daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Highways & Autobahns

Highways & Autobahns All about automobility



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Closed Thread

 
Thread Tools
Old August 28th, 2015, 11:42 PM   #41
Eulanthe
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,228
Likes (Received): 411

Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
Even if there are no border controls between Schengen members, in most border crossings you can still see the remain of former border facilities. How many important border crossings (motorways, expressways, main roads), were opened after both countries joined Schengen and thus the border is marked only by signs?
Of course the motorway between Slovenia and Hungary, probably some motorways between Germany and Poland or Spain and Portugal. Anything else?

(trying to keep this thread on topic before it will be locked or deleted...)
(talking about PL-D)

On the Polish A6 and A4, the autobahn crossings were almost totally reconstructed. There might be some tell-tale signs left such as old fences, but in general, there's nothing there. This was on the German side.

On the DK18/A18 and A2 crossings, the crossings are still very much in evidence. Olszyna in particular is a mess - I was there a few weeks ago and I can't even begin to explain how horrific it is. Those crossings are on the PL side. Obviously - for Poland - the local authorities wanted to exploit the old border crossings for cash, while Germany transformed theirs into rest areas. It makes sense - these border towns are often very poor places, and while Germany could afford to subsidise theirs, the same doesn't apply for Poland.

Anyway, thinking about it...

The Polish/Czech A1/D1 crossing is *almost* without any evidence, but there's an area at the border where the police can sit. It's only enough for one police car, so presumably it's rather to seal off the border rather than for conducting random checks.

Speaking of this, does anyone know if there has been any change at Nickelsdorf on the A/H border? I'd really like to go back and photograph the area some more...
Eulanthe no está en línea  

Sponsored Links
Old August 29th, 2015, 12:02 AM   #42
Attus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Rheinbach
Posts: 2,770
Likes (Received): 1039

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eulanthe View Post
Speaking of this, does anyone know if there has been any change at Nickelsdorf on the A/H border? I'd really like to go back and photograph the area some more...
Some very slight modifications to let traffic go through in 2×2 lanes, nothing more. There are some very sharp curves, the speed limit is 60 km/h.
Attus no está en línea  
Old August 29th, 2015, 12:43 AM   #43
Eulanthe
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,228
Likes (Received): 411

Quote:
Originally Posted by Attus View Post
Some very slight modifications to let traffic go through in 2×2 lanes, nothing more. There are some very sharp curves, the speed limit is 60 km/h.
Thank you!

I actually had a nightmare about the old Hegyeshalom customs hall a while ago. I was taking pictures there a few years ago, and there was a rather creepy clock that had stopped while the building looked abandoned rather than simply closed. Of course, the nightmare involved being locked inside and not being able to escape
Eulanthe no está en línea  
Old August 29th, 2015, 01:42 AM   #44
italystf
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 6,460
Likes (Received): 2186

Quote:
Originally Posted by marmurr1916 View Post
Why? Do you think that asylum seekers shouldn't concern themselves with quality of life for themselves and their children? If you had children would you be content to live in a terrible refugee camp in Greece with no proper educational facilities for your children or would you do your best to get them to a country where you believed they might be able to create a good future for themselves?

If you've taken the drastic decision to leave your own country, leaving behind most of your possessions, leaving behind any property you own, never knowing when you'd be able to return, or if you might be forced to return when it's still unsafe, the least you're going to do is to try to gain refugee status in the country that you think is most likely to provide a safe refuge for you and your children, especially since some countries have a much higher rate of acceptance of claims for asylum than other countries.

For example, the UK rejects most claims for asylum whereas Sweden accepts most claims for asylum.

In addition, Germany has now waived the 'Dublin Regulation' requirement for asylum seekers, so the rule that asylum seekers should seek refuge in the first safe country they come to no longer applies to anyone seeking asylum in Germany.

Then there's the simple fact that conditions in many of the first countries that asylum seekers arrive in are so poor, massive overcrowding in camps, lack of proper refugee housing, no proper refugee healthcare etc etc, that they are no longer considered safe countries in which to seek asylum by the European Court of Human Rights.

