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Old December 31st, 2015, 04:57 AM   #61
desertpunk
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Postwar icon? Maybe, but hardly on the level of the Socony Mobil Tower.

666 Fifth


https://www.flickr.com/photos/ericinsf/


Socony Mobil


IWalked New York City's Socony-Mobil Building by IWalked Audio Tours, on Flickr


To be sure, 666 Fifth should remain unless its replacement is architecturally significant. There's a good chance of that here if Hadid can finally design a skyscraper that equals her amazing low and midrise designs.
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Old December 31st, 2015, 05:00 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Undershaft View Post
Don't be ridiculous ! While Zaha's Melbourne tower is heinous, 2 WTC is a stunner and is acclaimed by architects and critics.


Nothing better than a perpetually falling building on a spot where a building actually fell.
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Old December 31st, 2015, 05:52 AM   #63
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Let's try and keep this thread about 666 5th.
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Old December 31st, 2015, 08:10 AM   #64
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In case something better follows up, a loss won't be that bad. But still, there are more non-descript buildings that could go before. Wishful thinking, but not always.

Anyway, Manhattan could be much more beautiful nowadays with more of the grand mansions left. They would also transport more sunlight to the streets. Large swathes of Midtown are overly built-up and obstructed, it's not that pleasant anymore. Impressive, but certainly not such a nice place to spend some time in the streets. It feels like walking at the bottom of the canyon, while we all know it's much more pleasant to walk atop or in the mid-range.
While I understand where you're coming from, that's not really the point of Midtown. My philosophy is cram the most you can into a single spot to preserve other areas where density isn't a key component of the area. If you spread everything out, you'll eventually find yourselves building on top of priceless relics of historic architecture.

Midtown's first and foremost function should be centralizing development and pushing the density into a singular area so the rest of Manhattan can benefit as a whole.
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Old December 31st, 2015, 09:36 AM   #65
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There was no need to raze all the old mansions in midtown really. With some thoughtful planning they could have built most of the office space around the gems, more towards the edges of the island. They could have at least left some avenues untouched. It is just a shame to see such old beauty destroyed for blander buildings.
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Old December 31st, 2015, 09:49 AM   #66
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There was no need to raze all the old mansions in midtown really.
But this isn't how developing and growing cities work. To think so goes against the very economic and land principles that govern how cities grow. We have to just accept that parts of history might be lost, BUT not all of it. That's what makes NYC great. You can find 160+ years of history ranging from various schools of architecture. Different styles, cultural influences, and so on. We must give the 21st Century a chance. This city is not reserved for just the achievements of those in the 19th and early 20th Century, but for all.

In terms of low rises with historical significant, I can tell you this. If they are not land marked, they will be gone in the years to come. This is happening as we speak btw. Land is too valuable, and the opportunities are too great.

Don't get me wrong, I am definitely for preserving crown jewels, but I also understand that not everything can be saved. Sometimes we need office space, and housing, and we can't be narrow minded to neglect it. The city needs to grow and is doing so extremely fast. 9 million is not far off.
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Old December 31st, 2015, 10:04 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by 1Undershaft View Post
I assume you've never been to NY. Most of Manhattan is old and beautiful.

That being said, most old buildings between 42nd St and 57th have been razed.

Anyway, I'll take a 1,400' Zaha over the current Tower.
No dude, you're assumption is way off the map man. I have been there many times indeed. Lived in Jamaica for a while too. As for the second, most of MIDTOWN isn't that beautiful in the classic sense anymore compared to what it was before the balkanization began.

The loss of the old mansions was a tragedy of epic proportions. However, that is the way of progress and the city fathers wanted to move ahead and clear away the old. I think that was a rash decision of course now. However, it is easy to look back now from our beach chairs today and play monday morn quarter back. We were not living in the age of euphoria over the 'modern' that engulfed the city at the time. All in all, the city turned out to be an economic powerhouse, so i suppose they did something right in the end. I say, why not demolish more and more old districts for glassy penthouses in the sky? Why stop at midtown :P
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Old December 31st, 2015, 10:24 AM   #68
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But this isn't how developing and growing cities work. To think so goes against the very economic and land principles that govern how cities grow. We have to just accept that parts of history might be lost, BUT not all of it. That's what makes NYC great. You can find 160+ years of history ranging from various schools of architecture. Different styles, cultural influences, and so on. We must give the 21st Century a chance. This city is not reserved for just the achievements of those in the 19th and early 20th Century, but for all.

