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Old August 27th, 2015, 08:45 AM   #21
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Most 'refugees' I saw in interviews (there are Romanian TV stations posted at the Serbian-Hungarian border) stated they wanted a good life in a civilised country (most of them wanting to reach Germany, Netherlands or Sweden). So most of them are actually economic migrants.
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Old August 27th, 2015, 01:37 PM   #22
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So it's a proof that they're lying when they claim political asylum. Even the poorest EU member is much more civilized, developed and free than the countries they come from, so if they are really asylum seekers they should accept asylum anywhere.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.

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Old August 27th, 2015, 01:45 PM   #23
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So it's a proof that they're lying when they claim political asylum. Even the poorest EU member is much more civilized, developed and free than the countries they come from, so if they are really asylum seekers they should accept asylum anywhere.
Actually it's not really anything new. Just think how the political refugees from the communist countries spread around the world. Even if they claimed political asylum, they went for the richest countries in the world. It makes perfect sense.
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Old August 27th, 2015, 02:50 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by italystf View Post
if they are really asylum seekers they should accept asylum anywhere.
Accept, yes. But in Greece or in Hungary they have very little chances to really get it. In Germany 99.5% of Syrian citizens get it.

Actually, is it now despite the name 'Schengen Area' a political thread about refugees?
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Old August 27th, 2015, 02:58 PM   #25
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Even if there are no border controls between Schengen members, in most border crossings you can still see the remain of former border facilities. How many important border crossings (motorways, expressways, main roads), were opened after both countries joined Schengen and thus the border is marked only by signs?
Of course the motorway between Slovenia and Hungary, probably some motorways between Germany and Poland or Spain and Portugal. Anything else?

(trying to keep this thread on topic before it will be locked or deleted...)
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.

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Old August 27th, 2015, 03:48 PM   #26
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http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-10474464.html

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Up to 50 people, presumed to be asylum-seekers, have been found dead in the back of a lorry in Austria.

Officials referred to the dead as migrants, and local media reports suggested they died of "suffocation" after being trapped in the lorry's trailer. A police manhunt has been launched to find the driver, who is suspected of smuggling the victims into the country.

The bodies were found in the back of a refrigerated food delivery truck, which had been parked on the hard shoulder of the A4 road, Austria's "Eastern Motorway", near the town of Parndorf.
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Old August 28th, 2015, 01:39 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Eulanthe View Post
And this is the way to madness, isn't it?

I've heard it suggested that if Hungary really clamps down on the border, then the next step will be for the transit route to go through Bosnia and Croatia instead. The Bosnian border police aren't anywhere near ready to deal with it, and Croatia will have immense trouble patrolling their huge external border with Bosnia.

It was mentioned above, but Schengen really wasn't designed to deal with large-scale migrant flows.
I guess Bosnia will finally get mine-free...
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Old August 28th, 2015, 10:35 AM   #28
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Romania is not building a wall for now .

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Security measures at the border with Serbia will be strengthened
Friday, August 28, 2015

Romania's security measures at its border with Serbia will be strengthened, Romania's Interior Minister Gabriel Oprea said Thursday at the Government House in Bucharest.

"I have urged all the members of National Committee for Special Emergency Situations to responsible attitude and preventive action to contain national security risks that could be generated by the dynamics of the current regional context. We have decided today to strengthen the security measures at the border with Serbia in order to avoid collateral risks that attracting Romania in the migration flows affecting the neighbour countries may generate," Oprea said at the end of a meeting of the National Committee for Special Emergency Situations.

He added that in geostrategic terms Romania provides security for 2,070 km of the external borders of the European Union, 546 km of which at the border with Serbia.

"In this border area, we will intensify security measures by joint measures, under an integrated system. We are contemplating intensifying cooperation between the national law enforcement authorities as an aspect of interest in state border security, and increasing operative capabilities at the border with Serbia, increasing operative capabilities in the border areas at risk through technical means as well as day and night vision devices," said Oprea.

He mentioned that it was also decided that the authorised state organisations monitor the developments in the regional situation, so that the measures in the national security plan may be adjusted for the latest dynamics.

Likewise, the opportunity for preventive development of infrastructure to increase the capacity of reception and management of an increased number of migrants was also decided.

