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Old April 25th, 2005, 09:13 AM   #21
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LET IT BE KNOWN THAT THE WEHRMACHT WAS CONDUCTING WAR GAMES JUST ACROSS THE POLISH-GERMAN BORDER PRIOR TO SEPT. 1 , 1939 SHOWING CLEARLY THE PREMEDITATED INTENT OF AN INVASION . ALSO NAZI U-BOATS WERE REGULARLY OPERATING ALONG THE LENGTH OF THE US ATLANTIC SEABOARD FROM THE CARRIBEAN ALL THE WAY UP TO NEW YORK CITY . MOREOVER , FUTURE LUFTWAFFE AIRCRAFT DESIGNS INCLUDED MASSIVE 8 -ENGINED BOMBERS / TRANSPORTS CAPABLE OF CROSSING TRANSCONTINENTAL DISTANCES . SURELY ,THESE PLANES WERE BY NO MEANS INTENDED TO MAKE A SHORT HOP JUST ACROSS THE ENGLISH CHANNEL . HITLER WAS OBVIOUSLY BENT ON TAKING HIS HATE- FUELLED WAR BEYOND THE CONFINES OF EUROPE AND OUT TO THE OTHER SIDE OF THE ATLANTIC. CAN YOU IMAGINE IF HIS V-ROCKET PROGRAMS AS WELL HAS HIS HEAVY WATER RESEARCH PLANT IN NORWAY WERE NOT STOPPED ? NAZI GERMANY COULD WELL HAVE BEEN THE FIRST COUNTRY TO NUKE ANY NATION WHO STOOD ITS WAY ! FOR ALL ITS BLOODLUST , NAZI GERMANY SUFFERED IN EQUAL MEASURE IN PLACES LIKE HAMBURG , DRESDEN , BERLIN AS WELL AS OTHER CIVILIAN CENTRES OF POPULATION THAT THE RAF BOMBER COMMAND AS WELL AS THE USAAF 8TH AIRFORCE HAD TARGETED ROUND-THE -CLOCK . ON TOP OF ALL THAT , THE MYTH SURROUNDING THE INVINCIBLE , PURE ,ARYAN MASTER RACE WAS EFFECTIVELY SHATTERED WHEN UPON ENTERING BERLIN , HORDES OF RAMPAGING SOVIETS SYSTEMATICALLY ALTERED THE GERMAN GENETIC STRUCTURE BY WHOLESALE VIOLATION OF ITS WOMENFOLK ( BERLIN , Anthony Beevor ). ALLIED -OCCUPIED GERMANY WAS SO MUCH ON ITS KNEES THAT A WOMAN RESORTED TO THE OLDEST PROFESSION IN THE WORLD IN EXCHANGE FOR A PACK OF CIGARETTES. THE WANTON DESTRUCTION OF WARSAW WAS BORNE OUT OF DEEP-SEATED HATRED OF ONE MANIAC TOWARDS HIS FELLOWMEN . LET US NOT BE LIKE HITLER. LET US PROTECT AND CHERISH THE PEACE INSTEAD OF PROPAGATING HITLER'S LEGACY OF HATRED .

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Old April 25th, 2005, 12:24 PM   #22
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OK...
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Old April 25th, 2005, 03:40 PM   #23
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Vars, I will try to answer your question.


Quote:
And the lingering question is still there without answer: why did the Germans hate our city so much? Why did they dedicate so many persistent efforts to wipe it off the face of the earth, step by step, phase by phase, for more than 5 years of military aggression and shockingly brutal occupation?

Every time a meet contemporary Germans here, I have the recurrent thought that I should ask them that question, just to know their opinion and what they feel about it. I never did it so far though.

If I am not mistaken, Warsaw was the city with the largest Jewish community in Europe or even in the world at that time. The Jews in Warsaw were so numerous and influential that the whole city had a strong Jewish character. Since the German Nazi leadership advocated a very aggressive anti-Semitic point of view it seems very reasonable to me that Warsaw was an object of immense hate.

