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Old November 20th, 2009, 06:49 PM   #281
Karasek
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanista1 View Post
We do get the point, he is just speaking of historic legitimacy and roots of Wroclaw. There was a large Polish minority in Wroclaw even before the war. Also, don't forget, Poles who had property in the east, huge estates, factories will never get anything back either - even the churches are orthodox...so be it.
I don't complain about our losses, I just find it strange that the simple fact that German property became Polish after the war provokes a instruction about 1000 years of Polish history?!
There was no large Polish minority in Breslau before the war. The number of Poles in Breslau dropped from ~6.000 around 1900 to ~2.500 people around 1930 (Harasimowicz, Encyklopedia Wrocławia).

Apart from that Elvenkings post is highly amusing. By his logic the entire region to the east of the Elbe river can't be called German. I'm not sure if I can still be called a German, since Upper Lusatia, Silesias neighbour and my home, shared Silesias fate for a long time.
Maybe Californians and Texans shouldn't be called Americans either...
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Old November 23rd, 2009, 05:38 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by Karasek View Post
I don't complain about our losses, I just find it strange that the simple fact that German property became Polish after the war provokes a instruction about 1000 years of Polish history?!
There was no large Polish minority in Breslau before the war. The number of Poles in Breslau dropped from ~6.000 around 1900 to ~2.500 people around 1930 (Harasimowicz, Encyklopedia Wrocławia).

Apart from that Elvenkings post is highly amusing. By his logic the entire region to the east of the Elbe river can't be called German. I'm not sure if I can still be called a German, since Upper Lusatia, Silesias neighbour and my home, shared Silesias fate for a long time.
Maybe Californians and Texans shouldn't be called Americans either...
Well, there is understandable insecurity about some of these subjects. Poles are tired of changing borders and constant dislocation - it's hard to build anything when you have to rebuild everything every generation.

The numbers Poles dropped in Wroclaw/Breslau because of the kulturkampf or a kind of ethnic cleansing practised by Prussia. As we can see population composition can change a lot over history. Toronto for example was 90% anglo-saxon when I was born and now it is 25% Chinese. How you identify yourself ethnically (a rather new concept unfortunately) depends on many things. My father was ethnically Polish/Silesian with a half-German mother and admired all things German, my mother on the other hand didn't like hearing German at home, so I was taught Polish. Culture, ethnicity and geography are not as interrrelated today as they used to be, otherwise I would be Canadian and that's it., but I like variety...and a challenge : )
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Old November 23rd, 2009, 06:24 PM   #283
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The fact is that Wrocław throughout its history was inhabited by people who called themselves "those who live here", we could call them Silesians. In medieval times it wasn't so obvious for a person to belong to a certain country, many people didn't even care. People who lived in Wrocław when it was Polish back in the early history of Poland could speak a Slavic language similar to Polish or Czech. Once the city became Czech and later - Austrian, some settlers who spoke German started to appear in the region. In the process, language that was formed those times was pretty much germanized, as more and more people who spoke German were coming to the city. But STILL, it looked like this:

Der Breslauer Gabeljürge

Der aale Meergot, ar heeßt wull Näpptun,
derr wollde eim schläsischen Wosser
einst ruhn und da de Schläsinger ihm gutt gesunnen,
do da bauten se lauter Näpptunsbrunnen, wunderscheene barocke Plantsch
und Wosserbecken, Arabesken und Orniamente an der Kaschte ihren Ecken
und der Gabeljürge sälber, die Gabel ei der Hand, wor a Wosserspucker uff huchem Stand.

It wasn't German itself. I just want to show that it's not that easy to speak about such city like Wrocław in categories like "it was German, it was Polish" - no, it DID in fact belong to a certain nation, but the case of who inhabited it was faaaar different and the history that was formed in its borders wasn't in fact created by those two countries that argue all the time nowadays

BUT, we are sure that after Friderick I attacked Austria and took Wrocław in 1741 it started to be germanized at much faster rate and when it became part of Germany itself - vast majorty of its inhabitants started to speak this "normal" German.
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Old November 23rd, 2009, 08:51 PM   #284
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erm...that's a genuine German poem, before the spelling was standardized.

