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Old August 24th, 2015, 11:09 PM   #1
MichiH
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Schengen Area

A new thread for this topic to relieve other topics like the "International Border Crossings" thread.

We can discuss all issues about Schengen Area:
- Advantages
- Disadvantages
- New members
- ....

Please refer to wikipedia for more info about Schengen Area.

Copy of the recent discussion:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Clerk View Post
To be sure there's gonna be no Schengen for Romania and Bulgaria:

Quote:
Originally Posted by winnipeg View Post
I don't see the link with Romania and Bulgaria coming into Schengen, but external borders need to be more protected and for me, they need to exist physicaly (like what Hungary is making on his border with Serbia). If things stay like they are now, Romania and Bulgaria could come into Schengen, you won't see any change in the actual mass immigration...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Clerk View Post
If Romania and Bulgaria were in Schengen, there would be a continuous and borderless land mass in between the hundreds of thousand of migrants waiting now in Greece to breakthrough into the rest of Schengen area (now starting in Hungary) and central Europe. Basically, if Romania and Bulgaria were in Schengen, the migrants would have a free passage to Germany and France, and other rich EU members.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
The current situation shows that Schengen does not work. I don't think that anyone would extend Schengen when the system obviously does not work! That's the link to potential new members!

The original problem why people flee is outside of Europe but that refugees go through Macedonia and Serbia is an EU problem/Schengen problem that concerns Non-EU/Schengen countries because EU/Schengen members do not handle the issue internally. The problem is that people LEAVE a Schengen country!

Yes, external borders need to be more protected to avoid people LEAVING a Schengen country!

It would not change anything but one cannot (should not) extend a system which is not working at all!
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
It would change nothing if just the border between Greece and Bulgaria would remain - handled as an external border for the time being!

Anyway, RO and BG will not enter Schengen before the end of 2016 and EU must find a solution for handling the situation as soon as possible.

Germany just complaints that 40% of the refugees would come to Germany and other (eastern) EU countries don't want to house refugees. Some German politicians want to close the border but that's all bullshit because it just help slave traders/human traffickers (what's the common wording?).

Schengen members should help Greece to find a solution there. To avoid people leaving Schengen to Macedonia/Serbia. That could be a short-term way. A medium-term way would be helping the refugees in their country or at the border where they leave their own country, to avoid that they risk their lifes and wasting all their money during the travel to "paradisiac" Western Europe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Clerk View Post
smugglers

Romania accepted to receive a quota of between 2 k and 3 k imigrants

anyway, I do not think we'll get into Schengen in 2016. Maybe only with aerial and maritime borders.
Quote:
Originally Posted by winnipeg View Post
But look at the news, this is already the case, they already can go almost freely into Schengen through the Serbia/Hungary border...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Clerk View Post
Almost freely. That's the key word. They still have to break through the GR-MK border, and then the MK-SR border and then the SR-HU border. That's 3 more borders to get through. If RO and BG were în Schengen there would be 0 borders . And then RO and BG would be a motorway to Germany for migrants.

The same number of borders is currently through the non-Schengen România and Bulgaria. Problem is Danube. It's a natural border and very difficult to pas.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aubergine72 View Post
Schengen is an obvious failure and will probably be abolished soon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theijs View Post
I wouldn't say so. I recall the long queues at the D/PL border as you see nowadays at the external Schengenborders. From an economic perspective is the not-having-to-wait-hours-at-the-border both for trucks and people a positive side of Schengen. Trains don't lose time at borders like now at the H/RO border. So there is an important positive aspect why Schengen won't be abolished soon. Instead an common immigration plan with review of Dublin agreement on asylum would be preferable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by winnipeg View Post
Because you are only seing the bad part of it, hopefully the best part is bigger in my opinion... but the only possible mistake was to enlarge it a bit to much into eastern Europe without being able to ensure the security at those borders...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ionuty View Post
Yes, cause Spain and Italy are doing really well with the migrants
Quote:
Originally Posted by winnipeg View Post
Right, but the problem is different as it is not land borders, but the problem is the same in a way, this is the lack of security on the outside borders of UE/Schengen...
Quote:
Originally Posted by cinxxx View Post
Abolishing Schengen would mean border controls with Austria, France, NL. That would be a disaster for Germany, already overcrowded with cars and traffic. The solution is a good plan to tackle immigration, to tackle situation inwar zones, to help countries like Greece, Italy to deal with hoards of immigrants. But western countries only blame others...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shenkey View Post
If Germany and Sweden wouldn't encourage them, there would be way less of them.