In terms of low rises with historical significant, I can tell you this. If they are not land marked, they will be gone in the years to come. This is happening as we speak btw. Land is too valuable, and the opportunities are too great.

Don't get me wrong, I am definitely for preserving crown jewels, but I also understand that not everything can be saved. Sometimes we need office space, and housing, and we can't be narrow minded to neglect it. The city needs to grow and is doing so extremely fast. 9 million is not far off.
Not at all. Several large European cities preserved the old very well in areas that would be considered their "midtowns" - their most central locations (Mayfair, Westminster, Grand Blvds, Hausmann) where the land values would have been the highest and would have been very lucrative for development purposes. However, they did the correct thing, to stunt development, thus preserving the areas and allowing for the cities to retain an unbroken historic heart.
They shifted new development elsewhere and still maintain vibrant economies. Why couldn't NY preserve an entire district of of the oldest and most ornate structures in the midtown core and move development of taller, plainer and less attractive subsequent architectural modes elsewhere? There were plenty of other locations in NYC at the time that were open for development, it was not like today.
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Old December 31st, 2015, 01:32 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnDee View Post
Not at all. Several large European cities preserved the old very well in areas that would be considered their "midtowns" - their most central locations (Mayfair, Westminster, Grand Blvds, Hausmann) where the land values would have been the highest and would have been very lucrative for development purposes. However, they did the correct thing, to stunt development, thus preserving the areas and allowing for the cities to retain an unbroken historic heart.
They shifted new development elsewhere and still maintain vibrant economies. Why couldn't NY preserve an entire district of of the oldest and most ornate structures in the midtown core and move development of taller, plainer and less attractive subsequent architectural modes elsewhere? There were plenty of other locations in NYC at the time that were open for development, it was not like today.
All of Manhattan was old and completely developed with beautiful buildings When modern towers were built in the 50s and thereafter. The Hudson Yards is the only area that wasn't, but it was the focus of shipping activity.

As noted, most of Manhattan is still filled with block after block of beautiful old buildings. You should visit some time.
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Old January 1st, 2016, 02:15 AM   #70
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They just needed tall office buildings with tons of office volume. It's done and over. London sort of built a Midtown at Canary Wharf. Paris has La Defense. Big cities need(ed) these hulking monoliths. There are also lots of preserved low rise areas, both de facto and de jure, in Manhattan and in the outer boroughs. It's just not worth complaining about because at this point Midtown is a strong part of Manhattan's identity. It's not the best urbanism, but it works because Manhattan is so dense.

Large pockets of Hell's Kitchen and Sutton Place are effectively what Midtown would have looked like if large skyscrapers weren't built, if you really wanted to get an idea.
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Old January 1st, 2016, 11:30 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bodegavendetta View Post
They just needed tall office buildings with tons of office volume. It's done and over. London sort of built a Midtown at Canary Wharf. Paris has La Defense. Big cities need(ed) these hulking monoliths. There are also lots of preserved low rise areas, both de facto and de jure, in Manhattan and in the outer boroughs. It's just not worth complaining about because at this point Midtown is a strong part of Manhattan's identity. It's not the best urbanism, but it works because Manhattan is so dense.

Large pockets of Hell's Kitchen and Sutton Place are effectively what Midtown would have looked like if large skyscrapers weren't built, if you really wanted to get an idea.


This is what I was talking about. Not Hells Kitchen tenements. These old beautiful unbroken streets of ornate mansions/houses in midtown. Very Mayfair/Kensington. These were replaced by blander and taller structures that could have been built in less salubrious/aesthetically interesting areas if they had any interest in this kind of thing. Commerce won out in the end.
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Old January 1st, 2016, 11:33 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Undershaft View Post
All of Manhattan was old and completely developed with beautiful buildings When modern towers were built in the 50s and thereafter. The Hudson Yards is the only area that wasn't, but it was the focus of shipping activity.

As noted, most of Manhattan is still filled with block after block of beautiful old buildings. You should visit some time.
You're insufferable. Perhaps you can't comprehend what I said? I visited NYC many times. Also, I was talking about Midtown, and not all of Manhattan.

Ah, you are banned. Perhaps it's because you don't read properly... What part of "i have visited many times" don't you get, and you seem like an intelligent person usually.
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Old January 4th, 2016, 06:26 PM   #73
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Putting up a lot of restrictions for new Developments in the city centre is not healthy we have totally ridiculous rules for Height restrictions and preservation of all kinds of old or slightly unique buildings, and sight lines in Norway.

