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Old November 3rd, 2015, 06:06 PM   #1
Kutsuit
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COMAC | C929

1. CHINA AND RUSSIA JOIN FORCES TO BUILD NEW JUMBO JET

A CHALLENGER APPEARS

http://www.popsci.com/china-and-russ...-new-jumbo-jet



2. China-developed aircraft C929 aims to replace Boeing 777 in the future

http://en.people.cn/n/2015/1026/c98649-8966958.html

Quote:
As the first China-made large aircraft roll off the production line, plans for the larger C929 to rival the Boeing 777 are well under way.
Quote:
The C919's "successor" - the wide-body aircraft C929 has also entered the research stage in terms of key technologies. According to Wang, the C929 will use domestic engine and have a capacity of more than 300 passengers, aiming to replace the Boeing 777 in the future.
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Old November 4th, 2015, 02:09 AM   #2
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Looks awfully like a 787-9 to me.

Which WESTERN Aero Engine supplier has been lined up to support this Airliner with engines. The ones in that render have the distinctive 787 Jaggy Nacelle fitted to the engines, invented by Boeing GE and NASA if I recall.
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Old November 4th, 2015, 02:24 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sponge_bob View Post
Looks awfully like a 787-9 to me.

Which WESTERN Aero Engine supplier has been lined up to support this Airliner with engines. The ones in that render have the distinctive 787 Jaggy Nacelle fitted to the engines, invented by Boeing GE and NASA if I recall.
Brilliant!
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Old November 4th, 2015, 03:11 AM   #4
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Old November 4th, 2015, 05:07 AM   #5
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If one was to design a max fuel efficient widebody one cannot help but look like 787 to be fair.

I still wish them luck, although they probably did copy many aspects.
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Old November 4th, 2015, 07:11 AM   #6
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The main Body of the Airplane looks like B787 and engines too winglets From A350 China Copying Airbus and Boeing Jets C929
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Old November 4th, 2015, 06:51 PM   #7
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This circle jerk about how this render looks like a 787 or A350 is absolutely pathetic.

Has anyone noticed that almost every airliner built in the last 50+ years has a similar design (tube with wings on it)? What are the Chinese supposed to do, create some new design with three wings or something?

The Chinese has a very long history of actually reverse engineering and copying Russian and Western designs, but recently they are trying to actually make their own stuff, albeit with many Western components.

Besides, this is just a render and if it actually gets built, it most likely will look much different.

Look how different the final 787 looks compared to the early concept:

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Old November 4th, 2015, 11:32 PM   #8
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China has to start somewhere, and Russia only got very limited experience building in wide-body commercial passenger jets. It's also still a very long way out, 1st flight is now scheduled for 2020 and EIS in 2023. But we can already expect that it will be several years late, not only judging from the other Chinese plane projects but also from the Airbus and Boeing developments.

And that's to be expected with a project which is mainly developed as a learning project to get the knowledge to design better planes in the future. This plane will already be outdated at it's EIS, just like when the 1st C919 will be delivered. That one will be able to compete with the A320ceo and the 737-800, but not with the NEO and the MAX.
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Old November 5th, 2015, 01:04 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Momo1435 View Post
This plane will already be outdated at it's EIS, just like when the 1st C919 will be delivered. That one will be able to compete with the A320ceo and the 737-800, but not with the NEO and the MAX.
The 919 will have better NEO engine options from day 1 than the MAX will.

It won't have a pedigree like Boeing though. Think 2030 or so and much longer if any strange hull losses occur in China in the first few years
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Old November 7th, 2015, 09:03 PM   #10
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By the way, COMAC is also planning to build a C939 aircraft.
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Old November 7th, 2015, 09:10 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Kutsuit View Post
By the way, COMAC is also planning to build a C939 aircraft.
More information on that:

COMAC C929 / COMAC C939

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...china/c929.htm

Quote:
The Commercial Aircraft Corporation of China Ltd. [COMAC] is the Chinese state-owned corporation specializing in passenger plane development. The company started its operations in the spring of 2008. The company started working on a few models of aircraft - the single-aisle aircraft «ARJ21» and «C919», designed for short and medium-haul flights and with a seating capacity of up to 105 and 190 people respectively. In the future, the company plans to implement a more "heavy" projects - to produce twin-engine wide-body airliners - «COMAC C929» (with a capacity of up to 290 people) and «COMAC C939», which will be able to provide a comfortable flight for up to 390 passengers simultaneously.

The C919 single-aisle airliner is a very ambitious project for COMAC. But it is just the start. As part of its long-term plans, the company also has its sights set on the twin-aisle market with the C929 and the C939. In fact, COMAC’s long-term goal is to capture one-third of the domestic market by 2030.
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The target for entry into service is 2023-25. The widebody studies focused on an aircraft rather like the Airbus A330. Comac thinks airlines will need a replacement for that Airbus type next decade. That implies competition with the 787.
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China and Russia will work together on plans to jointly develop a next-generation wide-body jetliner. The project is led by Russia’s United Aircraft Corp. (UAC), along with Chinese airframers Comac and Avic. The partners plan to develop a family of three models; a baseline version of the proposed twinjet would transport 250-280 passengers up to 6,476 nautical miles, followed by smaller and stretched versions of the same airframe. The early 2015 agreement called for the first flight to take place in 2021 followed by certification in 2024.

UAC’s engineering team is responsible for design of the new aircraft’s wing, empennage and aerodynamic surfaces, which will be made of composite materials. The wingspan is expected to be some 360 feet, with the first example due to be ready sometime around 2019-2020. Overall, the airframe is expected to be composed around 50 percent of composite materials and 15 percent titanium.
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Old November 7th, 2015, 11:09 PM   #12
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China hasn´t produced a successful car for the world market yet and they want to builld own planes now?

They should concentrate on things they can really good like mobiles and computers and let aviation to the big boys.
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Old November 8th, 2015, 01:21 PM   #13
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As a fast growing economy, with expectations to become world biggest in few decades, its logical to start developments of everything, including wide body jetliners. Still long way to go in many aspects, but sooner they start, faster they will make it
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Old November 9th, 2015, 04:43 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by nenad_kgdc View Post
As a fast growing economy, with expectations to become world biggest in few decades, its logical to start developments of everything, including wide body jetliners. Still long way to go in many aspects, but sooner they start, faster they will make it
Well said!

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Originally Posted by Deadeye Reloaded View Post
China hasn´t produced a successful car for the world market yet and they want to builld own planes now?

They should concentrate on things they can really good like mobiles and computers and let aviation to the big boys.
China belongs with the big boys.
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Old November 9th, 2015, 04:48 PM   #15
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Why China is taking its aviation industry to the skies

By 2030-'35, the country would have around 6,000 aircraft which could be used by their military for human and cargo traffic, if required.

http://www.dailyo.in/politics/aviati...ry/1/7170.html

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Over fast few years China has dominated some of the commercial goods markets, both regionally and globally, by following a policy of flooding markets with volume and low cost items like electrical and computer appliances, cloths and pent. It is a common knowledge that the busts of various Indian deities, much in demand during the festive season, are normally made in China. But, now China is thinking really big and is moving beyond low-cost manufacturing sector.
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The business of aviation is extremely complex. Glamour could be the face of this business but actually there are far too many intricacies associated. Safety is a major concern, be it an airliner or aircraft industry. The real challenge for aviation business is about the financial sustainability. The agencies involved in this business need to have capability to sustain for many years without earning profits. The business takes time to become cost-effective. Aircraft industries support aviation sector by building aircraft and ancillaries. Today, globally, only limited industries are involved in aircraft-making, owing to technological and financial challenges. Now China is planning to "disturb" this market.
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Presently, some forecasts (sponsored by Airbus and Boeing) are available about the future of civil aircraft market. It is estimated that within the next 20 years, China is expected to have requirement of approximately 6,000 new passenger aircrafts (say business of about USD 900 billion). It is expected that the global requirement could be for more than 30,000 aircraft during the same period. China understands that only C919 aircraft would not help them to attract the global customers. Comac is proposing to develop C929 and C939 as wide-body models which are expected to cater for around 300 and 400 passengers respectively. Chinese investment towards indigenous aircraft industry should also be viewed at the backdrop of their pet "One Belt One Road"/"Silk Road" initiative. "Air Silk Road" is an important element of this project. China is planning to invest approximately USD 32 billion in more than 50 aviation related projects under this initiative. China understands the need to accelerate their aero engine development project. For China, a successful aviation industry is about expanding their "global footprint" by using aviation as a tool.

China views aircraft industry as an important commercial activity and also as a tool to expand their geostrategic influence. Commercial aircraft could always come in the aid of military in case of national emergencies. By 2030-'35, China would have around 6,000 aircraft which could be used by their military for human and cargo traffic, if required.
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Old November 16th, 2015, 06:37 AM   #16
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This will be a long term project, right now the focus is very much on the C919. I see C929 and C939 to be projects focused on in the 2020-2030 time frame. A C929 is critical to China as it will also serve as the presidential aircraft plus the baseline for a future PLAAF aerial refueling tanker.
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Old November 16th, 2015, 10:19 AM   #17
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Airbus & Boeing watch the chinese!

It is like Boeing laughing on the A300 in the 70ies......
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Old November 16th, 2015, 11:27 AM   #18
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It is nothing new.

China&Russia signed years ago a joint venture to built a passenger plane. They already built medium size planes like Comac 919 or Suchoi Superjet. But with the joint&venture
they will be able to built bigger wide body planes and break the Airbus-Boeing Duality in this field.
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Old November 16th, 2015, 05:38 PM   #19
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It's not a contest of Airbus and Boeing in the red corner and upstart Comac in the blue corner. It's more like Airbus and Boeing in the red corner and the Chinese Communist Party in the red corner with the latter being able to tap into huge resources.

Case in point High Speed Rail ten years ago the Chinese were nowehere nowdays they are pushing their HSR to all corners. Eventually they will dominate the market for HSR due to their competitive advantages.

Post 2020 the Chinese Aviation Market will be the most lucrative in the world , They will simply push you out of their domestic market then expand progressively overseas. All said and done Airbus and Boeing are private corporations they don't contol the second largest economy in the world.

China inc is not to be taken lightly as for making cars to sell on world markets the Chinese automotive market is the largest in the world by units sold annually foreign automakers are forming JV with local carmakers to get a foothold in the market. THe Chinese sell plenty of cars in the local market and get the benefit of technology and knowledge transfer from their foreign partners. Foreign automakers need China more than China needs foriegn automakers. I suspect the same logic will apply once the C919 and its successors get airborne.

As for sticking to what they are good at their logic is if it has been done before then it can be done again just faster and cheaper. The Chinese don;t outsmart you they outwork you, out compete you. This cloak of invincibility , the assumption that the victory is assured because of their inherent superiority in all aspects. Post 2030 I expect them to be in a much stronger position.

It's not just the Chinese moving into the aviation market but also the Japanese as well and with the recent announcement of a JV between China and Russia there are three major players here.
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Old November 16th, 2015, 11:32 PM   #20
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That won't work since goes against WTO regulations. A state funded project for commercial market goes against capitalism and will always be targeted by WTO.
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