"All this although Romania has nationwide six regional centres to accommodate asylum seekers that can accommodate nearly 1,500 people, which occupancy rate is currently 20 percent," added Oprea.
http://actmedia.eu/daily/security-me...ngthened/59681
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Old August 28th, 2015, 03:54 PM   #29
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Romania is not building a wall for now .
http://actmedia.eu/daily/security-me...ngthened/59681
I said "Give it a Fortnight" did I not. ???
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Old August 28th, 2015, 03:56 PM   #30
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What I find funny of this discussion is that many assume that before Schengen borders were impermeable. Well, they were not!
After the fall of the Iron Curtain it was quite easy to enter the EU illegally. There was no fence anymore so it was easier to jump the border. Only thing you had to do was not get caught by a border patrol.

But the main problem of the EU/Schengen, similar to the USA, is that it created a fortress (on many levels).

Once you get in the EU as an illegal immigrant you will do anything to not get caught and sent back, because it's quite expensive/difficult/dangerous to get back in.

Further, all the individual EU members should stop with their nimby behaviour and should find all together a solution for the current situation with refugees from the Middle East. It's the same EU with the USA that created the breeding ground in for example Syria.
The EU as an entity is not responsible for the rise of ISIS or the war in Syria or the invasion of Iraq which destabilised Iraq and eventually Syria too. Individual EU member states, often opposed by other EU member states (remember 'old Europe' and 'new Europe', 'cheese-eating surrender monkeys' and the other insults that were thrown at France and Germany when they opposed the 2003 Iraq invasion?), chose to destroy Iraq and Libya (the UK and France bear primary responsibility among EU member states for the latter) but since the EU as an entity has no legal powers to declare war or make war, I think it's going too far to blame the EU as an entity or to blame EU states that opposed the 2003 invasion of Iraq or the more recent air campaign in Libya.

And let's put things into perspective. There are over four million Syrian people who have sought refuge in Turkey, Iraq, Lebanon, Egypt and Jordan.

Only a relatively small number of Syrians are seeking refuge in the EU and almost all of those eventually end up in the northern European countries, Germany, Sweden, Denmark etc:

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This figure includes 2.1 million Syrians registered by UNHCR in Egypt, Iraq, Jordan and Lebanon, 1.9 million Syrians registered by the Government of Turkey, as well as more than 24,000 Syrian refugees registered in North Africa.

Regional demographic breakdown below is based on available data from Egypt, Iraq, Jordan and Lebanon
http://data.unhcr.org/syrianrefugees/regional.php

I'm not sure how Schengen per se is responsible for a war in Syria, or the instability in Libya, or the dictatorship in Eritrea etc etc.

I'm glad that Europe (Schengen isn't just an EU project - Switzerland, Norway and Iceland are all members of the Schengen Area and they're not in the EU) is in general seen as a safe place of refuge (imagine how bad things would be in Europe if even Syrians didn't want to come here) and in general (with obvious exceptions!) operates a humane and reasonable response towards asylum seekers and other migrants.

Anyway, as a migrant myself (from one non-Schengen EU country to another) I don't see the problem with migration whatever the reason behind it. It's been a defining feature of human activity since the earliest days of humanity.

Migration is one of the activities that defines us as human beings - its underlying impulse, except in extreme circumstances, being curiosity, a trait of human beings that has led us to being the dominant species on our little planet. Long may it continue!
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Old August 28th, 2015, 04:27 PM   #31
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So it's a proof that they're lying when they claim political asylum. Even the poorest EU member is much more civilized, developed and free than the countries they come from, so if they are really asylum seekers they should accept asylum anywhere.
Why? Do you think that asylum seekers shouldn't concern themselves with quality of life for themselves and their children? If you had children would you be content to live in a terrible refugee camp in Greece with no proper educational facilities for your children or would you do your best to get them to a country where you believed they might be able to create a good future for themselves?

If you've taken the drastic decision to leave your own country, leaving behind most of your possessions, leaving behind any property you own, never knowing when you'd be able to return, or if you might be forced to return when it's still unsafe, the least you're going to do is to try to gain refugee status in the country that you think is most likely to provide a safe refuge for you and your children, especially since some countries have a much higher rate of acceptance of claims for asylum than other countries.