And then u end up with cities like Oslo Where suburbia stretches out for 31 kilometers with a population of just 1 million in the metro. and insane property prices with no reason apart from the regulations and lack of big projects.
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Old January 6th, 2016, 07:16 AM   #74
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Putting up a lot of restrictions for new Developments in the city centre is not healthy we have totally ridiculous rules for Height restrictions and preservation of all kinds of old or slightly unique buildings, and sight lines in Norway.

And then u end up with cities like Oslo Where suburbia stretches out for 31 kilometers with a population of just 1 million in the metro. and insane property prices with no reason apart from the regulations and lack of big projects.
Yup. If anyone of you New Yorkers want to take over Riksantikvaren*, I'll sell at a very reasonable prize and toss in a free case of beer.

*Homepage photos may not necessarily represent their actual day-to-day work



As for the merits of replacing that building, I'll reserve judgement for when I see renders of the replacement. Still, I must say I don't quite get how that thing can invoke emotion in anyone one way or the other compared to all the other stuff in NY.
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Old January 6th, 2016, 09:06 PM   #75
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I don't post on here often, but this comment is outrageous. 5th Ave is still just as vibrant, if not more vibrant and packed by the floods of tourists who consider it to be akin to one of their homogenous luxury malls back home, wherever that may be. It is an increasingly, frighteningly assessment that one of the world's most expensive streets is in need of a "pick-me-up" because it happens to contain a diverse array of architecture.

Not to mention, this building is a beautiful building. As mentioned earlier, it was designed at the onset of the International Style, and the facade is glorious. Sure it may be antiquated on the interior, but a renovation should be required. Instead, we have greedy real estate pigs who consider destroying this building in favor of a sleek residential, hotel tower to be filled by oligarchs willing to use it as a money pit. Plus, as much as I love what Hadid has done, it comes with an extreme price tag. Like Gehry, Hadid's designs are great on paper, but in practice, they continue this sterilization that is so adored by the wealthy who fear of rubbing shoulders with us common folk. Look at what happened in Tokyo with the Olympic Stadium to see what reaction her designs get from the people who actually have to live around them.

I don't mean to call you out specifically JohnDee, but I just get this feeling that a lot of people on this site refuse to recognize the power of diverse architecture in all shapes and sizes. Instead we clamor for 1,400 Ft. towers without recognizing what happens on the inside of them. Pretty soon some people on here will be calling for the destruction of Hell's Kitchen for the sake of another Hudson Yards.

This is one development I am not for. Ok...rant over.
You're missing the point. Fifth Avenue remains a vibrant retail strip, but the non-retail aspects of the buildings that line it are badly dated, and in many cases cannot be fixed with an internal renovation. Sure, retail rents are so phenomenal along Fifth Avenue in the 40s and 50s that maybe the landlords can afford to leave the upper floors mostly vacant, but there's no doubt that office tenants are abandoning the area in droves because the buildings are severely out of date (and are only not moving faster because there's relatively little new commercial construction at the moment).
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Old January 7th, 2016, 08:54 PM   #76
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I realize this is an over-simplification, but, this is exactly why we NEED to build taller in New York.

Building in the 1500 - 2000 ft range (FAA limitation) allows for the best of both worlds. Rather than MANY buildings in the 500 - 800 ft range, which ultimately takes up far more real estate, instead build 2 - 3 buildings in the 1500 - 2000 ft range. This simultaneously creates PRIME office/commercial/residential space, but with a smaller footprint; whilst reducing the need to tear down architectural/historical gems.

We can have the best of both worlds.
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Old January 8th, 2016, 09:12 AM   #77
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This building has the mark of the beast. I thought that was a number that would be skipped lol.
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Old March 20th, 2016, 07:07 PM   #78
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Quote:
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Don't be ridiculous ! While Zaha's Melbourne tower is heinous, 2 WTC is a stunner and is acclaimed by architects and critics.





Architects and critics with traumatic head injuries maybe.
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Old March 21st, 2016, 08:03 AM   #79
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Are there news about this building ?
It's looking like one of those high-beta proposals that come in towards the end of a building cycle. With the global economy slowing plus plenty of competition already coming out of the ground, this one may have to wait until the next cycle.
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Old April 1st, 2016, 11:36 PM   #80
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Guess we now have an idea of what the tower would've looked like. I wonder what's gonna happen to that design now. Hope they keep it.
It looks like a taller version of her Miami tower.

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