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Old November 12th, 2009, 02:01 PM   #261
Karasek
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Originally Posted by Urbanista1 View Post
Also, you must keep in mind that the destruction and annihilation of Warsaw and its Polish cultural treasures was going to happen regardless as per the Pabst Plan supported by Hitler. The destruction was not just punishment for the uprising but was planned with the aid of German scholars for a few years who inventoried the most valuable cultural artifacts. See Pabst Plan and Destruction of Warsaw in Wikipedia, as it provides good general information.

BTW: is there a website which lists the lost Polish cultural artifacts?
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Old November 12th, 2009, 05:04 PM   #262
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It seems that Ypres (Belgium) was Warsaw in the first world war, as Ypres was the centre of intense and sustained battles between the German and the Allied forces!

After the war the town was rebuilt using money paid by Germany in reparations, with the main square, including the Cloth Hall and town hall, being rebuilt as close to the original designs as possible. (The rest of the rebuilt town is more modern in appearance.) The Cloth Hall today is home to In Flanders Fields Museum, dedicated to Ypres's role in the First World War.

Then:













Today:











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Old November 12th, 2009, 05:35 PM   #263
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Elvenking, I didn't know that these were just criminal, but I'm not surprised. Apparently some Polish documentarian tried to interview a few and they were so nasty. These were hardened evil low lifes that to this day feel no compassion or seek no repentence - pure evil.

Well, the same barbarians destroyed Rome as Warsaw and both will be rebuilt. After all these years, I just feel sad now for those young boys and girls.

My biggest concern is that Warsaw doesn't have a very good conservator right now who promotes the restoration of pre-war buildings - she seems to be in love with socreal.

Aside from the Warsaw Uprising Museum, what monuments to the Uprising in Warsaw do you like best?

Had no idea that Ypres was so badly damaged. Was the city as large as Warsaw before War (1.3 million), probably smaller, but it looks like it may have suffered 85% destruction like Warsaw, but all I see is the main core damaged.

Karasek, check this website and any links from it:

http://www.warszawa1939.pl

Last edited by Urbanista1; November 12th, 2009 at 05:42 PM.
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Old November 12th, 2009, 06:07 PM   #264
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By seeing all this old pictures of Warsaw before WWII I could understand how much the city suffered and lost. My condolences
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Old November 12th, 2009, 08:17 PM   #265
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Had no idea that Ypres was so badly damaged. Was the city as large as Warsaw before War (1.3 million), probably smaller, but it looks like it may have suffered 85% destruction like Warsaw, but all I see is the main core damaged.
After the war they made lists, saying that 41 301 houses were destroyed and 4245 uninhabitable (compared with 68 901 destroyed and 10 999 uninhabitable for the rest of Belgium). Before WOI Ypres had 180 000 citizens, in 1921 that was just 10 000, today it's around 40 000.
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Old November 13th, 2009, 11:52 PM   #266
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Wow that's amazing. It would be nice if Germans got together to help rebuild Warsaw as a European project. Maybe Polish expertise, some German funds and organizational prowess and we could help each other rebuild the glories of Dresden and Warsaw. Anyway, it would be a surprising and very enocuraging gesture no matter how small. I know Poland is getting EU funds, but this would be a more personal connection.
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Old November 15th, 2009, 06:57 AM   #267
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Hello . . . I have a few questions about Warszawa. Isn't it true after the war a lot was actually recovered? I read about one man who made it his duty to recover everything the Germans stole (I think he was a University of Warsaw prof but I am not sure). There's a special organization that deals with recovering lost artifacts. How big is the collection in the Warsaw National Museum?
I think Urbanista wrote that Poland never really received any compensation from Germany. Is this actually true? I heard that Poland received something - but of course not enough. Can someone back these claims up? I also read that most of the EU funds Poland receives come from Germany's pockets so they are in a way paying back.
I know Warsaw and Poland lost a lot of its political elite and intelligentsia but let's be positive. Poland has, and is continuing to recover quite well from it's past. Not all was lost. The elite and intelligentsia thrive. It's just the old commie mentality present in the older generation that has to be wiped out. So I say the Poles should be proud for rebuilding their capital and country! I was in Warszawa in 2007 and was quite impressed by it.
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Old November 17th, 2009, 01:39 AM   #268
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you are absolutely right about the commie mentality. Warsaw could also use a conservator is less like Stalin and more flexible.
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Old November 17th, 2009, 06:13 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by rychlik View Post
Hello . . . I have a few questions about Warszawa. Isn't it true after the war a lot was actually recovered? I read about one man who made it his duty to recover everything the Germans stole (I think he was a University of Warsaw prof but I am not sure). There's a special organization that deals with recovering lost artifacts. How big is the collection in the Warsaw National Museum?
I think Urbanista wrote that Poland never really received any compensation from Germany. Is this actually true? I heard that Poland received something - but of course not enough. Can someone back these claims up? I also read that most of the EU funds Poland receives come from Germany's pockets so they are in a way paying back.
I know Warsaw and Poland lost a lot of its political elite and intelligentsia but let's be positive. Poland has, and is continuing to recover quite well from it's past. Not all was lost. The elite and intelligentsia thrive. It's just the old commie mentality present in the older generation that has to be wiped out. So I say the Poles should be proud for rebuilding their capital and country! I was in Warszawa in 2007 and was quite impressed by it.
From what I found, compensation may have been offered, but Stalin refused it on Poland's behalf. As you know, Poland and most of central Europe was reoccupied by Soviet Russia after WWII. From what I saw last year, Poland is recovering very well, but it's hard to tell (not living there) what the quality of life is like, especially given the Polish tendency for pessimism. In terms of lost objects of art etc, you should get the DVD or book The Rape of Europa, which documents losses by all countries including Poland. According to this source over 650,000-850,000 majors works of art/books/object d'art are still missing, including the Czartoryski Museum's famous Raphael, which is priceless. A lot of great Italian renaissance art was destroyed when the churches of Warsaw were systematically destroyed.
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Old November 17th, 2009, 07:58 PM   #270
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rychlik View Post
Hello . . . I have a few questions about Warszawa. Isn't it true after the war a lot was actually recovered? I read about one man who made it his duty to recover everything the Germans stole (I think he was a University of Warsaw prof but I am not sure). There's a special organization that deals with recovering lost artifacts. How big is the collection in the Warsaw National Museum?
I think Urbanista wrote that Poland never really received any compensation from Germany. Is this actually true? I heard that Poland received something - but of course not enough. Can someone back these claims up? I also read that most of the EU funds Poland receives come from Germany's pockets so they are in a way paying back.
I know Warsaw and Poland lost a lot of its political elite and intelligentsia but let's be positive. Poland has, and is continuing to recover quite well from it's past. Not all was lost. The elite and intelligentsia thrive. It's just the old commie mentality present in the older generation that has to be wiped out. So I say the Poles should be proud for rebuilding their capital and country! I was in Warszawa in 2007 and was quite impressed by it.
It would be great if Europe (and the Americas) could come together to rebuild what was destroyed.
England could do projects to restore cities that the British bombed in WWII, the Germans could pay to restore cities that the Nazis destroyed, everyone could pitch a little in to rebuild Berlin, so on so on.
It would be wonderful, and a lot of pride as Europeans (and her extensions) would be restored!
Could you imagine cities like Warsaw and Berlin completely restored to their pre-war glory?

It would also be nice if the places destroyed by the US in Japan could be restored (the historic landmarks and neighborhoods).
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Old November 17th, 2009, 09:09 PM   #271
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Utopia.

It would be impossible, cause you'd have to demolish all modern buildings to make place for artificial reconstructions. Thats the endless discussion about reconstructions and point of doing them. Of course I love pre-war European architecture and fortunately part of it was saved or rebuilt, but times have changed and we need modern development as well.

