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Old September 5th, 2015, 05:59 PM   #141
marmurr1916
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Originally Posted by Kanadzie View Post
Because they`d end up shot at the border fence...
Exactly. On the one hand we have people criticising the EU for not doing enough but ignoring the fact that all of the rich countries close to Syria haven't taken any refugees.

On the other hand we have a bunch of increasingly xenophobic posters on this forum who completely ignore historical facts such as Europeans migrating to wherever they pleased and Europeans being the largest groups of refugees the world has ever seen immediately after WWII.

I wonder how many of the posters on this forum have parents or grandparents who were once refugees? Or maybe some of the posters on this forum had parents or grandparents who were the cause of people seeking refuge...
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Old September 5th, 2015, 06:39 PM   #142
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Because they`d end up shot at the border fence...
I doubt they would be shot right away, but for sure these countries do not tolerate any mass influx of illegal immigrants / border violators. They'd simply not allow them to cross in.

Interesting that these wealthy Gulf states somehow don't want to shelter refugees of a similar cultural background (Syrians, Afghans, etc.). Are they afraid of them, while at the same time everybody expects the EU - including member states under economic duress - to receive them en masse?
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Old September 5th, 2015, 06:48 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by marmurr1916 View Post
Refugees have a legal right to cross any borders without permission or documents in search of asylum.

Do you think most of the Hungarian refugees who walked across the border into Austria in 1956 had the right papers?

How quickly we forgot that Europeans were once the largest group of refugees in the world.
First: police should first ensure that they are all real refugees before leaving them free.
Second: Greece is not the country from where those refugees come from to avoid a prosecution (like it was Hungary in 1956), it's just a transit country. Once they're in Greece they should be identified either recognized as refugees and given asylum in an European country or expelled if they don't meet requirements for asylum. They shouldn't be let roaming across S-E Europe without any control. In Greece nobody is going to shoot them, so they don't need to escape quickly using illegal routes and paying big money to human smugglers.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old September 5th, 2015, 07:00 PM   #144
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On the other hand we have a bunch of increasingly xenophobic posters on this forum who completely ignore historical facts such as Europeans migrating to wherever they pleased and Europeans being the largest groups of refugees the world has ever seen immediately after WWII.
Those who left Europe after WWII weren't refugees but economical migrants. Those who left during the war, instead, were refuges.
In 1946 Italy most people were dirty poor bacause of the destruction, like in a Indian slum today. But people in 1946 Italy or 2015 India weren't likely to be killed or tortured every day, unlikely in 1944 Italy or 2015 Syria. That's the legal difference between migrant and refugee.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old September 5th, 2015, 07:04 PM   #145
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Okay, I haven't been around here much lately, haven't read the whole thread, and am not taking sides on Europe's response*, but I have been following this on the news (BBC, New York Times, TV5 Monde...) and I have a factual question. A couple of questions, actually:

1) Does a refugee who's legally in a Schengen country - say, someone who's arrived in Greece, been registered as a refugee, whatever it takes to establish legal status - have the same right to travel to (and settle in?) other Schengen countries that a citizen of a Schengen country does, or is he expected to stay in that first country? (I heard the term "Schengen visa" in a news report the other day; don't remember the context and I'm not clear what that means.)

2) For that matter, what happens to refugees long-term (or what's supposed to happen)? If Syria becomes safe a few years in the future, are Syrian refugees living elsewhere expected to go back?

Any reasonably fact-based answers are interesting.

*And before anyone yells at me about the U.S. response, I do believe we could be doing more, others are starting to say so here and in Canada, and at any rate, I'm not a State Department or White House spokesman.

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Old September 5th, 2015, 07:10 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by Corvinus View Post
I doubt they would be shot right away, but for sure these countries do not tolerate any mass influx of illegal immigrants / border violators. They'd simply not allow them to cross in.

Interesting that these wealthy Gulf states somehow don't want to shelter refugees of a similar cultural background (Syrians, Afghans, etc.). Are they afraid of them, while at the same time everybody expects the EU - including member states under economic duress - to receive them en masse?
Gulf countries have a really stong racist / xenophobic element, the society ends up structured something like
1. natives
(a very large space)
2. expatriate European / American infidels
3. other Arabs from other countries
4. Southeast Asian gastarbeiters
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Old September 5th, 2015, 08:45 PM   #147
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1) Does a refugee who's legally in a Schengen country - say, someone who's arrived in Greece, been registered as a refugee, whatever it takes to establish legal status - have the same right to travel to (and settle in?) other Schengen countries that a citizen of a Schengen country does, or is he expected to stay in that first country? (I heard the term "Schengen visa" in a news report the other day; don't remember the context and I'm not clear what that means.)
From what I remember, it depends very much on the country. Poland for instance issues documents that aren't valid for crossing internal Schengen borders, but other countries might do so. I seem to remember that France was highly annoyed with Italy for handing out documents that allowed them to cross the internal borders.

In theory, what should happen is that they should be issued documents should only allow them to stay in one country. If they're caught attempting to cross the internal borders, it should be immediate arrest and internment until their host country becomes safe. In reality, countries such as Poland are issuing documents and then turning a blind eye as they go to Germany. As they have valid Polish documents, Poland would be called upon to return them to Poland if they're caught working illegally.

