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Old July 11th, 2010, 04:28 PM   #381
wolfpaw
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Damn Krauts! I'm glad they're not playing in the World Cup final
That's not fair. The Germans bombed my home city of Exeter in 1942 and large parts of the ancient centre were obliterated but I don't hold the German people responsible for it today. Plus Germany interests me a great deal. I love the art, music and architecture it has produced over the last 1000 years. The fact that the same region that produced Mozart, Beethoven, Freud, Goethe and Durer also produced Hitler and the Third Reich is fascinating. It reached both the heights of European civilisation and the absolute depths and remains for me something of an enigma.

(Still, I hope Spain wins the final. Their players are much cuter )
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Old July 14th, 2010, 12:42 AM   #382
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Warsaw-summer 1945:

















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Old July 14th, 2010, 12:49 AM   #383
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Life has returned to city center (summer 45):

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Old July 14th, 2010, 01:00 AM   #384
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i see

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Old July 14th, 2010, 01:14 AM   #385
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Warsaw had a very big problem in the spring and summer 1945 :about two hundred thousand bodies (Poles, Germans, Ukrainians, etc.) on the streets, ruins, sewers.
Fortunately, the epidemic did not broke out.

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Old July 14th, 2010, 01:30 AM   #386
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That's not fair. The Germans bombed my home city of Exeter in 1942 and large parts of the ancient centre were obliterated but I don't hold the German people responsible for it today. Plus Germany interests me a great deal. I love the art, music and architecture it has produced over the last 1000 years. The fact that the same region that produced Mozart, Beethoven, Freud, Goethe and Durer also produced Hitler and the Third Reich is fascinating. It reached both the heights of European civilisation and the absolute depths and remains for me something of an enigma.

(Still, I hope Spain wins the final. Their players are much cuter )
I hope you do not have some morbid fascination. The methods/politics behind the destruction of Warsaw and Polish life and culture is not something "fascinating" to me. Only Polish people may understand this. Also, the "great" Blitzkrieg style warfare is not something to be admired from a humanistic perspective. It's barbarism at its best and the lowest level of humanity.
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Old July 14th, 2010, 12:10 PM   #387
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I hope you do not have some morbid fascination. The methods/politics behind the destruction of Warsaw and Polish life and culture is not something "fascinating" to me. Only Polish people may understand this. Also, the "great" Blitzkrieg style warfare is not something to be admired from a humanistic perspective. It's barbarism at its best and the lowest level of humanity.
No, it's not a 'morbid fascination' It's a puzzle though: to what extent was the Third Reich a consequence of Germany's cultural magnificence in earlier centuries? Was it a consequence or was it totally unrelated? Do the highest pinnacles have to be dependent on the lowest pinnacles? I think anyone interested in Western civilisation has an obligation to question exactly how and why Germany descended into the depths of the Third Reich.

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In Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love - they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock.
Is there a correlation between high culture and barbarism? Obviously barbarism doesn't have to be associated with an advanced cultural aesthetic but I think it's an interesting question, nevertheless.
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Old July 14th, 2010, 01:12 PM   #388
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That's not fair. The Germans bombed my home city of Exeter in 1942 and large parts of the ancient centre were obliterated but I don't hold the German people responsible for it today. (...)
Frankly, the matter is much more complicated than it seems. It's much easier for you, as you don't live on a huge cemetery, while we do. Literally, there's ashes of thousands of people beneath the houses, streets, parks and squares of Warsaw.

First of all, modern Germans are completely different people so morally there's no reason to blame them for what their grandparents did. However, there are still some dangerous myths still alive in modern Germany. "Clean hands of the Wehrmacht" ("all the attrocities were committed by the evil Nazis, while the good Germans fought bravely in the Wehrmacht for their homeland"), civilians were innocent and so on. After all in 1945 Germany was a country of foresters and railway workers...

Such myths are more and more popular in English too: every time some atrocity is referenced, it's called a Nazi deed. Good or neutral stuff is attributed to Germans, while bad stuff to Nazis, as if they were some alien race or a completely different nation.

This process is a little akin to money laundering. In 1939 Germans confiscated almost all radio receivers and privately-owned cars in Poland, most of them were later distributed among German civilians (much like fur coats, furniture and other stuff stolen from Poles). And here's where the memory is whitewashed: "The Nazis stole radios, my German grandma received a radio, but she was not a Nazi whatsoever".

