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Old December 5th, 2009, 05:55 PM   #301
JValjean
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Reading the comments in this thread I wonder whether the Polish expatriates in North America (or Americans/Canadians with Polish roots) are even more nationalistic than the Poles living in Poland!
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Old December 5th, 2009, 08:52 PM   #302
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where??

So we shoudn't show what happedned to our capital city? Germans are the same way nationalistic that we are and rest of nations in Europe. Nothing new.
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Old December 5th, 2009, 11:32 PM   #303
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Important is that now we live (Germans and Poles) in better times
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Old December 5th, 2009, 11:55 PM   #304
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukaszek89 View Post
where??
here for example:
Quote:
Originally Posted by rychlik View Post
... Bastard Germans won't have the last laugh.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lukaszek89 View Post
So we shoudn't show what happedned to our capital city? Germans are the same way nationalistic that we are and rest of nations in Europe. Nothing new.
Honestly, I do think that the Polish society is probably more nationalistic than the German one. And this fact - as I see it - is quite logical if you think about it. We, the Germans were (are?) the bad guys, the Nazis and so everything what was (is) linked with our national heritage had been regarded as something suspicious for the last decades. For you Poles it´s completely different - (even if It would be interesting to analyze the Polish politics between the two world wars) - but that's not the point at all and of course you can put all the pictures you like.

But at the end I ask myself how and when we will finally together be able to build this thing called Europe!

In my point of view you Poles are still too much fixed with the demons of the past resulting in anti-German and also in anti-Russian tendencies in your foreign policy especially with the Kaczynski brothers.
In Germany for example nobody really cares about Erika Steinbach but in Poland she's some kind of reborn Antichrist, a witch or something like that. This way of reflection in Polish media is beyond rationalism!

Sorry for the lots of words perhaps I had exceptionally (of course!) one red wine or whisky too much tonight ;-)

Cześć!
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Old December 6th, 2009, 12:24 AM   #305
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Hello everyone,
I am new to this forum. Thank you for having created this great thread. I first learned about the systematic destruction of Warsaw last year, and I've been fascinated with learning more about Warsaw ever since. It's truly remarkable how Warsaw rose from the ashes like a phoenix and was rebuilt.

I wanted to ask you guys, what is the current status of the reconstruction of the Saxon palace and Bruhl palace? Is the reconstruction still in progress, or has it been halted or postponed?
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Old December 6th, 2009, 01:20 AM   #306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JValjean View Post
here for example:

But at the end I ask myself how and when we will finally together be able to build this thing called Europe!


Cześć!
Hallo!
I think that we can now and ...
.... remember!Warsaw is not seeking to recover money for damage (it is 65$....bln !)

Quote:
Hello everyone,
I am new to this forum. Thank you for having created this great thread. I first learned about the systematic destruction of Warsaw last year, and I've been fascinated with learning more about Warsaw ever since. It's truly remarkable how Warsaw rose from the ashes like a phoenix and was rebuilt.

I wanted to ask you guys, what is the current status of the reconstruction of the Saxon palace and Bruhl palace? Is the reconstruction still in progress, or has it been halted or postponed?
Hi!

The project is on hold until 2012 because there are other big investments in Warsaw (like metro-rapid transit system, bridges, new wastewater treatment plant )

Last edited by Darhet; December 6th, 2009 at 01:27 AM.
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Old December 6th, 2009, 01:41 AM   #307
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JValjean View Post
Reading the comments in this thread I wonder whether the Polish expatriates in North America (or Americans/Canadians with Polish roots) are even more nationalistic than the Poles living in Poland!
I'm very patriotic. And why the hell shouldn't I be?
I know people of Italian descent in Canada that still refer to themselves as Italians first and not Canadians- and they were born here!
Chinks in Toronto don't want to learn English- stick mainly with their own. I won't even mention Indians or Muslims. Poland is not China or a third world country. It's a great, up and coming European country with a history that the best Hollywood screenwriter couldn't make up if he wanted to. Poles are brave and they rebuilt the country and capital with their own given hands.
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Old December 6th, 2009, 03:28 PM   #308
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^

That's exactly what he was talking about. Keep the nationalist pamplethics to yourself.
We're living in the 21st century already.