Are you sure that Greece, Italy, Romania, Bulgaria and Hungary meet the definition of 'safe' countries?

Because the European Court of Human Rights doesn't, at least not for Greece or Italy. And the general principles of its rulings in the relevant cases apply to all countries that are parties to the European Convention on Human Rights, including Romania, Bulgaria and Hungary.

The European Court of Human Rights has previously ruled that refugees who left Greece for another EU country (Belgium, but the principle applies to all EU countries) couldn't be sent back to Greece because conditions for asylum seekers in Greece were so bad that their human rights couldn't be guaranteed in Greece (M.S.S v Belgium and Greece).

It has also ruled that conditions in Italy are so bad that Switzerland (also in Schengen, not in the EU) cannot deport a family of Afghan asylum seekers back to Italy:



http://ecre.org/component/content/ar...uarantees.html

Your opinion that 'if they are really asylum seekers they should accept asylum anywhere' is not shared by the European Court of Human Rights (ECtHR). it's just your opinion, not a statement of the law like the ECtHR rulings are.

There is no legal obligation on asylum seekers to accept asylum 'anywhere'.

They are allowed to seek asylum in the first safe country they come to. And since the ECtHR has ruled that conditions in Greece and Italy are so poor that they could violate the human rights of asylum seekers, they can no longer be considered safe countries.

I doubt that Hungary, Romania or Bulgaria or any of the Balkan states would be considered safe countries either because they wouldn't be able to provide facilities for asylum seekers that are any better than the poor conditions provided in Greece and Italy.
The fact that Italy is not considered a safe country for migrants makes me laughing.
When asylum seekers (either real or wannabe) arrive here they get every sort of privileges: free food, clothes, free phone calls, wifi and even cigarettes for those who smoke! While the place they live may not be a five-star hotel, they receive privileges that a poor and unemployed Italian citizen can only dream about! Nevertheless, some of those immigrants became very aggressive, refuse the food they get for free and vandalize facilities. Some of them like living here because of the privileges they get, but at the same time they hate Western culture and have aggressive behaviors against people with different culture or religion. So, the bad situation in some acceptance facilities is also aggravated by the antisocial behavior of their guests. Italy is very tolerant towards immigration, because both of the political correctness culture and EU treaties on refugees. We go to rescue immigrants' boats well outside our territorial sea, almost to the African coast. And when they arrive here we can't send them back because there could be asylum seekers in the boat. Imagine what will happen if those immigrants would land in the USA or Australia,...
Another big problem is that Italian justice really sucks and penal sentences are almost never respected. A murderer gets 30 years but after 15 years go out for "good behavior in prison". A thief sentenced 2 years goes out after a couple of months because our prisons are full (actually thieves rarely go to jail at all, because when a petty crime is reported, police simply takes note of the event without conducting any investigation, so the thief will continue to steal). And "asylum-seekers" who make extra-money by stealing or selling drugs are everyday news.
I don't know the situation of Greece, Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria, they are poor countries for EU standard but they are safe too and are in a much better situation than pre-war Iraq and Syria, where most refugees used to live.
__________________
“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.

Corvinus, darko06 liked this post

Last edited by italystf; August 29th, 2015 at 01:51 AM.
italystf no está en línea  
Old August 29th, 2015, 01:55 AM   #45
italystf
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 6,460
Likes (Received): 2186

Quote:
Originally Posted by marmurr1916 View Post
The vast majority, over 4 million, of people who've fled Syria have gone to neighbouring countries (Turkey, Lebanon, Jordan) or Egypt. If you look at global asylum figures you'll see that the vast majority of people who leave African countries go to other African countries and the vast majority of people who leave Asian countries go to other Asian countries. The West in general, and Europe in particular, receive only a small proportion of all the asylum seekers in the world.
This is something our media like to forget, indeed. It appears that they only try to invade us, while in reality it isn't true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by marmurr1916 View Post
You can't move from one EU country to another if you're granted asylum. A grant of asylum in Greece does not allow you to live in another EU country, only in Greece.