Furthermore you also have to consider the German point of view regarding Poland during that time. Foremost the Nazi leadership but also many ordinary Germans felt a very deep antipathy towards Poland. Unlike it is nowadays sometimes portrayed in the media, the antipathy was not mainly the result of some abstract feeling of racial superiority. However, there was an honest believe among many Germans that Poland is a country that aims to destroy German culture and physical presence in some areas or even entirely! This perception was particularly popular since the end of World War I when the German Empire had lost large parts of its territory to Poland. Although, the perception that Germany is actually the victim of Polish aggression has already existed before! In the minds of the ultra-nationalistic Nazis the antipathy towards Poland was going so far, that the ultimate annihilation of the Polish nation has become a goal. The total destruction of Warsaw – the political, cultural and economical centre of Poland – would stand for the destruction of the entire Polish Nation!

What might be also of relevance is the following fact. Unlike many other cities or areas in Poland, Warsaw didn’t have any historical and cultural meaning to Germany! It never had been part of Germany or Austria-Hungary. In addition to that, there has also never been any significant German or Austrian minority (like in Lodz for instance) in Warsaw. This fact might be of significance, if you consider the fact that many Polish cities were meant to get “re-Germanized” and fully integrated into the German nation!
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Old October 19th, 2005, 04:33 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke84
I love Warsaw for the same reason. I think it is a fascinating city for it's history and for what it went through. The old town and many important buildings were reconstructed painstakingly but you also need to know that only a fraction of what was destroyed was actually reconstruced. Most of Old Warsaw was lost forever and actually Communists destroyed many buildings which did survive. Many buildings in Warsaw were reconstructed in a much simpler form and Communists made sure that they will look more socialist. In fact they went so far as to strip surviving buildings of of their decorations.

I can provide you with a few examples.

St. Alexander





And today














More drastic example



This one survived untoutched...but the communists thought it looks too fancy so they made it look more socialist in 1960s. This happened to lots of buildings.



How about this. Those two palaces survived the war in a fairly good shape and could have been saved but the communists didnt think so. None of them exist today



You said : that only a fraction of what was destroyed was actually reconstruced ....

No really, I was there 1 week and a big part was reconstructed, many buildings are in restoration and many will be reconstructed in near future ...

Warsaw is very beautiful city but also the most green capital in Europe ...
A big part of old Warsaw is there ... so is great and add the new architecture with old, the all makes Warsaw very gorgeous ...

Architecture is very beautiful there, don't exaggerate ... and time when communist do with old building what you shown is finish too,
now many things after communists period is repair .. many old buildings not destroyed by 2nd war but deformed by communist are restored today, in many Warsaw's street you can see in everywhere .... so great things arrive to Warsaw today ..
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Old October 20th, 2005, 12:28 AM   #25
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^ The old town was reconstructed, also some old streets like Krakowskie Przedmiescie, also some important palaces and historic landmarks, but warsaw lost almost all of it's 19th century urban city structure. The area of Warsaw Ghetto which covered a vast part of the actuall city center was destroyed in 100% and nothing was reconstructed.

http://www.warszawa1939.pl/index.php...right.htm&r3=2

This is a photoplan of warsaw city center and the Old Town in 1939, it's not compleate but you can get an over all idea. You have to click the "Kliknij Tutaj" button on the right side to enter it. The buildings which are in red were destroyed and never reconstructed, the buildings that are shown in green have been spared or reconstructed. You can click and zoom in on the actuall buldings.

Last edited by Luke84; October 21st, 2005 at 11:39 PM.
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Old October 20th, 2005, 02:25 AM   #26
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Well, it is interesting to see this thread again after a long while. I had the privilege to visit Warsaw this year and I greatly enjoyed the city.

The reconstruction of some historical sites is simply mind-boggling - the olt town square was entirely reconstructed brick by brick.
Warsaw has literally risen from the ashes. Kudos to the Polish people!
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Old October 20th, 2005, 06:54 AM   #27
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alot of stuff is being renovated all the time. if you look at the revitalization of your cities tread you can see how many buildings in warsaw are being rebuilt

im not a big fan of the current St. Alexander church. I wish they would reconstruct it
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Old October 20th, 2005, 12:01 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke84
^ The old town was reconstructed, also some old streets like Krakowskie Przedmiescie, also some important palaces and historic landmarks, but warsaw lost almost all of it's 19th century urban city structure. The area of Warsaw Ghetto which covered a vast part of the actuall city center was destroyed in 100% and nothing was reconstructed.

http://www.warszawa1939.pl/index.php...right.htm&r3=2

This is a photoplan of warsaw city center and the Old Town in 1939, it's not compleate but you can get an over all idea. You have to click the "Kliknij Tutaj" button on the right side to enter it. The buildings which are in red were destroyed and never reconstructed, the buildings that are shown in green have been spared or reconstructed. You can click and zoom in on the actuall buldings.