And as a general note: Keep the politics out of this thread or I'll see myself urged to close it!
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Old December 6th, 2009, 05:27 PM   #309
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Sometimes conversations naturally lead that way. Could be human nature.
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Old December 6th, 2009, 06:51 PM   #310
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JValjean View Post
here for example:




Honestly, I do think that the Polish society is probably more nationalistic than the German one. And this fact - as I see it - is quite logical if you think about it. We, the Germans were (are?) the bad guys, the Nazis and so everything what was (is) linked with our national heritage had been regarded as something suspicious for the last decades. For you Poles it´s completely different - (even if It would be interesting to analyze the Polish politics between the two world wars) - but that's not the point at all and of course you can put all the pictures you like.

But at the end I ask myself how and when we will finally together be able to build this thing called Europe!

In my point of view you Poles are still too much fixed with the demons of the past resulting in anti-German and also in anti-Russian tendencies in your foreign policy especially with the Kaczynski brothers.
In Germany for example nobody really cares about Erika Steinbach but in Poland she's some kind of reborn Antichrist, a witch or something like that. This way of reflection in Polish media is beyond rationalism!

Sorry for the lots of words perhaps I had exceptionally (of course!) one red wine or whisky too much tonight ;-)

Cześć!
Hi JValjean,

Poles and Germans are building Europe together and yes there are demons that still need to be dealt with and they come even more when people like Steinbach open their mouths. You're right I think the media and the Kaczynskis don't help matters and no sane Pole should vote based on such media hype and the paranoias of the Kaczynskis, but Poles are still nervous.

Basically, Poles would like to consistently hear from Germans something like this: we remember, we are sorry, we respect what your nation has gone through, let us be friends and please accept our hand up...now, let's move on. I don;t mean everyday everytime a German meets a Pole. I met a nice German from Bremen in Toronto this weekend and we talked about Poland, Germany but mostly Europe without even mentioning WWII and our tragic Warsaw,

instead of, yah. yah yah whatever, we know about WWII but you did things to Germans and maybe even murdered millions of Germans too (what?) and you took OUR cities etc etc a la Steinbach, then people in Poland and outside get nervous.

Believe me we all want is to move on and focus on the big work/project of Europe, but Steinbach et al don't help.

Poles outside Poland seem more patriotic because they're command of English is generally better but also because they don't interact with Germans daily and maybe as a result are more fixated on history. Also, Germans outside Germany are also more patriotic.

I can appreciate how hard it must be to be German always being blamed for being the bad guys, all those Holocaust and Nazi films that Hollywood keeps producing as reminders and then all your European neigbhbours who blame you for everything.

Being Polish is not easy either. We have been attacked, plundered and destroyed repeatedly by Russians, Prussians, Germans, Austro-Hungarians, Tatars etc. Why, because they need land for expansion, because our culture and language and our need to exist were in the way of bigger, grander plans. The big reason we have been having such a hard time reorganizaing our country is because of the dismemberment of Poland orchestrated by the German-born czarina Catherine the Great that divided Poles among three empires. We often ask ourselves, why, what have we done? Poland was always a very tolerant, multi-cultural state that never attacked another country and we even defended Vienna against the Turks. We do have faults, we could have treated some minorities and ethnic groups to the east metter, but they weren't that good to us either.

So, the Polish psyche is a anxious, distrustful one. BTW, just this September the Russian army simulated an attack on Poland - how do you think that made us feel. After Russia, attacked, destroyed, plundered and occupied us for the last 50 years, murdering our intellectual class in Katyn, they still need to think of how to attack us now, because it still isn't enough for Russia. Destroying Poland is still one of their biggest supranational compulsion like heroine to a junky. How do you live next to a neighbour like that? So, it's not easy being Polish and if we get angry sometimes, please understand.