For example, the UK rejects most claims for asylum whereas Sweden accepts most claims for asylum.

In addition, Germany has now waived the 'Dublin Regulation' requirement for asylum seekers, so the rule that asylum seekers should seek refuge in the first safe country they come to no longer applies to anyone seeking asylum in Germany.

Then there's the simple fact that conditions in many of the first countries that asylum seekers arrive in are so poor, massive overcrowding in camps, lack of proper refugee housing, no proper refugee healthcare etc etc, that they are no longer considered safe countries in which to seek asylum by the European Court of Human Rights.

Are you sure that Greece, Italy, Romania, Bulgaria and Hungary meet the definition of 'safe' countries?

Because the European Court of Human Rights doesn't, at least not for Greece or Italy. And the general principles of its rulings in the relevant cases apply to all countries that are parties to the European Convention on Human Rights, including Romania, Bulgaria and Hungary.

The European Court of Human Rights has previously ruled that refugees who left Greece for another EU country (Belgium, but the principle applies to all EU countries) couldn't be sent back to Greece because conditions for asylum seekers in Greece were so bad that their human rights couldn't be guaranteed in Greece (M.S.S v Belgium and Greece).

It has also ruled that conditions in Italy are so bad that Switzerland (also in Schengen, not in the EU) cannot deport a family of Afghan asylum seekers back to Italy:

Quote:
November 5, 2014. The AIRE Centre (Advice on Individual Rights in Europe), ECRE (European Council on Refugees and Exiles) and Amnesty International welcome the European Court of Human Rights’ judgment in the case of Tarakhel v Switzerland, in which the organizations had intervened jointly with the assistance of lawyers from across Europe in February 2014.

The Tarakhel family, an Afghan family with young children, made their way to Switzerland from Italy and claimed asylum there. The European Court of Human Rights (ECtHR) held yesterday that returning the family to Italy without guarantees that they would benefit from appropriate conditions would violate human rights as enshrined in the European Convention of Human Rights.

The Court ruled that returning the family to Italy would breach Article 3 of the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR) which prohibits inhuman and degrading treatment, if this were done without Switzerland having first obtained specific individual guarantees that the Italian authorities would take charge of the applicants in a manner adapted to the age of the children and that the family would be kept together.

The ECtHR reiterated that before returning people under the Dublin Regulation, States have to obtain individual guarantees that the fundamental rights of asylum seekers will be respected. It ruled that safety in another European Member State cannot be assumed.

The Court stated that in the present case in view of the current situation as regards the reception system for asylum seekers in Italy, the possibility that a significant number of asylum seekers removed to that country may be left without accommodation or accommodated in overcrowded facilities without any privacy, or even in insalubrious or violent conditions, is not unfounded.

The Court underlined its previous findings in the M.S.S v Belgium and Greece that asylum seekers as a particularly underprivileged and vulnerable population group are in need of special protection, and emphasized that the requirement of “special protection” of asylum seekers is particularly important when the persons concerned are children, in view of their specific needs and extreme vulnerability.


The AIRE Centre (Advice on Individual Rights in Europe), together with ECRE (European Council on Refugees and Exiles) and Amnesty International, assisted by lawyers from across Europe, intervened in the litigation. The interveners note Yesterday’s decision is a definite step forward as it reiterates asylum seekers cannot be automatically returned to another EU country on the assumption that all EU Member States respect fundamental rights. The Court clarifies that where there are substantial grounds for believing that the individuals face a real risk of ill-treatment, the authorities must conduct a thorough examination of the individuals’ particular situation before returning anyone under the Dublin Regulation to ensure that their fundamental rights will be respected. Guarantees specific to any particularly vulnerable individuals - such as families with young children - must be obtained so as to ensure those individuals will personally benefit from appropriate material conditions. This duty goes beyond assessing the general situation.”
http://ecre.org/component/content/ar...uarantees.html

Your opinion that 'if they are really asylum seekers they should accept asylum anywhere' is not shared by the European Court of Human Rights (ECtHR). it's just your opinion, not a statement of the law like the ECtHR rulings are.

There is no legal obligation on asylum seekers to accept asylum 'anywhere'.

They are allowed to seek asylum in the first safe country they come to. And since the ECtHR has ruled that conditions in Greece and Italy are so poor that they could violate the human rights of asylum seekers, they can no longer be considered safe countries.

