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Old August 17th, 2010, 11:42 AM   #421
TedStriker
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They're amazing images.

The Germans certainly were busy bees in Warsaw during WWII. I'm hoping this CGI creation will prompt someone to create something along the same lines for Stalingrad during the war, and indeed a whole host of other locations.
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Old August 18th, 2010, 03:22 AM   #422
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Astonishing. Poles have done well rebuilding their nation after such a devastating blow by Nazi Germany on their national spirit. Warsaw was comparable to Paris before World War II. Over time more of it will get rebuilt.
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Old August 18th, 2010, 11:14 AM   #423
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I wonder what Albert Speer thought during and after WWII about all the destruction of such beautiful architecture.

But then I guess if it's possible for a Doctor - as in Joseph Mengele - to not only not give a shit about the pain and suffering of others, but to actually inflict pain and suffering, then I guess it's quite possible for an architect to not give a shit about the demolition of what were arguably some of the world's best looking cities.

I know this is a little off-topic to say this, but these days I'm less interested in thinking about the evil actions of many fascists and fascist-regime supporters during the 20s and 30s, and more interested in noting just how weird to me their outlook on life seems.


I can actually relate more to the motivations that led to, for example, the chaps who on September 11th 2001 turned four aeroplanes into flying bombs, than I can relate to the driving force behind the Nazis and Nazi Germany.

Anyway, I feel that I could ramble on for ages at the moment, so I'll end this post...now.
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Old August 18th, 2010, 06:57 PM   #424
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I think these people's minds were twisted by hate so much that they did not realize just how much destruction they had wrought. I think their supporters were similarly blinded but also fearful and manipulated.
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Old August 18th, 2010, 07:10 PM   #425
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Imagine how much more chilled out Germany might have been back then had cannabis been widely available at the time.
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Old August 19th, 2010, 08:53 AM   #426
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Why waste so many German resources in destroying a city that was strategically at this point not very important? Germans were losing the war and they were wasting their time on Warsaw?

I'm interested to hear what Germans on this forum have to say after seeing these images? I hope they feel shame BUT not indifference.
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Old August 19th, 2010, 09:18 AM   #427
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ganja bei
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Old August 19th, 2010, 10:15 AM   #428
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rychlik View Post
I'm interested to hear what Germans on this forum have to say after seeing these images? I hope they feel shame BUT not indifference.
I would imagine that most if not all Germans on this forum were born after WWII, and as such, I doubt that any of them feel any real connection with the pre-WWII Germany. Therefore I doubt that any of them experience feelings of shame about the actions of people from a completely different era and mindset, and nor is logical for them to feel shame, in my view at least.

I'm British, for example, and I don't feel any shame at all for the multitude of nasty things the British have done to themselves and others over the course of history. That's not to say that I don't think it's important for me and other British people to be aware of the detail of British history, and the impact that Britain has had and continues to have on the world, but I don't think you can ask one generation to feel shame for the actions of another.

If someone chooses to feel shame, that's that's different, because it's their choice, and I'm sure there are Germans who do indeed instinctively feel a little uncomfortable when they think about some the actions and attitudes of their pre-WWII countrymen and women.
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Old August 19th, 2010, 10:18 AM   #429
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I might add that for me the greatest British embarrassment is Tony Blair, and his era is also my era. The man is still alive!
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Old August 19th, 2010, 10:53 AM   #430
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I might add that for me the greatest British embarrassment is Tony Blair, and his era is also my era. The man is still alive!
I would say colonial era Britain has more embarrassments. As a Dutchman I am embarrassed of many occurrences in our colonial past and also how many people acted in WWII. At the same time I'm proud of some achievements as well.
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Old August 19th, 2010, 02:09 PM   #431
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Why waste so many German resources in destroying a city that was strategically at this point not very important? Germans were losing the war and they were wasting their time on Warsaw?
The city must completely disappear from the surface of the earth and serve only as a transport station for the Wehrmacht. No stone can remain standing. Every building must be razed to its foundation.
SS chief Heinrich Himmler, October 17, SS officers' conference

Warsaw has to be pacified, that is, razed to the ground.

