it comes to examples like this, we have to ask why people are asking for changes. Clearly this was an issue that meant a lot to people, or Asian-American leaders wouldn't have used their political points to push for the change. I see this as an example of when there could be something to gain in responding to the requests of a specific population. Does changing the name rob everyone else of significant access to transit service, convenience, or service they pay for in taxes? I really don't think it does.

When those questions of why people ask for changes have different answers, you might get something like NIMBYism, which seems to be what you're implying is the next logical step in heeding a request like this one. NIMBYism is horrible in the American political system: people asking for changes because they see major improvements for all as less important than their personal inconveniences. I have no doubt I'm just ask frustrated about that as anyone. Projects take longer and cost more than they should in many cases.

Maybe I just have a lot of empathy for groups of people who feel like they have been left out of top-down decision-making processes for decades, seeing as I'm from a few of those groups.

Last edited by DCUrbanist; May 25th, 2015 at 05:15 AM.
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Old May 25th, 2015, 08:54 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by DCUrbanist View Post
I can't think of a single example of when your slippery slope argument has applied when minor graphic design changes leads to something like NIMBYism. I'd really appreciate if you could provide an example of when a small change like the one we're discussing led to far larger and more impactful requests being accommodated.

When it comes to examples like this, we have to ask why people are asking for changes. Clearly this was an issue that meant a lot to people, or Asian-American leaders wouldn't have used their political points to push for the change. I see this as an example of when there could be something to gain in responding to the requests of a specific population. Does changing the name rob everyone else of significant access to transit service, convenience, or service they pay for in taxes? I really don't think it does.

When those questions of why people ask for changes have different answers, you might get something like NIMBYism, which seems to be what you're implying is the next logical step in heeding a request like this one. NIMBYism is horrible in the American political system: people asking for changes because they see major improvements for all as less important than their personal inconveniences. I have no doubt I'm just ask frustrated about that as anyone. Projects take longer and cost more than they should in many cases.

Maybe I just have a lot of empathy for groups of people who feel like they have been left out of top-down decision-making processes for decades, seeing as I'm from a few of those groups.
Thinking that a Yellow Line refers to Asians is a racist thinking pattern.
You should NEVER give in to the demands of the easily-offended, out of principle.
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Old May 25th, 2015, 05:48 PM   #56
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I do not know it if makes any sense to call the Washington Metro lines the "Pantone 193/144/2925/364/etc line" (there would be trademark issues with Pantone).
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Old May 25th, 2015, 10:10 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
Thinking that a Yellow Line refers to Asians is a racist thinking pattern.
You should NEVER give in to the demands of the easily-offended, out of principle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin S View Post
Isn't it a bit condescending to Chinese people to think that they are so shallow as to be bothered about travelling on a metro line coloured yellow? By changing it to gold are you not saying that these people are suffering from some affliction by having yellow skin that they don't want to be reminded about?
It seems like you're misunderstanding who wanted it changed. It was local leaders in the Asian-American community who pushed for this change. I completely agree that officials without much real-world contact shouldn't be the ones deciding what is and isn't appropriate. In this case, they weren't.

Yes, thinking that the Yellow Line refers to Asians is a racist thinking pattern. That's one reason exactly why the local Asian-American leaders pushed for the change. They were not the ones who started that thinking pattern, but they tried to help address it.

You and I don't know what the "easily-offended" have been through and what has led them to feel how they've felt. Don't you have room in your heart for a little bit of compassion? Is one word on a map such a large or ridiculous request that you cannot empathize with a group of people who have gone through a lot?
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Old May 26th, 2015, 12:42 AM   #58
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The whole concept of this thread is ridiculous...
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Old May 26th, 2015, 04:16 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by DCUrbanist View Post
It seems like you're misunderstanding who wanted it changed. It was local leaders in the Asian-American community who pushed for this change. I completely agree that officials without much real-world contact shouldn't be the ones deciding what is and isn't appropriate. In this case, they weren't.

Yes, thinking that the Yellow Line refers to Asians is a racist thinking pattern. That's one reason exactly why the local Asian-American leaders pushed for the change. They were not the ones who started that thinking pattern, but they tried to help address it.

You and I don't know what the "easily-offended" have been through and what has led them to feel how they've felt. Don't you have room in your heart for a little bit of compassion? Is one word on a map such a large or ridiculous request that you cannot empathize with a group of people who have gone through a lot?
Oh please stop with the melodramatic holier-than-thou i'm-the-only-one-with-empathy attitude.

There are REAL problems with racism, line colors are NOT one.

Thinking line colors have anything to do with race and wanting them changed for 'race reasons' is part of racist thought. It should not be tolerated.

How many Asians can live along a line before it can no longer be the Yellow Line? 1? 10? 100? 1000? 10000?
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Old May 26th, 2015, 05:16 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexis View Post
The Topic of Racial Tensions in certain towns and cities in the US preventing mass transit projects is worthy subject to discuss and one that might surprise and shock people outside the US...
I guess it would, the way US forumers put it...

I mean, talk about that in Europe or Latin America (and I guess that Asia or Africa too), and you'd get laughed at.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenda goats View Post
Thinking about it most of the metros / u bahns / undergrounds I've been on, use letters or numbers to signify the line. If a colour is chosen for mapping purposes this isn't normally the actual identity of the line in name terms, although it may be the visual identity.
The London Underground may be an exception because the lines have names.
OK the District line is green on the map, but I've never heard anyone refer to it as the Green Line.
Now wou will, this song is sung by a Londoner, and it's dedicated to the Yellow Line of the Tube:



Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin S View Post
Racial tensions are not caused by the colour of a metro line but, in times of heightened sensitivity, anything can become an issue. In fact, overt political correctness probably makes things worse as it encourages that way of thinking.
Overt political correctness? I'd call it political overcorrectness.

Which in fact, is a way of being incorrect.
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