I apologize if I'm getting too emotional - our family has a lot of war baggage. If there is one thing that all Poles and even the Kaczynskis can agree on it is that Poland wants to embrace and be embraced by Europe and we certainly want peace with our eastern neighbour Russia.

Finally, a little word of wisdom, people think about the past when the present is not very good.

Poles have been subjected to economic shock therapy in the 90's and constant readjustment ever since and have a huge task rebuilding Poland to make it function like a normal country while spending so many months of the year working outside Poland to make ends meet missing their families and friends very much. The lives of Poles today is getting better but is not on a par with Germany or othern "normal" countries yet. When the reconstruction is done and they feel safe, secure and have enough more or less, the demons will go to sleep ...as long as people like Steinbach and certain elements in Russia keep quiet and don't wake them.

The day Poles and Germans and all Europeans can lock arms and observe the August 1st Warsaw Uprising anniversary as a shared, solemn European experience without regard for who did what will be a big step all of us. Would love to see you in Warsaw next August 1.

schöne Grüße

Last edited by Urbanista1; December 7th, 2009 at 04:32 PM.
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Old December 7th, 2009, 01:08 AM   #311
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Warsaw in 1956 ad-
12 Years after the destruction...
Still Rebuilding....
Some districts lay in ruins...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xn7O5XqjTU
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Old December 7th, 2009, 09:29 PM   #312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rychlik View Post

Sometimes conversations naturally lead that way. Could be human nature.
Could be you being a nationalist prick
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Old December 7th, 2009, 09:45 PM   #313
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Oddly enough, the weak sense of national identity in Canada either leads to extreme nationalism in some cases or extreme globalism. National chauvinism and pride are two different things ideally. Unfortunately, insecurity and a toubled history seems to promote the former in some.

Anyway, nationalism is not the point of this thread and if anything reconciliation and information may prevail. Warsaw does stir up emotions for better or worse.
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Old December 8th, 2009, 12:20 AM   #314
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I can't recall who told me this or if it is true but did the Poles dismantle some abandoned german towns for their building materials and used them in the reconstruction of Warsaw?
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人は何かの犠牲なしに何も得ることはできない。何かを得るためには同等の代価が必要になる。それが、生活における等価交換の原則だ。その頃僕らは、それが世界の真実だと信じていた。時間は、最も貴重な資源である。だから、誰の時間もあなたは無駄にしてはいけないし、誰もが他の人の時間を無駄にしないでください。
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Old December 8th, 2009, 02:42 AM   #315
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Well bricks were taken away from ruins of Wrocław for sure.
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Old December 8th, 2009, 01:55 PM   #316
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But it's rather unclear how many of them actually reached Warsaw.
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Old December 8th, 2009, 07:54 PM   #317
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This is from wikipedia, but provides details of planned destruction of Warsaw and the Pabst Plan. I have studied both and can attest to its overall accuracy:

***This is posted for historic fact and not to stir up any animosity***



"New German city of Warsaw" (The Pabst Plan) – the project began under the direction Friedrich Pabst from February 6, 1940, authorship of Nazi architects: Huberta Gross and Otto Nurnberger

Planned destruction of Warsaw
The city of Warsaw was nearly destroyed in a planned way by Nazi Germany after the fall of the Warsaw Uprising in 1944.

“ The city must completely disappear from the surface of the earth and serve only as a transport station for the Wehrmacht. No stone can remain standing. Every building must be razed to its foundation.
SS chief Heinrich Himmler, October 17, SS officers' conference[1]
Warsaw has to be pacified, that is, razed to the ground.