Not saying you're wrong or anything, but this example isn't a good one.
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Old November 23rd, 2009, 09:36 PM   #285
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Aw, time to find something (anything) else. I did a pretty nice research about languages in Wroclaw for a hell-great project 1,5 year ago - while this text was somewhere here on scc.com, shouldn't have used that then.
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Old November 23rd, 2009, 11:12 PM   #286
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanista1 View Post
The numbers Poles dropped in Wroclaw/Breslau because of the kulturkampf or a kind of ethnic cleansing practised by Prussia. As we can see population composition can change a lot over history.
The charme of this explanation is that no older censuses are available. The census from 1900 however lists so many counties with a significant Polish minority (or majority) that the idea of a greatly reduced minority in Breslau is pretty implausible. The county of Breslau isn't even listed as a county with a significant minority (>5%), whereas other counties have more than 80% Poles. Even Recklinghausen had 14% Poles!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Marek_VF
The fact is that Wrocław throughout its history was inhabited by people who called themselves "those who live here", we could call them Silesians. In medieval times it wasn't so obvious for a person to belong to a certain country, many people didn't even care. People who lived in Wrocław when it was Polish back in the early history of Poland could speak a Slavic language similar to Polish or Czech. Once the city became Czech and later - Austrian, some settlers who spoke German started to appear in the region. In the process, language that was formed those times was pretty much germanized, as more and more people who spoke German were coming to the city. But STILL, it looked like this:

Der Breslauer Gabeljürge

Der aale Meergot, ar heeßt wull Näpptun,
derr wollde eim schläsischen Wosser
einst ruhn und da de Schläsinger ihm gutt gesunnen,
do da bauten se lauter Näpptunsbrunnen, wunderscheene barocke Plantsch
und Wosserbecken, Arabesken und Orniamente an der Kaschte ihren Ecken
und der Gabeljürge sälber, die Gabel ei der Hand, wor a Wosserspucker uff huchem Stand.

It wasn't German itself. I just want to show that it's not that easy to speak about such city like Wrocław in categories like "it was German, it was Polish" - no, it DID in fact belong to a certain nation, but the case of who inhabited it was faaaar different and the history that was formed in its borders wasn't in fact created by those two countries that argue all the time nowadays

BUT, we are sure that after Friderick I attacked Austria and took Wrocław in 1741 it started to be germanized at much faster rate and when it became part of Germany itself - vast majorty of its inhabitants started to speak this "normal" German.


Sorry, but this poem is simply witten in the local dialect, which was called "Kräutermundart" and one of 5 or 6 Silesian dialects. I'm from neighbouring Upper Lusatia, and my own dialect is very closely related. Many words sound almost the same. The dialect was of course spoken until 1945. If you don't believe it I can provide some sound files.

And FYI: the German settlers arrived already during the 13th century and soon formed the majority. The city doesn't became Czech but Bohemian. It wasn't Frederick I. but II., and the city was already Germanized 400 years before him. And the people back then spoke a German dialect like all other Germans too. Standard German is a story of the 19th century.
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Old November 24th, 2009, 12:17 AM   #287
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And FYI: the German settlers arrived already during the 13th century and soon formed the majority. The city doesn't became Czech but Bohemian. It wasn't Frederick I. but II., and the city was already Germanized 400 years before him. And the people back then spoke a German dialect like all other Germans too. Standard German is a story of the 19th century.
FYI: As far as I know the German settlers didn't form a real majority untill 1620 when Czech or Bohemia (as you wish to call it although I don't see any real difference) became part of Habsburg monarchy. Then in fact we can say it was germanised. I can't actually believe I could read something that was propaganda to polonize the history of this place. But, well, I don't neglect it could be so. Many strange books were written between 1945 to 1990.

Edit: Ok, the books were: Kultura językowa na Śląsku, 1949, Onomastyka, Wrocław 1955, Tysiącletnia ostoja polszczyzny śląskiej, 1966, Nazwy miejscowe dzisiejszego Wrocławia i dawnego okręgu wrocławskiego, 1976.

