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Old September 3rd, 2015, 11:31 AM   #101
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In Budapest they cancelled all international trains and THEN reopened the main station to everybody. International tickets are valid on Internal railway services or so they say.

Meanwhile up to 20,000 migrants are now awaiting transport from Lesbos to the Greek Mainland with a further 10,000+ on Kos and Chios.

Travelling light might be OK in an August heatwave but with autumn fast approaching and nighttime and daytime temperatures set to dip notably in 2 weeks or so then travelling light will no longer be a practical option.
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Old September 3rd, 2015, 01:05 PM   #102
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So you can get a train from Budapest to the nearest station to the border with Austria, walk, or get a bus or taxi, across the border, then travel onwards?

An inconvenience but not an insurmountable obstacle.

In the meantime, Angela Merkel has said that Germany will spend billions on helping refugees:

Quote:
Chancellor Angela Merkel said Germany must respond to the European refugee crisis with the same resolve it showed in rescuing banks and her government will spend billions of euros to handle the tide of migrants.

As the migration of people fleeing war and poverty strains Germany’s welcome and sows discord in the European Union, Merkel warned on Monday that the the EU’s passport-free travel zone is at risk. EU governments also shouldn’t discriminate against refugees on the basis of their religion, she said.

While the 28 EU countries have to find joint solutions, Germany has a duty to step up as Europe’s biggest economy and to treat the new arrivals as a potential enrichment for the country’s job market, Merkel told a news conference in Berlin.

“German thoroughness is great, but right now we need German flexibility,” she said. “We have many examples where we showed we can respond. Remember the bank rescues. During the international financial crisis, the federal and state governments pushed through the necessary legislation in a matter of days.”

Merkel said her government will propose a package of legislation by Sept. 24. The goal is to process migrants more quickly to weed out those who don’t qualify for political asylum, while boosting funding for states and municipal governments to handle shelter, food and care for refugees.

“This program will be in the billions,” Merkel said. Without putting a price tag on the package, she said it wouldn’t threaten Germany’s balanced budget.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...e-faces-crisis
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Old September 3rd, 2015, 02:10 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marmurr1916 View Post
I keep hearing how bad the EU is. I keep seeing more and more countries joining and applying to join. I keep seeing more and more people from outside the EU wanting to come and live in the EU.
These people don't want to live in an imaginary EU. They want to live in the richest countries, especially Germany and Sweden which effectively started advertising through the media that they will take pretty much everyone who shows up on their border with some more or less plausible sorry story.

Nobody really want's to go to Slovakia or Poland or Lithuania.

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I keep hearing the EU is falling apart. I keep seeing the EU become ever more integrated.

Forgive me if I choose to accept the reality rather than the commentary.
Which reality? Of dramatically falling living standards in countries like Greece, Italy, Spain or Portugal? Only so Europeans bankers can enjoy their living standards?

EU bureaucratic core (not the idea of the Union which I actually support) is rotten as much as the US federal government is. Short sighted, sailing helplessly from one crisis to another without any long or even mid term strategy.
Unfolding migration drama is only the latest example of that.

Forgive me if I stay sceptical.

Quote:
Yeah, whatever Columbo. From 2008 to beyond 2010 we were being told that the eurozone was going to break up any day. Not only has it survived, but it has expanded, hasn't lost any members and is now more integrated (e.g. fiscal treaty) than it ever was before.
If you read a bit more about this new integration you might realise it is all by virtual money and even more debt. Next crisis will be much, much worse. Maybe not this year, maybe not next, but it will happen.
Euro is currency without a state, without common fiscal policy. It was pushed for political reasons alone. Now south of Europe is paying the price for this brilliant development.

But it is becoming a bit OT, nothing to do with Schengen
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Old September 3rd, 2015, 07:01 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by geogregor View Post
These people don't want to live in an imaginary EU. They want to live in the richest countries, especially Germany and Sweden which effectively started advertising through the media that they will take pretty much everyone who shows up on their border with some more or less plausible sorry story.

Nobody really want's to go to Slovakia or Poland or Lithuania.
So what? They're still going to the EU. When Ireland joined the EEC it was the poorest north-western European country. Now it's one of the wealthiest and it attracts hundreds of thousands of migrants from all over the world. Even today, with high unemployment, more non-Irish people moved into Ireland than left. I know you're somewhat familiar with Ireland but I doubt you have any idea how poor it was 40 years ago compared to its neighbours in north-west Europe or how messed up its economy was between 1980 and the late 1990s (unemployment at 19% in 1991, didn't fall below 10% between 1981 and 1998 - a full 17 years of double-digit unemployment), massive net migration, a debt to GDP ratio of 150% in 1987, etc etc. All before the euro in case you want to blame the single currency.