Pre-war plan of destruction

Destruction of the Polish capital was already planned before its final destruction in 1944, even before the start of World War II. On 20 June 1939 while Adolf Hitler was visiting an architectural bureau in Würzburg am Main, his attention was captured by a project of a future German town – "Neue deutsche Stadt Warschau". In plan called the Pabst Plan Warsaw was to be turned into a provincial German city. The project was soon to be included as a part of the great germanization plan of the East, the infamous Generalplan Ost. The aftermath of the failure of the Warsaw Uprising was a good time for Hitler to start realization his pre-war conception.[3]

Warsaw Uprising aftermath
[edit] Expulsion of civilians


In 1944 a large transit camp (Durchgangslager) was constructed in Pruszków, in the Train Repair Shops (Zakłady Naprawcze Taboru Kolejowego), to house the evacuees expelled from Warsaw by the Nazis. In the course of the Warsaw Uprising and its suppression, the Germans deported approximately 550,000 of the city’s residents and approximately 100,000 civilians from its outskirts, sending them to this Durchgangslager 121 (Dulag 121), a transit camp. The security police and the SS segregated the deportees and decided their fate. Approximately 650,000 people passed through the Pruszków camp in August, September, and October. Approximately 55,000 were sent to concentration camps, including 13,000 to Auschwitz. They included people from a variety of social classes and occupations (government officials, scholars, artists, physicians, merchants, and blue-collar workers), in varying physical condition (the injured, the sick, invalids, and pregnant women), and of various ages, from infants only a few weeks old to the elderly, aged 86 or more. In a few cases, these were also people of different ethnic backgrounds, including Jews living on “Aryan papers.”

Some people hid in the deserted city. They were called Robinsons (after Robinson Crusoe) or cavemen. Germans called them rats and killed them if they were found within the city ruins. The best known Robinson of Warsaw was Władysław Szpilman (The Pianist). Chaim Itsl Goldstein has also published his memoirs The Bunker.

Looting and destruction of buildings

After the remaining population had been expelled, the Germans started the destruction of the remains of the city.[5] Special groups of German engineers were dispatched throughout the city in order to burn and demolish the remaining buildings. According to German plans, after the war Warsaw was to be turned into nothing more but a military transit station,[1] .[6] The demolition squads used flame-throwers and explosives to methodically destroy house after house. They paid special attention to historical monuments, Polish national archives and places of interest: nothing was to be left of what used to be a city.[2]

Bank Polski in 2004, bearing the scars of the Uprising. The lighter-colored bricks were added during the building's reconstruction after 2003.By January 1945, about 85% of the buildings had been destroyed – 10% as a result of the September 1939 campaign and other combat, 15% the earlier Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, 25% the Uprising, and 35% systematic German actions after the uprising.[5]

Material losses were estimated at 10,455 buildings, 923 historical buildings (94%), 25 churches, 14 libraries including the National Library, 81 primary schools, 64 high schools, University of Warsaw and Warsaw University of Technology, and most of the historical monuments.[5] Almost a million inhabitants lost all of their possessions.[5] The exact losses of private and public property, including pieces of art, other cultural artifacts and scientific artifacts, is unknown but considered to be substantial. Studies done in the late 1940s estimated total damage at about US$30 billion.[7] In 2004, the President of Warsaw, Lech Kaczyński (now President of Poland) established a historical commission to estimate losses to public property alone that were inflicted on the city by German authorities. The commission estimated the losses to be at least $31.5 billion.[8] Those estimates where later raised to $45 billion and in 2005, to $54.6 billions (all equated to 2004 dollars).[9]

Destruction was so bad that to rebuild much of Warsaw, a detailed landscape of the city which had been commissioned by the government before the Partitions of Poland (18th century), painted by two Italian artists Marcello Bacciarelli and Bernardo Bellotto who ran an arts school there as well, had to be used as a model to recreate most of the buildings.

Notable dates in the history of destruction of Warsaw:
September, 4, Royal Castle
October, Collection of manuscripts from the National Library of Poland burned
December, 18, Brühl Palace
December, 27, Saxon Palace
December, Łazienki Palace burned, about 1 000 holes drilled in its walls, the construction however preserved
Alfred Mensebach and a number of camera teams documented the destruction.

The city of Warsaw was rebuilt, with the Old Town being thoroughly reconstructed, and the New Town being partially restored to its former state.