And, as I've posted above, the European Court of Human Rights has ruled that just because a country is in the EU doesn't mean it should be assumed to be a safe country for asylum seekers.
This is a big fault of the Schengen system. One has the right to stay only within a country, but this isn't practically enforceable due to uncontrolled movement between different countries.
__________________
“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
italystf no está en línea  
Old August 29th, 2015, 02:06 AM   #46
italystf
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 6,460
Likes (Received): 2186

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanadzie View Post
I would want to say persecution only coming from the state is an issue, and surely in EU this is not happening (now, not before!)
Well, I guess that residents in territories controlled by ISIS, Boko Haram or Somali Islamic courts are likely to be considered legitimate asylum seekers. Even if those prosecutions are perpetrated by a paralilitary/terroristic group an not by an entity considered a state, it's clear that those people need to flee their homeland in order to feel safe.
__________________
“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
italystf no está en línea  
Old August 29th, 2015, 02:11 AM   #47
italystf
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 6,460
Likes (Received): 2186

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanadzie View Post
The thing that is most bothering me about the situation is how they are going on boats that clearly can't make the trip and then need rescue... they are paying good money for the trip... can't they manage to use at least a boat that floats?!
Those trips are organized by mafiosi-like human traffickers, that have absolutely no interest for the destiny of those poor people, after they have gotten the money. They use very old boats that they don't care to get back, because they would have been take to the scrapyard anyway.
__________________
“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
italystf no está en línea  
Old August 29th, 2015, 02:19 AM   #48
italystf
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 6,460
Likes (Received): 2186

Quote:
Originally Posted by marmurr1916 View Post
There's a war on in Syria. A war that several European states bear a large degree of responsibility for, not just the ones that invaded Iraq but also the ones that have sold military equipment to dictatorial regimes (I'm looking at you Germany). If you help to create a mess you should help to deal with its consequences.
I agree. USA and Europe have big responsibility for the bad situation in the 3rd world. First with colonialism, later with the neocolonialism (economical imperialism) and the political\military intervention in favor of any regime (doesn't matter how evil) that was anti-commie, anti-Russian, anti-Islamic,... and the oppression towards regimes hostiles to the USA.
__________________
“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
italystf no está en línea  
Old August 29th, 2015, 03:10 AM   #49
Kanadzie
Registered User
 
Kanadzie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 2,377
Likes (Received): 748

is that really true though? USA supported some regimes and opposed others, but the ones opposed... seemed to treat people even worse (e.g. Iran for prime example)
__________________
100 coups de fouet, si vous n'ętes pas morts de rire !
Kanadzie no está en línea  
Old August 29th, 2015, 03:59 AM   #50
sponge_bob
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 3,955
Likes (Received): 2207

Oddly enough Iran is a very safe country for a westerner to travel in. I've been there and found the Iranians to be dead nice overall.

Italysf made a lot of observations on the absurdity of the judgement by the ECHR on the 'safety' of Southern European countries and I agree with the observations ....all of them in fact.

The ECHR compared Italy to Switzerland without bothering at all to compare say Italy to Libya where cynical smugglers pack unsafe boats with women and children, set them off and leave them to die from lack of air down below deck....never mind their ability to reach their 'destination' safely (minus all the dead people down below of course ).

The findings are a nonsense. The worst migrant refuge in Italy is infinitely safer than a Libyan smugglers boat. An open air railway platform in Budapest is safer than a Turkish smugglers inflatable boat heading for Kos or Lesbos.

The ECHR is nothing to do with Schengen all the same.