Many cities lost many things in Europe, concerning Warsaw the most important was reconstructed all and it's not finish because many things from 17-19 centuries will be reconstructed too ...

Now the most important to Warsaw is not to Cry because she lost her 19 centuries buildings, it's to late for this ... and even without it Warsaw each year is most and most beautiful like Berlin ... the most important for her is to become one of the most beautiful city in Europe and her challenge would be to become this without this 19 centuries architecture ... and it's possible because the city is very green, here you have so many parks like anywhere in Europe ... they are simply gorgeous ... the Lazienki park we can only dream about him in Paris for example .... the second thing, Warsaw old town is simply magnificent ... and with the new projects in modern architecture add ... to this the restoration or demolition of buildings from communist period, Warsaw has all the chances in the future to become one of the most fascinating city in Europe ... nothing is lost for Warsaw ... she's catching the modernity very quickly but with beautiful style ...

And about 19 centuries architecture that she lost her, I disagree in some points you mentioned ... ( my wife is polish, me french ) when we travel through Warsaw with our car, sorry but in many many street we saw many 19 centuries architecture ...

And for the end, I don't think that 19 centuries makes one city the most beautiful in the world, exception about Paris but entire
city is makes with this 19 cent. architecture ... and sometimes is beautiful there and sometimes is very boring to see only the same architecture with the same colors in all streets ... and you cut this entire 19 cent. architecture in Paris, what stay here after this ... only Notre Dame Cathedral ... and nothing else ... and If you regard Warsaw, here architecture from all periods and anywhere in Europeans cities you can see such a greet Marriage with old and new ... the skyline of Warsaw becomes extraordinary .... this city is full of future ... i think what what you regret so much ( 19 cent.architecture ), in the future with new architecture add the old, add the future reconstruction you will never thing again how look Warsaw before because you will in love with the new Warsaw ....
because even without you miss so much, Warsaw becomes more and more beautiful each year ... nothing is lost for her ...everything almost begin ...

Sorry for that long answer, very sorry ... but if my English will be more excellent i can write with less words ...

Sorry....
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Old October 20th, 2005, 10:07 PM   #29
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Communists were worse than war. Most sad thing is that Eastern Europe was sold after the war to USSR.
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Old October 20th, 2005, 10:48 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by angelika
Many cities lost many things in Europe, concerning Warsaw the most important was reconstructed all and it's not finish because many things from 17-19 centuries will be reconstructed too ...

Now the most important to Warsaw is not to Cry because she lost her 19 centuries buildings, it's to late for this ... and even without it Warsaw each year is most and most beautiful like Berlin ... the most important for her is to become one of the most beautiful city in Europe and her challenge would be to become this without this 19 centuries architecture ... and it's possible because the city is very green, here you have so many parks like anywhere in Europe ... they are simply gorgeous ... the Lazienki park we can only dream about him in Paris for example .... the second thing, Warsaw old town is simply magnificent ... and with the new projects in modern architecture add ... to this the restoration or demolition of buildings from communist period, Warsaw has all the chances in the future to become one of the most fascinating city in Europe ... nothing is lost for Warsaw ... she's catching the modernity very quickly but with beautiful style ...

And about 19 centuries architecture that she lost her, I disagree in some points you mentioned ... ( my wife is polish, me french ) when we travel through Warsaw with our car, sorry but in many many street we saw many 19 centuries architecture ...

And for the end, I don't think that 19 centuries makes one city the most beautiful in the world, exception about Paris but entire
city is makes with this 19 cent. architecture ... and sometimes is beautiful there and sometimes is very boring to see only the same architecture with the same colors in all streets ... and you cut this entire 19 cent. architecture in Paris, what stay here after this ... only Notre Dame Cathedral ... and nothing else ... and If you regard Warsaw, here architecture from all periods and anywhere in Europeans cities you can see such a greet Marriage with old and new ... the skyline of Warsaw becomes extraordinary .... this city is full of future ... i think what what you regret so much ( 19 cent.architecture ), in the future with new architecture add the old, add the future reconstruction you will never thing again how look Warsaw before because you will in love with the new Warsaw ....
because even without you miss so much, Warsaw becomes more and more beautiful each year ... nothing is lost for her ...everything almost begin ...