If anyone in Poland, Slovakia, Lithuania etc thought that EU membership was going to result in instant wealth and an instant increase in living standards to western European levels, of the kind that might attract significant immigration, they were either very stupid or very gullible.

It took Ireland 30 years to begin to catch up with normal western European living standards and Ireland was relatively closer to the EEC average level of wealth (about 63%) when it joined) compared to Poland et al, none of which were close to 50% of the EU average when they joined. It's going to take 40 or more years of EU membership to undo the damage that WWII, Soviet invasion, Comecon etc has done to the economies of eastern and central Europe.

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Originally Posted by geogregor View Post
Which reality? Of dramatically falling living standards in countries like Greece, Italy, Spain or Portugal? Only so Europeans bankers can enjoy their living standards?
What are you on about? Did European bankers create the situation where Greece, to take the most obvious example, spent far much money each year than it was taking in taxes? I didn't hear many Greeks complaining about being loaned money by banks when they were expanding the Athens Metro or hosting the Olympics, or being hired in their tens of thousands as political appointees to public sector jobs. I guess the bankers should have refused to loan any money to Greece ever. Although then we would have had Greeks complaining about discrimination by northern European bankers...

The alternative for those countries, not to borrow money at all (or to borrow it at higher interest rates than if they were outside the euro), or not to repay the money they borrowed, would have had a much greater impact on their living standards. Do you think that all the new roads, motorways, railways, airports, schools and hospitals in those countries would have been built if they hadn't been able to borrow money? Do you think that austerity would have been easier if their ability to borrow or to fund their deficits had been suddenly removed after default?

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Originally Posted by geogregor View Post
EU bureaucratic core (not the idea of the Union which I actually support) is rotten as much as the US federal government is.
An organisation that employs about 25,000 full-time employees to administer programmes and budgets for a population of 500 million people sounds like a pretty efficient one to me. Maybe you'd prefer it to reach Comecon levels of efficiency instead? When criticising the EU it's always helpful to compare it to other organisations with a similar role.

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Originally Posted by geogregor View Post
Short sighted, sailing helplessly from one crisis to another without any long or even mid term strategy.
There's no real excuse for this ill-informed nonsense given that the EU publishes all of its short-term, medium-term and long-term aims and objectives on its websites and that its aims and objectives are set out clearly in the EU treaties.

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Originally Posted by geogregor View Post
Unfolding migration drama is only the latest example of that.
The fact that millions of people want to come to live in Europe, and many are willing to risk death to get to Europe, proves that Europe is a horrible place?

Quote:
Originally Posted by geogregor View Post
Forgive me if I stay sceptical.
And forgive me if I remind you that the EU is by far the most successful of the international economic organisations or regional collections of states with an economic purpose and/or integration purpose. Compared to ASEAN, the African Union or NAFTA, the EU gives the citizens of its member states far more benefits than any of those organisations give.

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Originally Posted by geogregor View Post
If you read a bit more about this new integration you might realise it is all by virtual money and even more debt. Next crisis will be much, much worse. Maybe not this year, maybe not next, but it will happen.
Are you Humphrey Bogart?

The eurozone now has a bailout fund for 19 countries that's bigger than the IMF's bailout fund for 188 countries. What makes you think that it won't respond as effectively to the next global economic crash as it's responded to this one?

And before you sneer at that, try to remember that Spain, Portugal and Ireland are all now growing their economies (Ireland is probably one of the fastest growing economies in the world), their deficits (gap between tax revenue and government spending) are under control, their debts are much more manageable than they were several years ago, unemployment is falling in Ireland and Spain, and Ireland is reversing tax increased and spending cuts. What was the alternative for those countries? To follow the path of Greece, to resist the conditions attached to bailout programmes and to stall reforms as much as possible, eventually making their economies even worse?

Leaving the euro wouldn't have cut their debts, unless they also defaulted on their debts. If they had defaulted they wouldn't have been able to borrow any money to close the gap between taxes and spending. How do you close that gap if you can't borrow money? By increasing taxes and cutting spending, which is what happened to them in the euro.

The huge difference being that in the euro they were able to borrow money at much cheaper rates than they would have been outside the euro, and were loaned money by the IMF and the EZ institutions at much lower interest rates and with far longer repayment terms than any commercial lenders would have offered.

If you think austerity in some EZ states was bad, consider what it would have been like if those states hadn't been able to borrow any money at all and had to close their deficits immediately after a default.

Quote:
Originally Posted by geogregor View Post
Euro is currency without a state, without common fiscal policy. It was pushed for political reasons alone. Now south of Europe is paying the price for this brilliant development.
The southern European states can leave the EU and the euro if they want.