Last edited by sponge_bob; August 29th, 2015 at 04:04 AM.
sponge_bob no está en línea  
Old August 29th, 2015, 12:44 PM   #51
italystf
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 6,460
Likes (Received): 2186

Quote:
Originally Posted by sponge_bob View Post
The ECHR is nothing to do with Schengen all the same.
Of course. Unlikely most people think, the ECHR is not related with European Union, but with the Council of Europe, that includes 47 countries (basically the whole continent, including Caucasus but excluding Belarus).
__________________
“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
italystf no está en línea  
Old August 29th, 2015, 12:52 PM   #52
italystf
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 6,460
Likes (Received): 2186

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanadzie View Post
is that really true though? USA supported some regimes and opposed others, but the ones opposed... seemed to treat people even worse (e.g. Iran for prime example)
Batista's Cuba, Pinochet's Chile, Saddam's Iraq (in the 1980s, against Iran), talibans' Afghanistan (in the 1980s, against USSR), and today Saudi Arabia, Qatar (sponsor of ISIS), Israel (one of the few countries that is illegally occupying a foreign territory), and many others. Those regimes aren't/weren't more human than Iran since 1979, Cuba since 1959 and probably even post-Stalin USSR.
Not to mention what Europeans did in their colonies before WWII. If a country had been exploited and terrorized for decades, it has a fertile ground for extremist movements, dictatorships and guerrillas.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sponge_bob View Post
Oddly enough Iran is a very safe country for a westerner to travel in. I've been there and found the Iranians to be dead nice overall.
It's true, but here in Europe if you say that you are going to Iran, probably 90% of people will think that you are crazy to go to a war zone. Maybe due to ignorance, or even because they confuse it with Iraq.
__________________
“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.

Alex_ZR liked this post

Last edited by italystf; August 29th, 2015 at 12:58 PM.
italystf no está en línea  
Old August 29th, 2015, 01:02 PM   #53
antonBJM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 5
Likes (Received): 2

GREAT
antonBJM no está en línea  
Old August 29th, 2015, 03:05 PM   #54
Eulanthe
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,228
Likes (Received): 411

Actually, the thing that scares me most right now is that Schengen has been proven to have a very very soft external border. The whole idea of Schengen was that while internal controls would be abolished, the external border was supposed to be considerably tougher as a result.

For instance, controls on the PL-UA/BY/RU borders are tough - you simply won't cross there without showing all the relevant documentation for the car on the PL side. Yet - isn't this a complete farce when 800,000 migrants are due to turn up this year alone in Germany?
Eulanthe no está en línea  
Old August 29th, 2015, 03:48 PM   #55
Le Clerk
AUTOBANN.ED
 
Le Clerk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 35,482
Likes (Received): 12053

Exactly! And to that the fact that Schengen was denied for years for România and Bulgaria because they are not able to defend the EU borders .
__________________
Rebuilding Bucharest's History: Lipscani Area |Victoriei Ave. | Elisabeta Bld.
Yes, it's Dracula's Castle
Best picture collection of UNESCO sites in Romania
Castles and Mansions in Romania
Le Clerk no está en línea  
Old August 30th, 2015, 12:35 AM   #56
marmurr1916
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 167
Likes (Received): 104

Quote:
Originally Posted by sponge_bob View Post
Italysf made a lot of observations on the absurdity of the judgement by the ECHR on the 'safety' of Southern European countries and I agree with the observations ....all of them in fact.
Unless you're a judge of the ECtHR your agreement with italysf is pretty much irrelevant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sponge_bob View Post
The ECHR compared Italy to Switzerland without bothering at all to compare say Italy to Libya where cynical smugglers pack unsafe boats with women and children, set them off and leave them to die from lack of air down below deck....never mind their ability to reach their 'destination' safely (minus all the dead people down below of course ).

The findings are a nonsense. The worst migrant refuge in Italy is infinitely safer than a Libyan smugglers boat. An open air railway platform in Budapest is safer than a Turkish smugglers inflatable boat heading for Kos or Lesbos.
So what? Did the Afghan family face a choice between Italy and a Libyan smuggler's boat? No. They faced a choice between Switzerland a refugee centre in Italy which the court ruled dangerous to the extent that returning them to Italy would have violated their human rights.

The ECtHR was right to compare one European country with another and not to compare one European country with a non-European country. Its job is to enforce human rights law in Europe, not outside of Europe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sponge_bob View Post
ECHR is nothing to do with Schengen all the same.
The ECtHR has jurisdiction over human rights in every member state of the Council of Europe. And since every member state of the Schengen Area is also a member state of the Council of Europe, it effectively has jurisdiction over human rights issues in all the Schengen Area countries.