Sorry for that long answer, very sorry ... but if my English will be more excellent i can write with less words ...

Sorry....
No one is crying, the old warsaw died in 1944, im glad the old town got reconstructed ,all the important buildings but Warsaw is the city of future. Right now no buildings are being reconstructed in Warsaw.The only buildings that I know will get reconstructed are two palaces in the pilsudski square. The city is becoming more and more modern, we should preserve what is left and move on, make Warsaw a modern, european city. I dont see much sense in reconstructing everything.

Last edited by Luke84; October 21st, 2005 at 03:52 AM.
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Old October 21st, 2005, 11:42 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke84
No one is crying, the old warsaw died in 1944, im glad the old town got reconstructed ,all the important buildings but Warsaw is the city of future. Right now no buildings are being reconstructed in Warsaw.The only buildings that I know will get reconstructed are two palaces in the pilsudski square. The city is becoming more and more modern, we should preserve what is left and move on, make Warsaw a modern, european city. I dont see much sense in reconstructing everything.
Not everything, but at least the most characteristic and important buildings in the strict city centre (and not only these two palaces you mention). If you knew better Warsaw and it's history, you would see that there are still a lot of buildings and streets that sooner or later will be reconstructed, because without them the city will never be itself again.

Unlike the USA, in Europe old architecture is the essence of our cities. You can't make the city look European without reconstruction. Other Europeans know that as well - take a look at Dresden's example:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=250017
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Old October 21st, 2005, 02:31 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kanabi
Not everything, but at least the most characteristic and important buildings in the strict city centre (and not only these two palaces you mention). If you knew better Warsaw and it's history, you would see that there are still a lot of buildings and streets that sooner or later will be reconstructed, because without them the city will never be itself again.

Unlike the USA, in Europe old architecture is the essence of our cities. You can't make the city look European without reconstruction. Other Europeans know that as well - take a look at Dresden's example:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=250017
I agree with you ...
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Old October 21st, 2005, 03:56 PM   #33
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Amazing pictures....but all so familiar for Rotterdamers.....



Rotterdam .... after
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Old October 21st, 2005, 04:32 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kanabi
Not everything, but at least the most characteristic and important buildings in the strict city centre (and not only these two palaces you mention). If you knew better Warsaw and it's history, you would see that there are still a lot of buildings and streets that sooner or later will be reconstructed, because without them the city will never be itself again.

Unlike the USA, in Europe old architecture is the essence of our cities. You can't make the city look European without reconstruction. Other Europeans know that as well - take a look at Dresden's example:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=250017
But they spent a lot of money for Dresden. Poland doesn't have bunch of money and we can not afford mass scale cultural investments. Even German economy felt into recession after spending money for unprofitable investitions in East Germany.
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Old October 21st, 2005, 05:32 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kanabi
Not everything, but at least the most characteristic and important buildings in the strict city centre (and not only these two palaces you mention). If you knew better Warsaw and it's history, you would see that there are still a lot of buildings and streets that sooner or later will be reconstructed, because without them the city will never be itself again.

Unlike the USA, in Europe old architecture is the essence of our cities. You can't make the city look European without reconstruction. Other Europeans know that as well - take a look at Dresden's example:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=250017
It would be one thing if Warsaw was destroyed and that was it, you have to understand that communists rebuild Warsaw in a lot of way that prevent it from going back anymore. The streets which had the most spleanding architecture before 1944, and were considered to be the salones of the city, had been widened by the communists...Aleie Jerozolimskie and Marszalkowska to give you some idea, are at least twice as broad and there is no way to reconstruct them. Other huge streets had beein built,they didnt exist previously which compleatly changed urban setting of the city center. I'm pretty sure Aleje Jana Pawla II didnt exist before WWII but you have to ask someone from Warsaw on that one.