Adolf Hitler, 1944

Considering the Germans were committing mass genocide in other parts of the country, we weren't talking the type of folk who really would have issues with flattening a city.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned...tion_of_Warsaw

After the remaining population had been expelled, the Germans begun the destruction of the remnants of the city. Special groups of German engineers were dispatched throughout the city in order to burn and demolish the remaining buildings. According to German plans, after the war Warsaw was to be turned into nothing more but a military transit station. The demolition squads used flamethrowers and explosives to methodically destroy house after house. They paid special attention to historical monuments, the Polish national archives, and other places of interest. Nothing was to be left of what used to be a city

The destruction of the city was so severe that in order to rebuild much of Warsaw a detailed landscape of the city, painted by the Italian artists Marcello Bacciarelli and Bernardo Bellotto, which had been commissioned by the government before the Partitions of Poland had to be used as a model to recreate most of the buildings.

Shame, because when the order came to destroy Paris, the German commander their refused, but no such luck for Warsaw.
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Last edited by Locke; August 19th, 2010 at 02:16 PM.
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Old August 19th, 2010, 02:19 PM   #432
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I'm interested to hear what Germans on this forum have to say after seeing these images? I hope they feel shame BUT not indifference.
I'm sad about what happened to Warsaw but I don't feel shame, after all neither I nor my family participated in the destruction of Warsaw.
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Old August 19th, 2010, 02:27 PM   #433
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Shame, because when the order came to destroy Paris, the German commander their refused, but no such luck for Warsaw.
Don't need to compare Paris and Warsaw!
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Old August 19th, 2010, 03:26 PM   #434
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There was an order to destroy Paris?

Was that in the closing stages of the war when the Germans were retreating?
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Old August 19th, 2010, 03:54 PM   #435
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There was an order to destroy Paris?
Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TedStriker View Post
Was that in the closing stages of the war when the Germans were retreating?
Yes, it was standart so-called "cleaning of cities" before retreating in 1943-45. It was in Soviet cities, Polish cities and in many others occupied territories.
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Old August 19th, 2010, 05:27 PM   #436
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There was an order to destroy Paris?

Was that in the closing stages of the war when the Germans were retreating?
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk...n_choltitz.htm

It was as the Allies were advancing.
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Old August 19th, 2010, 06:21 PM   #437
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Basically, the Nazis were wankers.
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Old August 19th, 2010, 07:04 PM   #438
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Why waste so many German resources in destroying a city that was strategically at this point not very important? Germans were losing the war and they were wasting their time on Warsaw
I think without the Warsaw uprising the city would not have been completely destroyed!
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Old August 19th, 2010, 07:10 PM   #439
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The destruction of Warsaw was already planned long before according to the Paubst Plan of 1939 and it would have been carried out even sooner if not for the Uprising and may have been an even more complete destruction. Uprising took place in part because Poles were promised backing would come from our Allies (especially Britain) shortly - unfortunately it never came I suppose for logistical reasons. Of course there will always be the "what ifs".
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Old August 19th, 2010, 07:54 PM   #440
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No, it's not a 'morbid fascination' It's a puzzle though: to what extent was the Third Reich a consequence of Germany's cultural magnificence in earlier centuries? Was it a consequence or was it totally unrelated? Do the highest pinnacles have to be dependent on the lowest pinnacles? I think anyone interested in Western civilisation has an obligation to question exactly how and why Germany descended into the depths of the Third Reich.
To answer these questions you have to look at the policy of the western allies, especially Great Britain before and after WW I.

In my opinion Britain wanted a war against the German empire in the early 20th century (as France did for different reasons) Germany had become too strong and a competitor for Great Britain, mainly industrially and economically!

After WW I as all the war guilt was put only on the shoulders of Germany - blinding out that also the people in London and Paris were cheering at the outbreak of the war in 1914 - leading to reparations for decades and territorial losses without asking the people.

Danzig for example with a population of 95% Germans (1919) was pulled out of Germany against the expressed will of the people!

Or the eastern part of Upper Silesia was annexed by Poland although in a plebiscite a majority voted for Germany!

According to the Young-plan from 1929 Germany would have to pay reparations until 1988!

As Germany wasn't able to fulfill all these payments the allied occupied the remaining industrial heart of Germany: The Ruhr territory!


Occupation of the Ruhr in 1923 by French and Belgian troops


wikimedia

This is only cutout of all what Germany had to undergo and what finally helped Hitler getting more and more important!
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