I doubt that Hungary, Romania or Bulgaria or any of the Balkan states would be considered safe countries either because they wouldn't be able to provide facilities for asylum seekers that are any better than the poor conditions provided in Greece and Italy.

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Old August 28th, 2015, 04:56 PM   #32
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I don't see why asylum seekers (those that flee a war or prosecution, not economic migrants) must necessarily flee to Western EU. If their aim is to escape a war-torn country (Syria, Iraq, Somalia, Libya,...) or otherwise a country where life is difficult due to harsh regimes or tribal guerrilla (Nigeria, Eritrea, Pakistan, Afghanistan,...), they could move to the first safe/stable country that they can easily reach (Turkey for Syrians, Kenya for Somali, Morocco for Central Africans,...). If they come across all difficulties to get to Sweden, Germany, etc... it's clear that they're also economic migrants, and not only willing to save their life.
The vast majority, over 4 million, of people who've fled Syria have gone to neighbouring countries (Turkey, Lebanon, Jordan) or Egypt. If you look at global asylum figures you'll see that the vast majority of people who leave African countries go to other African countries and the vast majority of people who leave Asian countries go to other Asian countries. The West in general, and Europe in particular, receive only a small proportion of all the asylum seekers in the world.

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Originally Posted by italystf View Post
IMoreover, if one really qualify for asylum, s/he can arrive in Greece (that is relatively practical for Syrians, Iraqis,..) and apply for asylum there. Once s/he'll get the right to stay, s/he can legally move to wealthier EU members, without roaming between corn fields in the Balkans and giving all their (very modest) belongings to criminal human traffickers.
You can't move from one EU country to another if you're granted asylum. A grant of asylum in Greece does not allow you to live in another EU country, only in Greece.

And, as I've posted above, the European Court of Human Rights has ruled that just because a country is in the EU doesn't mean it should be assumed to be a safe country for asylum seekers.
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Old August 28th, 2015, 05:20 PM   #33
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And, as I've posted above, the European Court of Human Rights has ruled that just because a country is in the EU doesn't mean it should be assumed to be a safe country for asylum seekers.
And of course an Asylum Seeker can be SAFE without ever entering the EU as well.

EG an Asylum Seeker who is SAFE in a UN Camp in Turkey could find themselves UNSAFE when landing on a beach in Greece some time later and then further on at a border crossing to Macedonia .....and so on so on until they find themselves in a Hostel in Dresden.

In the Hostel in Dresden they may, objectively, be no more safe than they were in the UN Camp in Turkey but they may be more safe in either than they would be camping on a railway platform in Budapest.

To claim asylum one must also have a "well founded" fear of persecution driving one to leave where you were. You may be more in fear in Dresden than you were in Turkey but less in fear in Dresden than you were in the boat off Lesbos on the way there.

Complicated is it not ???
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Old August 28th, 2015, 05:29 PM   #34
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I would want to say persecution only coming from the state is an issue, and surely in EU this is not happening (now, not before!)
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Old August 28th, 2015, 05:47 PM   #35
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I would want to say persecution only coming from the state is an issue, and surely in EU this is not happening (now, not before!)
Yes but the court of human rights did not find that those southern european countries were unsafe because of persecutions they commit on migrants.

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The Court stated that in the present case in view of the current situation as regards the reception system for asylum seekers in Italy, the possibility that a significant number of asylum seekers removed to that country may be left without accommodation or accommodated in overcrowded facilities without any privacy, or even in insalubrious or violent conditions, is not unfounded.
This is the accommodation where one is housed long term WHILE one applies for Asylum. The Italians are welcome to build this safe accommodation in Libya itself if they wish but they have been found ( by the court) not to have it available in Italy.

The applicant was in Switzerland where the housing was evidently better.
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Old August 28th, 2015, 07:22 PM   #36
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I dunno. I am not even sure why there are accomodations or these kinds of migrant-camps... can't they figure this out on their own?
Or is the lack of legal legitimacy giving them problems to find employment, etc to support themselves?

The thing that is most bothering me about the situation is how they are going on boats that clearly can't make the trip and then need rescue... they are paying good money for the trip... can't they manage to use at least a boat that floats?!
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Old August 28th, 2015, 09:56 PM   #37
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And of course an Asylum Seeker can be SAFE without ever entering the EU as well.