They should take in ever bigger share.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shenkey View Post
If Germany and Sweden wouldn't encourage them, there would be way less of them.

They should take in ever bigger share.
Encourage whom? Other EU countries or refugees? Sorry, I don't get it....

Quote:
Originally Posted by cinxxx View Post
Abolishing Schengen would mean border controls with Austria, France, NL. That would be a disaster for Germany, already overcrowded with cars and traffic. The solution is a good plan to tackle immigration, to tackle situation inwar zones, to help countries like Greece, Italy to deal with hoards of immigrants. But western countries only blame others...
Sorry, but I think that's exactly what I wrote...

btw: It's sometimes called "migration of peoples" ("Völkerwanderung") in Germany. I read some interesting (German) news article about it. For instance, there was a comparison to the end of the Roman Empire. But the conclusion of the article is, that the situation is different now. "Rome even survived its own ruin".

Another interesting fact is, that Germany expects about 800,000 immigrants this year. The highest immigration was in 1993 when 438,000 refugees came to Germany (YU war).
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Old August 24th, 2015, 11:22 PM   #2
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Schengen worked fine until the unfortunate confluence of the collapses of Syria Libya and effectively Greece as well resulted in a flood of misery washing up unchecked at its southern borders. A combination of water, functioning states and dictators secured the southern Schengen border for many decades.

When Hungary finishes its fence with Serbia it will shortly find itself starting on a similar one along the Romanian border as the pressure inevitably moves eastbound. In fact I only give it a fortnight before the Romanian - Serbian border is reinforced with extra security personnel.

Spain has a notably less porous frontier in the past 10 years, that was not always the case.
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Old August 24th, 2015, 11:26 PM   #3
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What I find funny of this discussion is that many assume that before Schengen borders were impermeable. Well, they were not!
After the fall of the Iron Curtain it was quite easy to enter the EU illegally. There was no fence anymore so it was easier to jump the border. Only thing you had to do was not get caught by a border patrol.

But the main problem of the EU/Schengen, similar to the USA, is that it created a fortress (on many levels).

Once you get in the EU as an illegal immigrant you will do anything to not get caught and sent back, because it's quite expensive/difficult/dangerous to get back in.

Further, all the individual EU members should stop with their nimby behaviour and should find all together a solution for the current situation with refugees from the Middle East. It's the same EU with the USA that created the breeding ground in for example Syria.

Last edited by Tachi; August 24th, 2015 at 11:28 PM. Reason: Adjusted to new topic
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Old August 24th, 2015, 11:29 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tachi View Post
. It's the same EU with the USA that created the breeding ground in for example Syria.
And Libya!
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Old August 24th, 2015, 11:40 PM   #5
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Half the world's refugees come from three countries: Syria, Afghanistan and Somalia (fair observer, 28th July 2015)

Why is EU struggling with migrants and asylum? (BBC, 19th August 2015)




(BBC, 19th August 2015)
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Old August 25th, 2015, 12:14 AM   #6
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What does this have to do with roads?
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Old August 25th, 2015, 01:39 AM   #7
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Old August 25th, 2015, 01:48 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verso View Post
What does this have to do with roads?
It's not totally off topic, as Schengen agreement has a lot of influence in road traffic and infrastructure between different countries.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old August 25th, 2015, 01:53 AM   #9
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The discussion so far has nothing to do with roads though.
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Old August 25th, 2015, 01:55 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sponge_bob View Post
And Libya!
but what the USA or EU can do?

In Libya made military adventure and everything is ****ed and people running across Mediterranean

In Syria did not do anything and... everything is ****ed and people running away
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Old August 25th, 2015, 02:51 AM   #11
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Yes. Everything is f***keeeeeed Kanadzie.
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Old August 25th, 2015, 03:16 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verso View Post
The discussion so far has nothing to do with roads though.
Well, let's bring it onto roads.

Schengen isn't all great on the external Schengen border - it seems that more and more expensive infrastructure is needed at external crossings, even in places where there's really no need to build such.

It also seems to be very difficult to actually get external Schengen crossings open - there are several places on the PL-BY/RU/UA border where they really could do with simple crossings for instance.

The other issue with Schengen is that the possibility of unguarded tourist crossings seems to have gone. YU/A, PL/D and CZ/D all had them - yet these days, no-one is even thinking about such crossings with SLO/HR for instance.
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Old August 25th, 2015, 03:49 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sponge_bob View Post
Schengen worked fine until the unfortunate confluence of the collapses of Syria Libya and effectively Greece as well resulted in a flood of misery washing up unchecked at its southern borders. A combination of water, functioning states and dictators secured the southern Schengen border for many decades.