[edit] Notable damaged or destroyed structures
Warsaw Old Town
Royal Castle
Copper-Roof Palace
Saxon Palace
Piłsudski Square
Krasiński Palace
Brühl Palace
Kotowski Palace
Ostrogski Palace
Sapieha Palace
Palace of the Four Winds
Potocki Palace
Mostowski Palace
Staszic Palace
Tyszkiewicz Palace
Kazimierzowski Palace
Ujazdów Castle
Zygmunt's Column
St. Alexander's Church
St. John's Cathedral
Jesuit Church
St. Mary's Church
Holy Cross Church
St. Casimir's Church
St. Hyacinth's Church
St. Martin's Church
Holy Trinity Church
Field Cathedral of the Polish Army
Załuski Library

The Pabst Plan (German: Neue deutsche Stadt Warschau, "New German city of Warsaw") - was a nazi urban plan to reconstruct Warsaw after its near-total destruction in 1944.

The plan
According to the Pabst Plan, prior to the Warsaw Uprising, Warsaw was to be turned into a provincial German city.

On 20 June 1939 while Adolf Hitler was visiting an architectural bureau in Würzburg am Main, his attention was captured by a project of a future German town – Warsaw (German: Warschau, Polish: Warszawa).

The project was soon to be included as a part of the great germanization plan of the East, the infamous Generalplan Ost. What is worth noting here, is the fact that the destruction of Polish capital was already planned before its final destruction in 1944, even before the start of World War II.

On October 8, 1939 western areas of Poland were annexed by the Third Reich and later on October 12, 1939 the east areas of Poland was incorporated into the General Government by Hitler’s decrees. The capital of the Gubernia was to be set in Kraków (Krakau, Cracow) for security reasons. Occupying German elites were clearly afraid of unsubdued Warsaw, calling the Polish capital the City of Bandits (Banditenstadt Warschau).

On 6 February 1940 German President of the town Dr. Dangel gave a very unusual gift to the General Gubernator Dr. Hans Frank. The gift was a full documentation of the new German town Warsaw (Neue deutsche Stadt Warschau), so-called Pabst Plan, prepared by German architects Hubert Gross and Otto Nurnberger.

This new town was to be built in place of destroyed Polish capital. The plan had been prepared before World War II in Würzburg am Main and after the start of military operations and the fall of the capital into German hands the project was updated, incorporating the city's partial destruction in the September offensive of 1939.

The project included 15 separate plans and photos, and solid pre-build documentation. Some parts of the project that were showing Warsaw’s development from the half of XVII century until the year 1935 were based on Polish documentation from 1935 and presumably on scientific sources prepared for Warsaw’s Territorial Development of Communication and Transportation by Prof. O. Sosnowski. All these sources were skillfully extracted from the source long before the war. At early stage thanks to German conning based on false pretension of doing a scientific research, the German planners covered the hidden agenda necessary for creating such a plan.

Among all the pages of the project the most important is colored plan of the future town which was created by German architects in 1:20 000 scale, titled: Die neue deutsche Stadt Warschau.

The plan of the new town covered a 6 km² built-up area plus 1 km² of the centuries-old Warsaw’s Prague district, for a total of 7 km² area, with parks and green areas bringing to a total of 15 km². The 7 km² of buildings was just 1/20 of the existing Polish capital city and was very different from the actual existing road network of 1939.

The "German Varsavia" was planned to be a quite new, provincial German town built on the crossroad of German highways and railroad networks. Of the original Polish capital, only the remains of the Old Town district (without the Polish King’s Castle, of course), and modified parts of the Vistula riverside buildings would have been saved. King’s Baths Palace (pl. Łazienki Królewskie) and Belvedere (pl. Belweder) were also to be saved.

The whole town center was to be built into a net of narrow, picturesque streets, resembling a planning of a typical German town. The modern and wide Polish capital avenues (like Ulica Marszałkowska, Twarda, Mokotowska, Dzika, Oś Saska, Oś Stanisławowska) would have been erased forever with all their monumental and beautiful buildings and palaces. The plan aimed at creating a new German town for 130,000 exclusively ethnic German inhabitants.