This is not to mean I blame modern Germans for anything. Such things are kind of painful to me nevertheless. I believe we are drifting OT here though, sorry for that.
Cheers
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Old July 15th, 2010, 02:26 AM   #389
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However, there are still some dangerous myths still alive in modern Germany. "Clean hands of the Wehrmacht" ("all the attrocities were committed by the evil Nazis, while the good Germans fought bravely in the Wehrmacht for their homeland"), civilians were innocent and so on. After all in 1945 Germany was a country of foresters and railway workers...
Seems like you're stuck in the 1960s cause these myths are no longer widespread in Germany. Everybody recognizes that the Wehrmacht committed numerous atrocities and that civilians were to blame for the Third Reich as well.
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Old July 16th, 2010, 10:44 PM   #390
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The methods/politics behind the destruction of Warsaw and Polish life and culture is not something "fascinating" to me. Only Polish people may understand this .
Where does this statement come from? It's perfectly reasonable to assume that others, besides poles, has the empathy needed to understand a catastrophe when they see one.

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Frankly, the matter is much more complicated than it seems. It's much easier for you, as you don't live on a huge cemetery, while we do. Literally, there's ashes of thousands of people beneath the houses, streets, parks and squares of Warsaw.
Again what rubbish. Why shouldn't other understand? I do not hope I am witnessing some kind of collective polish delusion at work here.

Thanks for posting all the pictures. The world needs to know!
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Old July 26th, 2010, 09:36 PM   #391
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Trailer of awsome project:



Watch in HD and fullscreen!
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Old July 26th, 2010, 11:09 PM   #392
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I really empathize with the citizens of Warsaw and the people of Poland in general. Manila was second to Warsaw in the extent of destruction suffered during world war 2. Ironically both cities were Roman Catholic and both lost many cathedrals during the war. I understand why many Poles will never forget what happened.
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Old July 26th, 2010, 11:22 PM   #393
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No, it's not a 'morbid fascination' It's a puzzle though: to what extent was the Third Reich a consequence of Germany's cultural magnificence in earlier centuries? Was it a consequence or was it totally unrelated? Do the highest pinnacles have to be dependent on the lowest pinnacles? I think anyone interested in Western civilisation has an obligation to question exactly how and why Germany descended into the depths of the Third Reich.



Is there a correlation between high culture and barbarism? Obviously barbarism doesn't have to be associated with an advanced cultural aesthetic but I think it's an interesting question, nevertheless.
Very interesting question here. I think German society prior to the third reich should be examined more closely. For example, did the high culture of pre-third reich Germany produce a large gap between the rich and the poor? If so, could this gap have produced desperate and disillusioned sectors of society that eventually the fed creation of the third reich????
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Old July 27th, 2010, 07:56 PM   #394
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I really empathize with the citizens of Warsaw and the people of Poland in general. Manila was second to Warsaw in the extent of destruction suffered during world war 2. Ironically both cities were Roman Catholic and both lost many cathedrals during the war. I understand why many Poles will never forget what happened.
Thanks friend. But I always thought Dresden or Cologne were second in destruction to Warsaw. Even Stalingrad. But you have our sympathy too. I think most Poles have good connections to Roman Catholic countries in general. How much of Manila was rebuilt?
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Old July 28th, 2010, 01:03 AM   #395
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Thanks friend. But I always thought Dresden or Cologne were second in destruction to Warsaw. Even Stalingrad. But you have our sympathy too. I think most Poles have good connections to Roman Catholic countries in general. How much of Manila was rebuilt?
In terms of area destroyed in relation to size of the city then Wurzburg was destroyed more than Dresden.
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Old July 28th, 2010, 10:30 AM   #396
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Originally Posted by dancethingy View Post
Very interesting question here. I think German society prior to the third reich should be examined more closely. For example, did the high culture of pre-third reich Germany produce a large gap between the rich and the poor? If so, could this gap have produced desperate and disillusioned sectors of society that eventually the fed creation of the third reich????
A subject of a new thread perhaps?
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Old July 28th, 2010, 06:41 PM   #397
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I think is terrible the level of destruction that a big city like Warsaw took in WWII...but I also think makes no sense to see which was first or second on level of destruction, this is such a terrible honour, no city deserves, all of them suffered a lot, lets not forget Stalingrad, Dresden, Berlin, Cologne, Hamburg, Rotterdam, Coventry, Breslau, Danzig, London, Tokyo, Kiev, Frankfurt, Elbing, Königsberg, and such a long etc....The citizens of those cities at that time took an amount of suffering none of us can imagine now a days, and we all lost an incredible amount of historic cultural heritage....lets hope this never happens again, never ever again !!!!
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Old July 28th, 2010, 06:48 PM   #398
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Trailer of awsome project:



Watch in HD and fullscreen!
Wow this project looks amazing !!!!
Is it posible to see the movie online or it has to be in the museum in Warsaw?
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Old July 28th, 2010, 08:24 PM   #399
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I think is terrible the level of destruction that a big city like Warsaw took in WWII...but I also think makes no sense to see which was first or second on level of destruction, this is such a terrible honour, no city deserves, all of them suffered a lot, lets not forget Stalingrad, Dresden, Berlin, Cologne, Hamburg, Rotterdam, Coventry, Breslau, Danzig, London, Tokyo, Kiev, Frankfurt, Elbing, Königsberg, and such a long etc....The citizens of those cities at that time took an amount of suffering none of us can imagine now a days, and we all lost an incredible amount of historic cultural heritage....lets hope this never happens again, never ever again !!!!
I agree. The more tourists that visit Warsaw the better. They will have a chance to learn the history hopefully and put things in perspective- why things are the way they are. By the way Breslau and Danzig are called now Wroclaw and Gdansk. Polish people rebuilt them and they cannot be considered German again.
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Old July 28th, 2010, 09:49 PM   #400
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Fascinating story covered worldwide today about this 3D film of Warsaw's destruction - a trailer is available at http://www.miastoruin.pl/:

BTW, the difference between the destruction of Warsaw and other cities is its totality and its intended effect of cultural annihilation and genocide. It targeted cultural treasures specifically and not munitions factories or soldiers. Anyway, it's history now.

Rare 3D film shows Warsaw devastated after WWII

By Monika Scislowska, The Associated Press

WARSAW, Poland - The plane slowly descends from white clouds and sweeps over a panorama of a city destroyed by the Nazis: the skeletons of bombed bridges jutting from a quiet river, the empty walls of burned-out houses, the Jewish ghetto totally flattened.

It is Warsaw in the spring of 1945, just after World War II.

The sea of rubble that Warsaw was reduced to during the war is vividly reconstructed in a 3D film that historians and computer graphics experts showed for the first time in Warsaw on Wednesday.

The goal of the film, which must be seen with special 3D glasses, is to bringing home to a young generation the scope of the wartime devastation of Poland's capital.

"Young people do not understand what it means that Warsaw was in ruins; they think it was just a few collapsed houses," Jan Oldakowski, the director of the Warsaw Uprising Museum, told reporters at a screening of the film "City of Ruins."

"Nor were we, at the museum, fully aware of what the city looked like," he said.

The 1939-45 destruction was the result of bombings carried out by Nazi Germany, which invaded Poland in 1939 and occupied it for six years, killing millions of people. Most of the damage resulted from the German army's revenge for the city's 1944 uprising against its brutal rule.

The uprising failed after 63 days of an uneven struggle, but as one of Europe's most dramatic acts of resistance to Nazi rule remains an important element of Polish national identity. The heroism shown by the insurgents — among them women and teenagers — is a source of deep pride to this day.

Oldakowski said it took 40 specialists two years to make the five-minute 3D aerial view sequence, a simulation of an imaginary flight of a British Liberator bomber over the city right after the war in 1945.

It reconstructs the trajectory that RAF bombers took when bringing arms and supplies to the insurgency. The uprising began on Aug. 1, 1944, and the release of the film is timed to mark the 66th anniversary.

Starting Sunday, the film will be shown to visitors at the museum, which documents the uprising and is a major draw for tourists and students from across the country. Last year, it had some 500,000 visitors.

Michal Gryn, from the Platige Image studio which made the film, said the team was not aware at first of the challenge before them in the form of the masses of documentary material they had to go through.

"It was a unique project to build a 3D model of authentic city ruins and make five minutes of film from it," Gryn said. "I don't think that anyone in the world has done this."

His team took a helicopter flight over contemporary Warsaw to film base material. They filled it in with detail from some 2,000 historic pictures, films and paintings — some from private archives — to recreate Warsaw as it was after the war.

The result is a computer simulation that shows collapsed bridges along the Vistula River, whole districts of roofless, burned-out houses and the Warsaw Ghetto as a flat sea of rubble.

A solemn musical score enhances the sense of death and menace.

An inscription that closes the film says that before the war some 1.3 million people lived in Warsaw, some 900,000 at the start of the uprising and just 1,000 amid the ruins in 1945.

Before the war, some 10 per cent of the city's population was Jewish.

Warsaw has been fully rebuilt, including a meticulous reconstruction of the Gothic and Renaissance Old Town. Today it is a bustling city of some 1.7 million, an administrative and business centre with many high-rise buildings.
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