No more questions...
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Old November 24th, 2009, 09:41 AM   #288
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marek_VF View Post
FYI: As far as I know the German settlers didn't form a real majority untill 1620 when Czech or Bohemia (as you wish to call it although I don't see any real difference) became part of Habsburg monarchy. Then in fact we can say it was germanised. I can't actually believe I could read something that was propaganda to polonize the history of this place. But, well, I don't neglect it could be so. Many strange books were written between 1945 to 1990.

Edit: Ok, the books were: Kultura językowa na Śląsku, 1949, Onomastyka, Wrocław 1955, Tysiącletnia ostoja polszczyzny śląskiej, 1966, Nazwy miejscowe dzisiejszego Wrocławia i dawnego okręgu wrocławskiego, 1976.

No more questions...

Yes, this was typical propaganda from the Commies back then. Buy some new books and you get a totally different picture. Many new Polish books are better than most German books btw.. If you are really interested in the history of Wroclaw/Breslau you should buy the Encyklopedia Wrocławia. If you want to know more about the Commie propaganda and the time between 1945 and 1990 read Thums "Obce Miasto. Wrocław 1945". And visit the exhibition in the Wroclaw palace. The exhibition guide is also worth buying.
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Old November 24th, 2009, 06:30 PM   #289
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anyway, for obvious reasons, both sides want to promote their own propaganda. How did we get on this OT, something about bricks sent to Warsaw from Wroclaw I believe. Anyway, we're all in a free Europe without borders pretty much and history is history. Let's move forward, no doubt German economic prowess will help lead Europe towards something better as opposed to Stalin and Hitlers dystopic, twisted versions o the future.
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Old November 27th, 2009, 03:55 AM   #290
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Warsaw during the massacre,planned destruction of the million city of Warsaw (85% of the buildings had been destroyed).
1.08 1944 -1945 17.01
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7LSRGURKd4
song title My Warsaw

(...)
My Warsaw, My Warsaw
I still cry when I see You
(...)
I do not know will I be able to see you tomorrow...

(...)




Quote:
Originally Posted by Darhet View Post
Warsaw Rising Mound

Mound heaped up after WW2. Built using rubble from Warsaw. (In 1945, after the bombing, the revolts, the fighting, and the demolition had ended, most of Warsaw lay in ruins.-85%). In 1994 Ex-Home Army soldiers placed 15 meter monument of Fighting Poland sign. High about 31 meter.





Last edited by Darhet; November 27th, 2009 at 04:27 AM.
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Old November 27th, 2009, 06:31 AM   #291
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We should never forget as we look to the future.
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Old December 2nd, 2009, 01:44 AM   #292
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Warsaw the before war, before the destruction of the city of a million!

Warsaw's prewar population 1938: 1,300,000
Jewish population about 30 percent of the city's total population.
Poles population about 70 percent of the city's total population.

Warsaw-summer1938 , a traffic.























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Old December 2nd, 2009, 01:51 AM   #293
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukay View Post
On a more optimistic note, two palaces destroyed during WWII will be soon rebuild . This is the most representative square in Warsaw and now it really doesnt look like much, but after this it shoud look awesome!

co to kurwa jest? Naprawde chcą tak rozjebać i zmienić na nowoczesne ścierwo? żal
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Old December 2nd, 2009, 02:03 AM   #294
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Hi!I am a member of this group FRW
FRW:
(Association for urban and aesthetic development of the city of Warsaw
http://www.frw.fc.pl/




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Originally Posted by Spellshock View Post
co to kurwa jest? Naprawdę chcą tak rozjebać i zmienić na nowoczesne ścierwo? żal
To nie nasz plan-This is not our plan.


We showed our own project:

This is our project,

http://www.forumrozwoju.waw.pl/placpilsudskiego/

http://www.forumrozwoju.waw.pl/placpilsudskiego/


Last edited by Darhet; December 2nd, 2009 at 02:25 AM.
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Old December 2nd, 2009, 07:28 PM   #295
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Thank you Darhet. I have never seen these pictures before, but they really give a feeling for the energy of the city prior to the massacre and annihilation of Warsaw.