It must be mentioned here that Warsaw’s population in 1935 was around 1.3 million, consisting of Poles, Jews and other minorities. Therefore, to put the new urbanization plan to work all the inhabitants had to be removed.

German ingenuity and precision resulted in implementing the plan in stages. One of the parts for the plan, so-called Demolition of Polish town and Building of German town (Abbau der Polen-Stadt und der Aufbau der Deutschen Stadt), included a list of the Polish capital’s centers of life destined for destruction, put in chronological order based on planned liquidation date. In the interim stage, the Jewish Ghetto was planned to accommodate around 30,000 of the Jewish origin inhabitants of the capital. German planners assumed to remove the Jews (Judenaussiedlung) from the area of around 482 hm² and put them in an area which was 3.5 times smaller, i.e. 143 hm² (Judenviertel). In the so-called Small Plan (Kleine Planung), the population of Warsaw would be limited to 500,000 people.

German planners decided to use the destructions by bombings and fires during the September 1939 seizure of the city as a pretext for the urbanistics changes. Another part of the plan included detailed map of anticipated destruction showing almost all buildings destroyed coincidently according to the original plan. Therefore, Warsaw was to be rebuilt anew, German way.

In reality only 10 percent of buildings was destroyed in 1939, with total civil and military losses of around 12,000 killed and 66,000 wounded.

The next step for decreasing of the original population of the city was the systematic displacement of people captured and destined for either slave labor in the Third Reich or extermination in concentration and labor camps. Among the 2 857 500 Poles working as slave labor in Third Reich during World War II, a significant percentage was composed of Warsaw and Warsaw province’s inhabitants.

The next step of Warsaw’s population extermination was launched in the autumn of 1942. On October 9, 1942 Heinrich Himmler ordered the creation of Warsaw concentration camp (Konzentrationslager Warschau - KL Warschau) which consisted of Koło district camp (Kriegsgenangenenlager Warschau, 1939), two other camps in the proximity of Dworzec Zachodni (Western Train Station, 1942), Gęsia camp (Geese Street Camp, 1943), Bonifraterska camp (Bonifraterska Street Camp, 1943).

KL Warschau was functioning until August 28, 1944 when the German government of the city ordered evacuation of its prisoners into the Third Reich, for the fear that the ongoing Warsaw Uprising might result in freeing them. The prisoners were transported to concentration camps in Third Reich: Dachau, Landsberg, Muhldorf, Kaufering, Gross-Rosen and Ravensbrück.
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Old December 8th, 2009, 08:14 PM   #318
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spiralshaman View Post
Hello everyone,
I am new to this forum. Thank you for having created this great thread. I first learned about the systematic destruction of Warsaw last year, and I've been fascinated with learning more about Warsaw ever since. It's truly remarkable how Warsaw rose from the ashes like a phoenix and was rebuilt.

I wanted to ask you guys, what is the current status of the reconstruction of the Saxon palace and Bruhl palace? Is the reconstruction still in progress, or has it been halted or postponed?

Hi Spiralshaman and welcome,

The reconstruction of the Saxon Palace was halted for two reasons: change in political regime in Warsaw and priorities from rebuilding past to building a city of the future under Hanna Gronkiewicz-Waltz; and 2) because while excavating the ruined basements they were discovered to have great historic value and therefore could not be destroyed for an underground parking lot. For this reason, the plans had to be changed and a new public tender had to be issued for the re-designed since the it exceeded the terms of the original tender. The redesign began but was then halted until 2010 or so. The priorities right now are new museums, bridges, subways, roads, new public squares etc.
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Old December 8th, 2009, 11:52 PM   #319
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Urbanista, are you saying Gronkiewicz- Waltz doesn't want the Palace rebuilt? I know their priorities are the Euro 2012 but the Saski is such a prestigious building.
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Old December 9th, 2009, 12:13 AM   #320
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War sucks. Poles can be proud of Warsaw (been there 2 years ago)
Nothing more to say.
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