When Hungary finishes its fence with Serbia it will shortly find itself starting on a similar one along the Romanian border as the pressure inevitably moves eastbound. In fact I only give it a fortnight before the Romanian - Serbian border is reinforced with extra security personnel.

Spain has a notably less porous frontier in the past 10 years, that was not always the case.
Why? They would move through Croatia. I understand that there's the Danube, but at least after Romania it would definitely go through Croatia.
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Old August 25th, 2015, 07:33 AM   #14
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I am reading some are crossing now through the nearby SR-RO-HU borders on Rabe (SR)=>Beba Veche (RO)=>Kubekhaza (HU) to by-pass the wall.





Hungary will not be able to build the same wall on the HU-RO border because it's illegal under the EU law. Plus they do not really want it.
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Old August 25th, 2015, 11:41 AM   #15
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The big problem for states south of Schengen is that carriers have strict liability.

If a truck driver who has a TIR plate stops for coffee in Romania or Serbia before heding for Hungarian border control then the truck driver may find guests who invite themselves into the back of the truck. If the guests are discovered in Hungary a few hours later the truck driver may find themselves in big trouble and minus a truck.

The delays on every Schengen frontier to the south will be brutal from now on, everything will be checked. This affects normal commerce all the way down to Turkey.

Macedonia gave up attempting to control anything on Sunday and their Interior minister said as much, they now simply run trains from Greece to Serbia to pass the problem on to the north.
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Old August 26th, 2015, 09:46 PM   #16
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About Hungary building a fence on the RO border - actually, I don't think it is illegal. Barbed wire fences existed on the D-PL border up until 2007, and I think similar fences existed at least in some areas between the PL-CZ border. Even in Schengen, parts of the PL-CZ border cannot be crossed freely - the Krknose/Karkonosze National Park for instance has a ban on random crossings.

There would be nothing stopping them building the fence as such, and Fidesz would love to be told by the EU "no" - because it would give them even more reason to build it.
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Old August 26th, 2015, 10:02 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eulanthe View Post
About Hungary building a fence on the RO border - actually, I don't think it is illegal. Barbed wire fences existed on the D-PL border up until 2007, and I think similar fences existed at least in some areas between the PL-CZ border. Even in Schengen, parts of the PL-CZ border cannot be crossed freely - the Krknose/Karkonosze National Park for instance has a ban on random crossings.

There would be nothing stopping them building the fence as such, and Fidesz would love to be told by the EU "no" - because it would give them even more reason to build it.
Then Hungary should also build a wall along the Croatian border, otherwise immigrants would be able to bypass the wall from the west.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old August 26th, 2015, 11:03 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
Then Hungary should also build a wall along the Croatian border, otherwise immigrants would be able to bypass the wall from the west.
And this is the way to madness, isn't it?

I've heard it suggested that if Hungary really clamps down on the border, then the next step will be for the transit route to go through Bosnia and Croatia instead. The Bosnian border police aren't anywhere near ready to deal with it, and Croatia will have immense trouble patrolling their huge external border with Bosnia.

It was mentioned above, but Schengen really wasn't designed to deal with large-scale migrant flows.
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Old August 26th, 2015, 11:10 PM   #19
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Again, most of the migrants LEAVE Schengen Area and re-enter it (to Hungary). I think it's totally wrong to try changing anything at the Hungarian border........
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Which new motorways are currently under construction?
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See 'New motorway projects' thread

** Please help completing and updating of the list **

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Old August 26th, 2015, 11:53 PM   #20
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I don't see why asylum seekers (those that flee a war or prosecution, not economic migrants) must necessarily flee to Western EU. If their aim is to escape a war-torn country (Syria, Iraq, Somalia, Libya,...) or otherwise a country where life is difficult due to harsh regimes or tribal guerrilla (Nigeria, Eritrea, Pakistan, Afghanistan,...), they could move to the first safe/stable country that they can easily reach (Turkey for Syrians, Kenya for Somali, Morocco for Central Africans,...). If they come across all difficulties to get to Sweden, Germany, etc... it's clear that they're also economic migrants, and not only willing to save their life.
Moreover, if one really qualify for asylum, s/he can arrive in Greece (that is relatively practical for Syrians, Iraqis,..) and apply for asylum there. Once s/he'll get the right to stay, s/he can legally move to wealthier EU members, without roaming between corn fields in the Balkans and giving all their (very modest) belongings to criminal human traffickers.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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