BTW, the 30% Jews you spoke of were quite often if not in most case ethnic Poles of the Jewish faith or who had one or more Jewish ancestors along with many non-Jews in their family tree. I know that the Nazis identified them differently, ethnically speaking they are not a seprate race.
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Old December 3rd, 2009, 01:33 AM   #296
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darhet View Post
Warsaw the before war, before the destruction of the city of a million!
1930s:





































Last edited by Darhet; December 3rd, 2009 at 02:25 AM.
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Old December 3rd, 2009, 02:22 AM   #297
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Warsaw in 1945... look at that...



WARSAW UPRISING (1944 /08/09/10):

The city must completely disappear from the surface of the earth and serve only as a transport station for the Wehrmacht. No stone can remain standing. Every building must be razed to its foundation.
SS chief Heinrich Himmler, October 17, SS officers' conference
Warsaw has to be pacified, that is, razed to the ground.
Adolf Hitler, 1944
Those estimates where later raised to$ 64 billions2009


Expulsion of civilians
In 1944 a large transit camp (Durchgangslager) was constructed in Pruszków, in the Train Repair Shops (Zakłady Naprawcze Taboru Kolejowego), to house the evacuees expelled from Warsaw by the Nazis. In the course of the Warsaw Uprising and its suppression, the Germans deported approximately 550,000 of the city’s residents and approximately 100,000 civilians from its outskirts, sending them to this Durchgangslager 121 (Dulag 121), a transit camp.



Planned destruction of Warsaw,Looting and destruction of buildings 1944 10oct/11nov/12dec- 1945. jan .17
After the remaining population had been expelled, the Germans started the destruction of the remains of the city. Special groups of German engineers were dispatched throughout the city in order to burn and demolish the remaining buildings.




WARSAW -January-FEBRUARY 1945


In the central districts of the city, no one lived........

Warsaw was no longer a city


Warsaw had about 160 000 ..only population in district of prag is a borough of Warsaw located on the east bank of the Vistula River.




















[IMG]http://pro.******************/U1038690AINP.jpg?size=67&uid={6a4d3883-ccc7-4eb9-a4c2-309333798f6a}[/IMG]
[IMG]http://pro.******************/HU040440.jpg?size=67&uid={4e9165db-b4a0-415d-a5cc-5c8f6be4ac1e}[/IMG]
[IMG]http://pro.******************/U1038685INP.jpg?size=67&uid={db482e99-ee44-4535-84cb-2feb609843d6}[/IMG]



Warsaw Ghetto was located HERE:
[IMG]http://pro.******************/U1038686INP.jpg?size=67&uid={9446c9bd-32e6-4424-98bf-e4796c345460}[/IMG]



--------------------


Warsaw in 1946 had 500 000 people,rebuilding began...

Last edited by Darhet; December 3rd, 2009 at 03:43 AM.
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Old December 3rd, 2009, 05:18 PM   #298
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Back to life,returning residents,reconstruction...

Warsaw, March, April 1945:
















The first housing estate was reconstructed 1945/1946













Warsaw 1945/1946














Warsaw the "phoenix city"
Motto: Semper invicta ("Always invincible")

2009 AD:
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Old December 3rd, 2009, 08:58 PM   #299
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Thanks Darhet. Such a heartbreaking near-end to a 700 year old civilization/city.

I can't imagine what it was like for the survivors to return to the city they grew up in, spend their days sorting through rubble, lining up in soup kitchens, living in ruins for years while watching Soviets plunder and destroy even more.

Our generation is still nervous about our neighbours, some of whom may have changed and some maybe have not. I have met Germans who know all this quite well, but some who don't. For us, it's not a matter making them feel bad its just a matter of respect and understanding so that it DOES NOT happpen again.

Last edited by Urbanista1; December 6th, 2009 at 06:36 PM.
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Old December 5th, 2009, 02:07 AM   #300
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darhet View Post
Warsaw the before war, before the destruction of the city of a million!

Warsaw's prewar population 1938: 1,300,000
Jewish population about 30 percent of the city's total population.
Poles population about 70 percent of the city's total population.

Warsaw-summer1938 , a traffic.






















I can't believe how normal life was. It's shocking to think of what happened next.
But Warsaw's back!
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