EG an Asylum Seeker who is SAFE in a UN Camp in Turkey could find themselves UNSAFE when landing on a beach in Greece some time later and then further on at a border crossing to Macedonia .....and so on so on until they find themselves in a Hostel in Dresden.

In the Hostel in Dresden they may, objectively, be no more safe than they were in the UN Camp in Turkey but they may be more safe in either than they would be camping on a railway platform in Budapest.

To claim asylum one must also have a "well founded" fear of persecution driving one to leave where you were. You may be more in fear in Dresden than you were in Turkey but less in fear in Dresden than you were in the boat off Lesbos on the way there.

Complicated is it not ???
I guess that's why almost 2 million Syrians remain in Turkey while a much, much smaller number attempt to get into the EU.

Whether a Syrian asylum seeker who seeks asylum in the EU would have been safer in Turkey or a particular EU country is indeed complicated. Which is why I prefer to leave it to competent courts to decide rather than ill-informed posters on discussion forums.
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Old August 28th, 2015, 10:02 PM   #38
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Yes but the court of human rights did not find that those southern european countries were unsafe because of persecutions they commit on migrants.



This is the accommodation where one is housed long term WHILE one applies for Asylum. The Italians are welcome to build this safe accommodation in Libya itself if they wish but they have been found ( by the court) not to have it available in Italy.

The applicant was in Switzerland where the housing was evidently better.
I sincerely doubt the ECtHR would regard Libya as a safe country:

https://www.hrw.org/world-report/201...chapters/libya

http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Count...a_23.12.14.pdf

http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Count...ndersLibya.pdf

Quote:
The human rights situation in Libya has remained of serious concern during the first half of 2015. While political parties failed to resolve their differences, ongoing conflict between armed groups continued to severely impact the civilian population, many of whom have been targeted or displaced due to political, tribal and regional divides. Public health care has been badly strained by the violence, and some hospitals, such as in Benghazi, have been damaged in the fighting and are currently not open. Moreover, the unstable security situation has allowed extremist groups to operate and commit atrocities in Libya with impunity, and allowed people smugglers to cause a humanitarian crisis by exploiting migrants seeking to cross the Mediterranean. Reports by the UN, human rights NGOs and human rights defenders (HRDs) have highlighted the worsening human rights and humanitarian situations caused by the continuing conflict, and the suffering of the civilian population, civil society and HRDs.

On 25 March, the UN Support Mission in Libya (UNSMIL) and the Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) published their joint report “Human Rights Defenders Under Attack”. The UN documented that armed groups on all sides of the conflict have disregarded civilians and committed violations of international human rights and humanitarian law, and violations and abuses of human rights, including abductions, extrajudicial executions, unlawful killings, torture and other ill-treatment. Armed groups have targeted HRDs seeking to document and denounce such violations and abuses. Moderates who have supported the UN-facilitated efforts for a ceasefire and political dialogue have also been targeted by armed groups. Notable cases documented by UN/OHCHR included, but were not limited to, the following: on 13 and 14 February 2015 respectively, Dr. Ali Osta, and Dr. Hadi Ben Taleb of the Libyan Human Rights Commission were abducted by the Shahid Hamza armed group in central Tripoli - both were later released; in February, Entissar al-Hassaeri, a female civil society activist, was killed in Tripoli together with her aunt, Amal Mazdawi. UNSMIL/OHCHR noted that, in some cases, the families of HRDs have also been attacked, abducted or threatened.

Extremist groups, including those affiliated to ISIL, have increased their foothold in Libya and have claimed control over the coastal towns of Dernah and Sirte. A series of savage attacks by extremists took place during the reporting period. In January at least 9 people, including 5 foreign nationals, were killed in a terrorist attack on an international hotel in Tripoli. In February, ISIL-affiliated terrorists claimed responsibility for the abduction and beheadings of 21 Coptic Christians, prompting retaliatory air strikes on Dernah by Egypt. In February, nine were killed in an attack at Mabruk oilfield southeast of Sirte, and three oil workers were kidnapped. On 6 March, terrorists killed eight oil workers and kidnapped nine workers at Al Ghani oilfield, south east of Tripoli. Car bomb attacks in public areas in Tripoli, Tobruk and Benghazi caused many casualties. In April 2015, two groups of Ethiopian Christians were executed by ISIL in Libya in two locations.

Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch reported that civilians were increasingly bearing the brunt of reprisal attacks as violence in Libya escalated. UNSMIL/OHCHR’s report documented the dangers faced by HRDs in Derna, dominated by extremist armed groups, including Ansar al Sharia, Abu Salim Martyrs, and groups claiming allegiance to ISIL. The UN, NGOs, and the media reported summary executions by a Sharia “court” in Dernah, and killings of security officials and current and former civil servants including judges, HRDs, media workers, and a female member of the General National Congress.

In the South, fighting between Tuareg and Tebu armed groups continued. Armed militias, mostly from Misrata, continued to prevent about 40,000 residents of Tawergha, Tomina, and Karareem from returning to their homes as a form of collective punishment for crimes allegedly committed by some Tawergha residents during the 2011 revolution. Those displaced continued to seek safety and shelter in makeshift camps and private housing in many areas, but they remained subject to attack, harassment, and arbitrary detention by the militias. Libyan authorities and militia commanders failed to end the attacks or hold those responsible to account.

The condition of prisons and treatment of prisoners under the jurisdiction of the different sides in the conflict remained a serious concern throughout this period. HRDs continued to report arbitrary detentions, mistreatment, torture and extrajudicial killings in detention centres on all sides.
https://www.gov.uk/government/public...date-july-2015

Planning a holiday to the safe and lovely country of Libya later this year?
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Old August 28th, 2015, 10:12 PM   #39
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I dunno. I am not even sure why there are accomodations or these kinds of migrant-camps... can't they figure this out on their own?
Can't who figure this out on their own? The asylum seekers? How? Imagine you've left your country with almost none of your possessions, you've got almost no money left, you've left your home, your job, your business, your family, your friends, you may be travelling with young children, you may be ill, you may be pregnant - are you going to be in a position to figure out your own accommodation?

There's a war on in Syria. A war that several European states bear a large degree of responsibility for, not just the ones that invaded Iraq but also the ones that have sold military equipment to dictatorial regimes (I'm looking at you Germany). If you help to create a mess you should help to deal with its consequences.

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Or is the lack of legal legitimacy giving them problems to find employment, etc to support themselves?
Obviously. If you don't have a legal right to work in a country, it's pretty hard to find employment. And if you do it's probably going to be some crappy job that nobody local is prepared to do and you'll get paid peanuts for hours of hard work, if you're not ripped off and paid nothing at all - what are you going to do if that happens? Go to the police?

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Originally Posted by Kanadzie View Post
The thing that is most bothering me about the situation is how they are going on boats that clearly can't make the trip and then need rescue... they are paying good money for the trip... can't they manage to use at least a boat that floats?!
Most of the boats make it to shore without problems. The media reports about the ones that don't make it or where overcrowding leads to deaths.

I don't think someone fleeing war or a dictatorship or the madhouse that Libya has become has too much of a choice about their boat.

I don't think there's a Customer Service Department for People Smugglers Inc. that you can complain to.
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Old August 28th, 2015, 10:31 PM   #40
Kanadzie
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ah but why should those taxpayers pay to support them? I can see the point of "not harming" but providing material aid?
Nobody gave anything to anyone in 1945-1946, even British were catching Jews on decent boats to Israel and locking them up in Malta or whatever (ridiculous)

Maybe need to stop hindering (paperworks, etc) so they can just pay 900 Euro for a KLM flight instead of 9 000 Euro for the sinking boat... but how long until one shows up on a train to Paris that doesn't have Capitaine Amerique to save the day?

If the people were able to make it they are clearly smart enough and not lazy enough to support themselves easily in a good country if we let them... and I think it would solve a large part (the money one, not the islamification one) of the "grogne" in the EU countries about the whole thing.

It is all kind of amusing and absurd to observe from here in my area probably one of the most diverse / immigranted areas of the world (Toronto) where people from everywhere live and work together without any frictions of any kind, with the most direct benefit being good food to eat as well. LOL
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Last edited by Kanadzie; August 28th, 2015 at 10:39 PM.
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