What you dont seem to understand is that Warsaw can't and shouldnt go back to pre 1944. One reason being that communists changed so much and the other is that we should be looking forward and not backward. I find it pointless to reconstruct everything as the reconstructions will never have as much value as the old architecture. Warsaw should focus on becoming one of the most modern cities in Europe, and wwII and communism mad that possible in a way.

I do agree with you that many buildings are going to be renowated, the ones that communists stripped down of decorations should be reconstructed as well, but the reconstruction of Warsaw is pretty much over by now. Most important places had been rebuild, some other will be like The Pilsudski squareI mentioned and I would even hope that a few more buildings were reconstructed (Kronenberg palace for example, very unlikely right now it seems), but I'm talking here about individual buildings. I really don't see the type of mass reconstruction in Warsaw that is gong on in Dresden right now. Warsaw went throught that period in 1960-70.

Marszalkowska



Zlota Street, located where Palace of Culture and Science stands today.



Bankowy square, on one side almost nothing changed



on the other...



http://www.warszawa.przedwojenna.prv.pl/

Last edited by Luke84; October 22nd, 2005 at 12:49 AM.
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Old October 21st, 2005, 05:46 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemo
Amazing pictures....but all so familiar for Rotterdamers.....



Rotterdam .... after
damn that is bad, it's litterally flat.

damn if the war didnt happen europeans could be making a killing off tourism more so then today.
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Old October 21st, 2005, 06:40 PM   #37
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/\ atleast rotterdam didnt get soviet rape for 50 years.
i feel so bad for Warsaw! it was so pretty, and to make things worse communists came and made it worse...
on a side note, 50% of buildings in Tallinn got destroyed in bombing runs... thankfully our old town wasnt hit... (well at some points it was).
Biggest damage done to Tallinn are still the commies the soviets built...
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Old October 22nd, 2005, 12:42 AM   #38
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What irritates me the most is the way many buildings got rebuilt. Going back to the oldest version and not the verios previous to WWII.











None of those exist today, a little sample






This building survived the war but was destroyed in 1973


On a more optimistic note...













www.warszawa1939.pl

Last edited by Luke84; October 22nd, 2005 at 12:56 AM.
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Old October 22nd, 2005, 02:20 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke84
On a more optimistic note, two palaces destroyed during WWII will be soon rebuild . This is the most representative square in Warsaw and now it really doesnt look like much, but after this it shoud look awesome!


Beautiful project... I wish more of this stuff would go in Central Europe, so many important buildings were lost in the war and many were purposefully not rebuilt by the communists in places like East Germany. But Warsaw's old town alone is a true testament to the value of reconstructing historic districts, destroyed in war. Berlin like Warsaw is a mostly post-war city but at least Warsaw has a lovingly restored small old town, the closest thing in Berlin is a small neighborhood the communist half heartidly rebuilt with prefab buildings in the shape of traditional architecture - but there is now a plan to rebuilt the enormous city palace, but many Berliners are opposed to it for silly reasons and it will be at least 20 years before it is realized.

Great news for Warsaw..
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Last edited by vigo80; October 22nd, 2005 at 02:28 AM.
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Old October 22nd, 2005, 02:25 AM   #40
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But they spent a lot of money for Dresden. Poland doesn't have bunch of money and we can not afford mass scale cultural investments. Even German economy felt into recession after spending money for unprofitable investitions in East Germany.

Hmmm, hardly any money was invested in the reconstruction of Dresden old buildings, neither before or after reunification. The communists wanted to build a socialist city so they bulldozed as much as they could of the city's remains and the post-reunification governments invested a lot in the eastern cites but they were mostly interested in building glass and concrete centers of commerce, there were no major reconstruction efforts financed by the government, except for a few showcase projects like the Dresden Palace. Dresden hardly has an old town even today, although its small historic section is quite impressive. Almost all of the rebuilding in Dresden in recent years has been lead by private citizens and funded by the private sector or with donations (the Frauenkirche). The government of Germany has spent money on restoring some historic buildings in the city but virtually no reconstructions have been initiated or totally funded by the government of Germany or Saxony... the Polish governments (even the communist) have done far more to restore their cities to the prewar appearence.
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Last edited by vigo80; October 22nd, 2005 at 02:31 AM.
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