Article 50 of the Treaty on European Union allows any EU member state to leave.

The fact that the majority in all southern European countries want to stay in the EU and keep the euro shows you what most people think of the idea of leaving.

Last edited by marmurr1916; September 3rd, 2015 at 07:30 PM.
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Old September 3rd, 2015, 07:35 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Clerk View Post
France should send buses and take them to France. Germany as well. I do not get it how the 2 expect to find a solution to the problem of massive migration from Asia and Africa into EU when they basically tell them to come over because they will be welcome (Merkel especially). And what do they expect the millions or tens of millions of potential migrant people in Asia and Africa to do when they already considering fleeing areas of wars, famine and other human disasters?! This kind of populist attitude will destroy Schengen and possibly even more than Schengen .
Populist attitude? In what way is encouraging refugees to come to Germany populist?
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Old September 3rd, 2015, 08:31 PM   #106
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Ok, it's all fantastic.
Brilliant, glorious, EU is going to save the world

I was tempted to write response similar to yours, pointing and quoting but then I realised that I have life outside the SSC. Let's agree to disagree and see what is going to happen in the near future

Anyway, we should concentrate on Schengen in this thread.
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Old September 3rd, 2015, 10:20 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by geogregor View Post
Ok, it's all fantastic.
Brilliant, glorious, EU is going to save the world
Greece announced today that they will sort something out with the migrants coming in. BUT they need €700m of EU money first!
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Old September 4th, 2015, 05:15 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geogregor View Post
Ok, it's all fantastic.
Brilliant, glorious, EU is going to save the world
Grow up.

The EU does what it aims to do pretty well and it does it far better than any similar organisations with similar aims.

That's the only claim I made.

If you're looking for utopia you're on the wrong planet.
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Old September 4th, 2015, 05:44 PM   #109
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......
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Old September 4th, 2015, 06:22 PM   #110
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Since the cancellation of all trains between Hungary and Austria, thousands of refugees are now walking from Budapest to the Austrian border.
Many pics here.

Those images reminds the fall of the Berlin wall with all people escaping towards West.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old September 4th, 2015, 06:32 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by italystf View Post
Since the cancellation of all trains between Hungary and Austria, thousands of refugees are now walking from Budapest to the Austrian border.
Many pics here.

Those images reminds the fall of the Berlin wall with all people escaping towards West.
The Berlin Wall fell after thousands of Refugees walked from Hungary into Austria in the two months prior to it falling. Starting from early September 1989 if I recall.
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Old September 4th, 2015, 07:18 PM   #112
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indeed

so... what wall will fall now?
Certainly no wall can be put up against a flow of people like that.
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Old September 4th, 2015, 09:14 PM   #113
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so... what wall will fall now?
Schengen?
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old September 4th, 2015, 10:21 PM   #114
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The refugees whom are walking to Wien via M1 motorway are now close to Herceghalom. If they will continue like that it will take few days to reach the border at Hegyeshalom.
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Old September 4th, 2015, 10:30 PM   #115
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Slovakia is much closer. Would Slovakia let them cross the border and bring them to the Austrian border?
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Which new motorways are currently under construction?
Which new motorways will be opened next?

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Old September 4th, 2015, 10:35 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
Slovakia is much closer. Would Slovakia let them cross the border and bring them to the Austrian border?
It looks like our government starts to play chicken game with Austria, they will provide free transport for the refugees whom are not in the camps. All of them will be transported to the austrian-hungarian border, and if they want they can walk to Austria.
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Old September 4th, 2015, 10:40 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
Slovakia is much closer. Would Slovakia let them cross the border and bring them to the Austrian border?
I think there's a high possibility of Hungary blocking them close to the border, to be honest. This whole situation is just exceptionally stupid, and I can't see any reasonable way out of it. If Hungary lets them go, Schengen is proven to be worthless. If Hungary doesn't let them go, they will refuse all attempts to be registered in Hungary. I could see them living for months in a makeshift campsite close to the Austrian border at this rate.

I wonder if the migrant flows won't change towards HR->SLO->A now, though?
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Old September 4th, 2015, 10:40 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by vespafrederic View Post
All of them will be transported to the austrian-hungarian border
So, why do they still walk?
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Old September 4th, 2015, 10:42 PM   #119
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All the trouble in Hungary just because EU is too lazy to keep them in EU...........
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Which new motorways are currently under construction?
Which new motorways will be opened next?

See 'New motorway projects' thread

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Old September 4th, 2015, 10:47 PM   #120
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So, why do they still walk?
Because that decision was made 20 minutes ago Our government says it is better to transport them, as now the motorway and rail connection between Wien and Budapest is blocked.
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