Who would guess how would Warsaw look like now?
Would we still have this?



Everything has its beginning and the end, something old goes, something new comes...
I'm very sad because of my capital's tragedy, but I still love the way how it looks now.

Also I recommend this movie to everybody

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Old November 18th, 2009, 06:00 PM   #272
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I think Urbanista wrote that Poland never really received any compensation from Germany. Is this actually true? I heard that Poland received something - but of course not enough. Can someone back these claims up?
Poland received German territory: Silesia, Pommerania and parts of Eastern Prussia. This wasn't called compensation, but the simple fact that German owned property is now owned by Poles fulfills all condition of a compensation.
Warsaw is the best example for this compensation. The former German town of Breslau, now Wroclaw, provided up to 165 million bricks to Warsaw every year during the 50s. Warsaws destroyed churches received works of art from Silesias churches, among them Silesias most precious abbey Lubiasz, which is now more or less a ruin. The lost collections of Warsaw were also restocked with former German artworks. The library of Warsaws university, for example, now owns several former Silesian libraries, among them parts of the Schaffgotsch library, once the biggest privately owned library in Germany.
But what is enough? No German book can compensate for a lost Polish book, and no money can bring back lost lifes.
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Old November 18th, 2009, 06:15 PM   #273
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I found something on Wikipedia about the Warsaw National Musuem:

During World War II the building was damaged and the collection looted by German soldiers. After the war the Polish Government, under the supervision of Prof Lorentz, retrieved works seized by the Germans. At present, the collection of the National Museum in Warsaw includes over 780,000 items displayed in many permanent galleries, including the Professor Kazimierz Michałowski Faras Gallery and galleries given over to Ancient Art, Medieval Art, Foreign Painting, Polish Painting, European Goldsmithing, Oriental Art, Twentieth Century Polish Art, Polish Decorative Art and European Decorative Art, as well as many temporary exhibitions.

In 2008 started in Crimea "Polish Archaeological Mission "Tyritake" of National Museum in Warsaw" headed by Alfred Twardecki kustosz (curator) in Ancient Art Gallery.

-It names the guy I was speaking of- Professor Lorentz. If anyone knows anything about him then feel free to post here. Bastard Germans won't have the last laugh.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Museum,_Warsaw

http://www.mnw.art.pl/index.php/en/
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Old November 18th, 2009, 08:01 PM   #274
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Poland received German territory: Silesia, Pommerania and parts of Eastern Prussia. This wasn't called compensation, but the simple fact that German owned property is now owned by Poles fulfills all condition of a compensation.
Warsaw is the best example for this compensation. The former German town of Breslau, now Wroclaw, provided up to 165 million bricks to Warsaw every year during the 50s. Warsaws destroyed churches received works of art from Silesias churches, among them Silesias most precious abbey Lubiasz, which is now more or less a ruin. The lost collections of Warsaw were also restocked with former German artworks. The library of Warsaws university, for example, now owns several former Silesian libraries, among them parts of the Schaffgotsch library, once the biggest privately owned library in Germany.
But what is enough? No German book can compensate for a lost Polish book, and no money can bring back lost lifes.
This is the point, unique Polish collections such as the one in the Krasinski Library are gone forever. Despite all the bricks donated to Warsaw from Wroclaw it could not even begin to replace what was lost in Warsaw. It's like trying to rebuild Rome with parts from some city 1/4 its size. I was shocked to read how many treasures were lost in St. John's Cathedral in the old town when the German Goliath tank rolled in and destroyed this 700 year old edifice.

You speak of Silesia as if it were always German when in fact this is a region where Poles and Germans blended a great deal before the war to create a unique culture. Germans and Poles on the ground actually got along very well before Hitler.

The areas Poland gained after WWII were the subject of many boundary shifts over the last 1000 years between Germany/Prussia and Poland. I was surprised to find that Gdansk has been Polish for nearly 700 hundred of the last 1,000 years.