Although the so-called Dublin Regulation is actually an EU-wide rule rather than a Schengen rule...
marmurr1916 no está en línea  
Old August 30th, 2015, 12:37 AM   #57
marmurr1916
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 167
Likes (Received): 104

Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
Of course. Unlikely most people think, the ECHR is not related with European Union, but with the Council of Europe, that includes 47 countries (basically the whole continent, including Caucasus but excluding Belarus).
Every member state of the Schengen Area, whether EU or non-EU, is also a member of the Council of Europe.

The practical effect is that the ECtHR has jurisdiction on human rights issues in the Schengen Area.

Last edited by marmurr1916; August 30th, 2015 at 12:49 AM.
marmurr1916 no está en línea  
Old August 30th, 2015, 12:49 AM   #58
marmurr1916
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 167
Likes (Received): 104

Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
I agree. USA and Europe have big responsibility for the bad situation in the 3rd world. First with colonialism, later with the neocolonialism (economical imperialism) and the political\military intervention in favor of any regime (doesn't matter how evil) that was anti-commie, anti-Russian, anti-Islamic,... and the oppression towards regimes hostiles to the USA.
Very well said. Many European countries, not all, had empires (even Denmark!) and their citizens were free to migrate to their imperial territories. In some cases, so many of them migrated that they became the majority of the population (e.g. Australia, New Zealand). And these colonial migrants generally weren't interested in integrating with the local cultures wherever they ended up. In many cases they actively suppressed the local culture (or at least aspects of it) and attempted to introduce aspects of their own culture, especially religion and language and law.

The idea that Europe should be kept for Europeans when Europeans have been free to not just migrate to countries outside of Europe but completely take them over is a nonsense.

The day the last descendant of European colonists leaves Australia and every other country that Europeans have colonised is the day that Europe can seal its external borders.

And that day is never going to come.
marmurr1916 no está en línea  
Old August 30th, 2015, 02:08 AM   #59
Gedeon
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 11,331
Likes (Received): 12486

Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
Even if there are no border controls between Schengen members, in most border crossings you can still see the remain of former border facilities. How many important border crossings (motorways, expressways, main roads), were opened after both countries joined Schengen and thus the border is marked only by signs?
Of course the motorway between Slovenia and Hungary, probably some motorways between Germany and Poland or Spain and Portugal. Anything else?

(trying to keep this thread on topic before it will be locked or deleted...)
Between Croatia and Hungary there is a minimalistic joint border facility (built even before Croatia joined EU) only on Hungarian side, that will be easily dismantled: https://goo.gl/maps/VCp6l, only for cars and buses.

Trucks go through old Goričan/Letenye border crossing.
Gedeon no está en línea  
Old August 30th, 2015, 04:01 AM   #60
sponge_bob
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 3,955
Likes (Received): 2207

Quote:
Originally Posted by marmurr1916 View Post
Unless you're a judge of the ECtHR your agreement with italysf is pretty much irrelevant.

So what? Did the Afghan family face a choice between Italy and a Libyan smuggler's boat? No.
Well maybe the Tooth Fairy brought them to Italy on their way to Switzerland then. Bad Tooth Fairy.

Quote:
The ECtHR was right to compare one European country with another and not to compare one European country with a non-European country. Its job is to enforce human rights law in Europe, not outside of Europe.

The ECtHR has jurisdiction over human rights in every member state of the Council of Europe. And since every member state of the Schengen Area is also a member state of the Council of Europe, it effectively has jurisdiction over human rights issues in all the Schengen Area countries.
The ECHR is entirely guilty of selective relativism so.

Quote:
Although the so-called Dublin Regulation is actually an EU-wide rule rather than a Schengen rule...
It is not called the Dublin Regulation...BUT it was agreed in Dublin when the Iron Curtain still existed...just about.
sponge_bob no está en línea  


Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 03:04 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium