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Old October 24th, 2009, 06:08 PM   #241
Urbanista1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karasek View Post
I don't want to be an ass, but Poland received Silesia, Pommerania, parts of Eastern Prussia and Neumark, all former German territory. Warsaw was rebuilt with material from these regions. It received millions of bricks (especially valuable Gothic bricks) from Wroclaw, the interiors of several Silesian churches (like Lubiasz) and many library's collections.

No, if Poland was not pushed into the Soviet bloc, the borders may never have changed but there would have been substantial compensation from Germany for the near total destruction of all cities, murder of 6 million people (another 5 million permanently displaced), near complete annihilation of all cultural artifacts and all of our national library collections in Warsaw.

Based on the scenario that did happen, getting some western territories, some of which were Polish at one time (don't forget Silesia, Pomerania have been passed between Poland and Germany etc for centuries) was not compensation from Germany but what our so-called allies (US, Britain etc who stabbed us all in the back) decided FOR US when they gave us some German territories while taking away most of Poland's historic lands to the east, which we will never get back.

So, I didn't want to raise this issue in this thread nor start any such contentious discussions, but there was in fact never any financial compensation to Poland from anyone. Germany got the $20 billion (about $200 billion today) Marshall Plan to rebuild, while Poland was then reoccupied by Soviet Russia who plundered and exprorpiated everyone all over again and took what remained of our manufacturing base and anything of value back to Russia proper and deporting and killing another million or so of what was left of a ruling, intellectual class. But of course they did the same thing to East Germany. So, gettting some real esatate with mostly destroyed cities from which Poland could salvage some bricks was hardly comepnsation for being set back in our material, technologocal and cultural development for nearly 50 years.

Also, East Germany after it was reunified got hundreds of billions to rebuild after the commie disaster from wealthy west Germany while Poland had to wait for EU money to trickle in to rebuild almost everything all over again, but sadly a lot of our most skilled workers now live and work in England and Germany. Hopefully, they will come back some day with their English/German wives/husbands to rebuild Poland.

I understand how Germans feel and the Nazi disaster has left you with many scars as well, but don't be surprised that we get really cranky when we talk about what happened to us, what is lost forever and how much clean up there still is.

Last edited by Urbanista1; October 24th, 2009 at 06:59 PM.
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Old October 26th, 2009, 04:44 AM   #242
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ALL pictures below by Polex:

2009 vs 1944/1945




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Old October 26th, 2009, 04:49 AM   #243
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Polex



































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Old October 26th, 2009, 05:21 AM   #244
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Is that the Nowy Swiat street? Why were these buildings rebuilt in such a completely different yet classic manner? Did they try to bring back a pre-19th century look or something like that?
The couldn't as communist authorities forbade reconstruction of any kind of ornaments and designs. In their minds they looked too "bourgeoisie".

Even buildings that remained were essentially stripped down to bare minimum and usually lowered by a floor or two.
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Old October 26th, 2009, 02:22 PM   #245
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I understand that the communist stripped buildings from their ornaments but I don't see why would they lower buildings by floor or two? In a city that was devastated in WW2 every avaible living space was very needed I guess.

In Belgrade it was the opposite old buildings were expanded by one, two or three floors, unfortunattly that was usually done without any respect to the buildings architecture and facade composition so many nice buildings were devastated with these actions.
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Old October 26th, 2009, 02:26 PM   #246
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Quote:
The couldn't as communist authorities forbade reconstruction of any kind of ornaments and designs. In their minds they looked too "bourgeoisie".
Thats not true, at least for places like Nowy Świat not to mention they actually used a lot of ornaments in this period.
Afaik they more or less reconstructed the look from the late XVIII century early XIX, it's also more uniform in height and less chaotic then it was before the war.


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Old October 26th, 2009, 07:42 PM   #247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluminat View Post
Thats not true, at least for places like Nowy Świat not to mention they actually used a lot of ornaments in this period.
Afaik they more or less reconstructed the look from the late XVIII century early XIX, it's also more uniform in height and less chaotic then it was before the war.
Pictures you posted are actually only confirming what I said
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Old October 30th, 2009, 10:36 PM   #248
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Good work done by Polex


Jasna str.

1944


2009
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Old October 30th, 2009, 11:42 PM   #249
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Horse and buggy in 1945?
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Old October 30th, 2009, 11:49 PM   #250
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Horse and buggy in 1945?
You do realize this is right after the war and the city was basically not really even a city anymore. Right?
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Old October 31st, 2009, 01:33 AM   #251
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You do realize this is right after the war and the city was basically not really even a city anymore. Right?
Yes, obviously...
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Old November 9th, 2009, 07:33 PM   #252
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About 100 areial pictures of Warsaw before 1944
Just clikc the link, scroll down and click where the word "Warschau" stands
http://www.fotomarburg.de//bestaende/uebernahm/kieler2

All pictures haves more that 1000 x 1000 pixels
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Old November 9th, 2009, 11:06 PM   #253
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Thanks Dr. Mabuse...what a treasure trove of high quality images, not the grainy kind where you can't see anything.
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Old November 9th, 2009, 11:21 PM   #254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nautica17 View Post
You do realize this is right after the war and the city was basically not really even a city anymore. Right?
forget it, just look where he is from.
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Old November 11th, 2009, 12:06 PM   #255
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Lublin Union square

Before second world war:





Today:



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Old November 11th, 2009, 02:41 PM   #256
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One of the topics which is connected to the destruction and the tragedy of Warsaw is the discussion wether the Warsaw Uprising made any sense or not .

Can please someone explain to me what the military goal of the Warsaw Uprising was ?

The Soviets were standing on the other side of the Wisla and the war was almost over for Warsaw. The polish exile government in London should have known that there was no way that the varsovians could get rid of the Germans and afterwards stop the whole Red Army just by an uprising.
So militarily an uprising only would have made sense if there would had been a possiblity to influence the course of the war. Besides that everybody and especially the exile government knew that the Nazis were ruhtless and reacted to all uprisings in with brutal retaliations. For sure the argument that the Nazis were ruthless is no criterion that people shouldn't resist.
People often prefer rather to die on their feet than to crawl on their knees.
Therefore all my sympathies are with the Polish resistance of the second word war and the young Poles who died in this uprising of Warsaw but in my opinion this "operation" was just insane.

But I'm ready to change my point of view.So maybe someone here can convince me that the Warsaw Oprising made sense

Last edited by FritzMitWitz; November 11th, 2009 at 02:50 PM.
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Old November 11th, 2009, 03:31 PM   #257
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I can't convince you cause I think the same... I admire those brave youg people - many of them younger than 20yo, but this was just mass suicide. Circumstances of the decision about uprising are also complicated - not everyone in Polish government or army even knew about it, many people were opposite to this idea.
Well, despite bringing a destruction to Warsaw (which was not so totally destroyed before) it exterminated the essence of polish society - young, brave and intelligent people, many of them were poets or artists - the ones that would form a new middle class after war - the clas we just hadn't for next 40> years. It was huge blow for future polish society and I personally think we feel its results till now...
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Old November 11th, 2009, 08:44 PM   #258
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Very shocking and sad pictures. Hats off to the people of Warsaw for finding strength to rebuild their city in such an amazing way.
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Old November 11th, 2009, 11:14 PM   #259
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Hi FritzMitWitz,

The answer to this question troubles many to this day, especially myself as an urban planner, Varsavophile and a Pole. Why? The Uprising was launched as a result of the inate human desire to live and resist brutal oppression, but it was based in large part (according to some experts) on promises made by Britain to provide support, which unfortunately never materialized. Also, Stalin's Red Army also provided false intelligence that they would come to the aid of the insurgents, but this was a trick or deliberate strategic decision by Stalin to lure them to their destruction, knowing the German side. You should read Norman Davies book Poland - God's Playground, as he provides a plausible rationale for this.

I think fighting for one's liberty and dignity is noble, but unfortunately this led to Poland's and Warsaw's degradation as a people and culture. Of the external structures, a great deal was rebuilt and will continue to be rebuilt. The priceless art and library collections (valuable to the whole world) are gone forever along with people with great potential. Although it is no consolation, the destruction has provided a lot of open space for the investment boom that is happening in Warsaw today.

Also, you must keep in mind that the destruction and annihilation of Warsaw and its Polish cultural treasures was going to happen regardless as per the Pabst Plan supported by Hitler. The destruction was not just punishment for the uprising but was planned with the aid of German scholars for a few years who inventoried the most valuable cultural artifacts. See Pabst Plan and Destruction of Warsaw in Wikipedia, as it provides good general information.

I don't think that those young people involved in the Uprising nor any civilized person could ever have anticipated the unprecedented ethnic cleansing and complete annihilation that happened afterwards. If they knew that this would happen, I think they would have been smart and surrendered. But these were young naive children - May they rest in peace.

This also begs the question, what were the Germans in the Einzatzgruppen (annihilation squads) who systemically destroyed the city and killed so many thinking. If indeed the war was lost for Germany, then were they driven by revenge or were they following orders. I'm trying to understand what motivated the other side. It would be fascinating to interview these people.

Last edited by Urbanista1; November 12th, 2009 at 02:13 AM.
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Old November 12th, 2009, 08:15 AM   #260
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Many of german soldiers (especially 36. Waffen Grenadier Division of Oskar Dirlewanger) were just criminals sent out from prisons to annihilate this city. I've read some memoirs of young Polish soldiers and some descriptions just shocked me. Raping women and children, killing hospital personnel and patients, torturing people, it was just insane.
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