Quote:
2) For that matter, what happens to refugees long-term (or what's supposed to happen)? If Syria becomes safe a few years in the future, are Syrian refugees living elsewhere expected to go back?
Yes, pretty much. The problem is that it's very easy for them to vanish, and in many places (for example, Berlin) - they would be highly unlikely to arouse any attention from the police as long as they don't misbehave.

What should happen is that they get a letter informing them that their stay is being terminated, and they would be repatriated to Syria. They will be given a certain amount of time to do so, and there would inevitably be an appeals process.
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Old September 5th, 2015, 11:39 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
2) For that matter, what happens to refugees long-term (or what's supposed to happen)? If Syria becomes safe a few years in the future, are Syrian refugees living elsewhere expected to go back?
It depends on the coutry where they are taken in. For example Germany has a deep lack of human resources, this nation is happy for Syrians coming here (OK, not every one, but politicians and the leaders of economy for sure, and the majority of population, too). The German government want to integrate them in the German society (avoiding the mistakes that were made 40-50 years ago when Turks came here) and expects that they will never leave Germany again.
In other nations which may have a lack of houses and have a high unemployment, the expectations may differ heavily.
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Old September 6th, 2015, 12:03 AM   #149
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For example Germany has a deep lack of human resources, this nation is happy for Syrians coming here (OK, not every one, but politicians and the leaders of economy for sure, and the majority of population, too).
Well, not everyone: This year has seen a sharply increased number of attacks on asylum hostels in Germany, many of them perpetrated by right-wing extremists. Officials are concerned that neo-Nazi networks may be spreading across the country.

But there's also... http://www.aktion-arschloch.de/ ("mission *******" against xenophobia)

Germany, in this late summer of 2015, can be a confusing place. There are migrants in uniform who have to protect the chancellor, herself from East Germany, from an eastern German mob.
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Old September 6th, 2015, 02:53 AM   #150
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There was considerable coverage on TV this afternoon (evening your time) of refugees being welcomed in Munich. Rather heartwarming.

to Germany.
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Old September 6th, 2015, 12:36 PM   #151
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Schengen is already dead!! how is possible that people without passports,crossing over borders without any identity?? Who are they?? They cross over green line,without any control..That system must crash!!
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Old September 6th, 2015, 07:45 PM   #152
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Is there any reason for my post to have been deleted?

It's very annoying in the end when we can't even speak of European HISTORY without being censored.
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Old September 6th, 2015, 07:50 PM   #153
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why was my post removed??

I spoke about why those people want to go only to germany, ignoring dozens of peaceful countries on their way?

and why must I, when I want to travel to the EU with serbian papers, show my passport, proof of funds/return ticket/hotel reservation - but those people cross the border wherever they want and without any documents???
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Old September 6th, 2015, 10:29 PM   #154
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...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aj9VArxREqY
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Old September 6th, 2015, 11:04 PM   #155
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why was my post removed??

I spoke about why those people want to go only to germany, ignoring dozens of peaceful countries on their way?
Wouldn't you go to Germany or England too if you are already on the way? Especially if you are starting in a place like Hungary.
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and why must I, when I want to travel to the EU with serbian papers, show my passport, proof of funds/return ticket/hotel reservation - but those people cross the border wherever they want and without any documents???
because they are being chased with sword-wielding beheading aficionados
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Old September 6th, 2015, 11:05 PM   #156
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Video about the past days from Hungary.

https://youtu.be/l5ForZ3cr6Q
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Old September 6th, 2015, 11:21 PM   #157
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Wouldn't you go to Germany or England too if you are already on the way? Especially if you are starting in a place like Hungary.
maybe I would, but not by braking multiple laws!
and even if I try to do as they do - I would get arrested....

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because they are being chased with sword-wielding beheading aficionados
really? I was unaware of those aficionados in turkey for example...
and if they are really running away from beheading aficionados, it will be a "mission complete" for them when they reach first safe country?
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Old September 6th, 2015, 11:28 PM   #158
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even Turks prefer to stay in Germany than in Turkei, so I cannot blame them either The gasoline is the most expensive in the world, who could accept it? The coffee is good and so is the kebap but you can get just as good in Dortmund.

But Turkey is somewhat infested with the Daesh already, and now the idiotic Kurdish/Turkey "smouldering war" is coming back again. Turkey is playing a dangerous game with Daesh IMO and it will go for them as Taliban did for the Pakistanis.

We have to admit that the "first safe country" issue is being blown hot and cold and I don't think we can expect people to use this
Especially in Hungarian case... "we don't want any refugees, Muslims go out!" then no trains to leave, then, OK free bus to Oesterreich
But even in Greek, Bulgarian or Italian case... the official and popular attitude isn't a "welcome" one at all.
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Old September 6th, 2015, 11:37 PM   #159
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off course it isn't, how can it be when those people are arrogantly ignoring laws and institutions?
and even if, for example in hungary, official and popular attitude really was "welcome" - they would still move on towards germany.....and we all know why!

turks prefer to stay in germany rather than in turkey?
then why are ~70milion turks still in turkey, shoudn't they be on their way to germany to?
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Old September 7th, 2015, 12:15 AM   #160
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and why must I, when I want to travel to the EU with serbian papers, show my passport, proof of funds/return ticket/hotel reservation - but those people cross the border wherever they want and without any documents???
This is the total absurdity of Schengen. We're spending so much money on border controls, on sophisticated border crossings and so on - yet as soon as a group of people decide "right, let's cross this border", no-one is doing anything.

There's something absolutely wrong with this - either we should guard Schengen borders properly, or we ditch the entire thing.
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