Thanks for the info on the German collections, didn't know about this and will have to explore further now. Anyway, as long we can work together to fight the enmity (due to WWII mainly) between us for a better future, I have no grudges at all against the Germans of today.
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Old November 18th, 2009, 08:47 PM   #275
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+ Wroclaw (Breslau) is medieval p o l i s h city built originally by p o l i s h people, not by Germans. Fact that Germans have been in control of it for some time in history does not make this city German. Czech kings also posessed it and does this mean it's Czech city? No.
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Old November 18th, 2009, 09:27 PM   #276
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anyway, if Europeans don't stand together, they will fall! It's as simple as that! Christian Harbulot pointed it out, if Europeans don't brace themselfs, they will lose everything.
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Old November 18th, 2009, 10:02 PM   #277
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+ Wroclaw (Breslau) is medieval p o l i s h city built originally by p o l i s h people, not by Germans. Fact that Germans have been in control of it for some time in history does not make this city German. Czech kings also posessed it and does this mean it's Czech city? No.
So, the owners of the houses, of the land and of the companies in 1945 were Czechs? Poles? Martians?
You don't get the point.

Last edited by Karasek; November 18th, 2009 at 10:08 PM.
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Old November 19th, 2009, 05:34 PM   #278
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anyway, if Europeans don't stand together, they will fall! It's as simple as that! Christian Harbulot pointed it out, if Europeans don't brace themselfs, they will lose everything.
I support that wholeheartedly. We have a painful past, we are dealing with, but let's leave it in museums and memorials, because I truly believe we have an amazing future together. Some people need some more time especially in Poland, because, really, we are just waking up, finally allowed to grieve freely and openly in a free country. I hope this time time passes quickly and it helps that everyday we see more reasons to be hopeful of the future.
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Old November 19th, 2009, 05:39 PM   #279
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So, the owners of the houses, of the land and of the companies in 1945 were Czechs? Poles? Martians?
You don't get the point.
We do get the point, he is just speaking of historic legitimacy and roots of Wroclaw. There was a large Polish minority in Wroclaw even before the war. Also, don't forget, Poles who had property in the east, huge estates, factories will never get anything back either - even the churches are orthodox...so be it.
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Old November 20th, 2009, 06:05 PM   #280
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+ Wroclaw (Breslau) is medieval p o l i s h city built originally by p o l i s h people, not by Germans. Fact that Germans have been in control of it for some time in history does not make this city German. Czech kings also posessed it and does this mean it's Czech city? No.
Until now I took part in ssc in dicussions about the battle of Grunewald, polish jewish history and some other stuff connected to Poland.

And every polish related thread I visit I find the same national-patriotic polish bullsh... statements of some polish forumers who start to debate history in a nationalistic way!

Why do you have to write that the city was actually always polish in B I G letters ?
The expression "have been in control" sounds like the statements of the Right Wing in Israel who always express that the Arabs have been in control of Jerusalem for 2000 thousand years.

What is that shit all about? Can someone please stop this?

Why cannot you just say that Wroclaw was mainly a city populated by polish ethnicities in this time, afterwards a city mainly populated by German ethnicities and is now, because of dramatic historical circumstances which occured 65 years ago, once again a Polish city ?

Why do you come up with this bullshit about the "reconquered territories"?

Why cannot you just show respect to everybody, every ethnicity or person and their history as well as their suffering, who lived in the city in the last 500years no matter what language they spoke or under which Kingdom they lived ?

Wake Up !It's the year 2009 and the borders in Europe are open.
Can you please leave your nationalism behind !

For sure some of the Polish forumers will soon come up with the idea, as soon as he will die, that Gunther Grass was actually Polish because Gdansk was always a Polish city.

Sorry for the off-topic. I won't comment further on this issue in this in this thread

Last edited by FritzMitWitz; November 20th, 2009 at 06:54 PM.
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