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Old August 19th, 2010, 09:07 PM   #441
rychlik
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Originally Posted by TedStriker View Post
I would imagine that most if not all Germans on this forum were born after WWII, and as such, I doubt that any of them feel any real connection with the pre-WWII Germany. Therefore I doubt that any of them experience feelings of shame about the actions of people from a completely different era and mindset, and nor is logical for them to feel shame, in my view at least.

I'm British, for example, and I don't feel any shame at all for the multitude of nasty things the British have done to themselves and others over the course of history. That's not to say that I don't think it's important for me and other British people to be aware of the detail of British history, and the impact that Britain has had and continues to have on the world, but I don't think you can ask one generation to feel shame for the actions of another.

If someone chooses to feel shame, that's that's different, because it's their choice, and I'm sure there are Germans who do indeed instinctively feel a little uncomfortable when they think about some the actions and attitudes of their pre-WWII countrymen and women.
In the context of European history, this war is extremely recent. Yes, even though modern Germans had nothing to do with the destruction of Warsaw or the Nazi's, one has to remember that certain ideologies can be passed on from one generation to the next. Let's not be naive. I hear nationalism is in the rise again in some western European nations.

Comparing British colonialism to German ethnic cleansing in Poland is not fair to Brits. To the best of my knowledge the Brits did not murder 6 million citizens of one single country in 6 years, rob it in the process and destroy it's major cities.

Again, this war is too recent in history for the scars to have disappeared- at least for Poles who lost the most. Maybe in 50 years the scars will no longer be visible.
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Old August 20th, 2010, 10:13 AM   #442
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Sure the Germans were I think unique in applying the mass-production ethos to produce an industry of death, as well as curious for embarking on a bizarre mission of urban destruction, but would it not also be the case that the scale of their activities had in part been a reflection of the age in which they were existing?

In other words, this period we're referring to is the early-to-mid 20th century, a period occurring just after an intensive age of development in terms of science, technology, and so on. In other words, the scale of the negativity of the 20th century is in some ways simply a direct reflection of the scale of positivity of the era.

If I'm making no sense here, what I mean to say is that everything is relative. So, for example, the human tragedy of the Irish Famine of the mid 19th century may not be quite as statistically impressive as the WWII era, but to the Irish themselves and to Ireland, it was a pretty massive, catastrophic event, and the British had a part to play in it.

I'm not some Irish militant by the way - I just thought of the Irish Famine as an example because it sprung to mind as result of some documentary I'd been watching recently.

But I hear your point about the fact that WWII is such a recent event, and one that still has such a great impact on the world, that it's inevitable that it will be the subject of discussion for a long time to come.
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Old August 20th, 2010, 12:01 PM   #443
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The Harrowing of the North of England by William the Conqueror in 1069 is another example of a scorched earth/pacification policy that saw the total destruction of numerous settlements, including food sources and livestock, and the slaughter of the inhabitants (maybe as many as 100,000 people killed). The difference with Nazi Germany is that the scale is so much greater, it was done so efficiently and calculatedly and it happened in what we perhaps thought was a much more civilised era than early-Norman England.
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Old August 20th, 2010, 01:06 PM   #444
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rychlik View Post
In the context of European history, this war is extremely recent. Yes, even though modern Germans had nothing to do with the destruction of Warsaw or the Nazi's, one has to remember that certain ideologies can be passed on from one generation to the next. Let's not be naive. I hear nationalism is in the rise again in some western European nations.

On this note, has anyone here seen The Quiller Memorandum, the 1966 film with Max von Sydow as the leader of a new-Nazi group? That and The Odessa File of 1974 are top-quality watching I think.

A fiend of mine lives in Budapest, and he says a sizeable chunk of Hungarians are racist, xenophobic and anti-semitic, which to me just seems mad. It's not as if it's just the poorly-educated under-class that are like this apparently, it's also people with money and at least some brains, who you'd think would be a little more rational in their outlook.

Some Hungarians have actually been saying the recent financial hick-up and economic downturn is the fault of jews! They haven't gone as far as attacking any jews yet, although they certainly have shot a few gypsies.

Perhaps Britain ought to start a new empire, a European affair that sorts out all these backward arses...
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Old August 20th, 2010, 08:10 PM   #445
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I hear Austria is becoming more right by the year (I have an Austrian housemate). Spain as well. Isn't Spain's unemployment rate now around 20%?
Wasn't Germany a poverty stricken country in the 1920's and 1930's?
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Old August 20th, 2010, 10:44 PM   #446
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Originally Posted by rychlik View Post
Why waste so many German resources in destroying a city that was strategically at this point not very important? Germans were losing the war and they were wasting their time on Warsaw?

I'm interested to hear what Germans on this forum have to say after seeing these images? I hope they feel shame BUT not indifference.
Even my grandparents were small children during the war, so I don't feel ashamed for them or myself. Yes, what Germany once did was a horrible crime and it shall never happen again, but I tend to get a little pissed off, when someones tries to force unjustified guilt upon me.
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Old August 20th, 2010, 11:04 PM   #447
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All those crimes weren't commited by Germany!

They were committed by individuals of German nationality. Guilt is always subjective and therefore penalties have be pronounced indidividually. No one would agree if I'd say you have to punish a whole family or a whole city just because a member or a citizen has comitted a crime!

This is a principle of civilized juridiction!

But I understand that it's quiet comfortable for some folk in the neighbouring countries of Germany - and especially Poland - to keep up all this WWII stuff and the German guilt.

I'm quiet sure that "rychlik" sees himself moral superior to every German just because he's Polish. But I really don't care about that. I just wonder sometimes how naive and bullheaded people still can be!

Having said that I have to admit that some things in Gerrman history make me feel ashamed , many more make me feel proud and at the end proud preponderates!

P.S.: What about nationalism and xenophobism in Poland?!?

P.P.S.:
Quote:
Originally Posted by rychlik View Post
Wasn't Germany a poverty stricken country in the 1920's and 1930's?
very intelligent question!

Last edited by JValjean; August 20th, 2010 at 11:10 PM.
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Old August 21st, 2010, 12:03 AM   #448
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I and most Poles don't want to dump guilt on Germans. I'd rather make friends and do business and when I see you at a resort in the Caribean I would rather come over and say hi I'm from Poland and you invite me to have a beer and we enjoy each other's company as neighbours with common bonds and problems today. If I had beer with you, I wouldn't say first of all that my mother was interred in Berghen Belsen unless you asked. Some might bring it up though and there is a polite way to handle it and move on to present day issues. I would rather hear about restoration efforts in Dresden.

But, we just want to set the record straight without hate, malice or undue exagerration and without whitewashing the truth. People fear ackowledging German suffering because it might eclipse the immense suffering of victims of Nazism and lead to German revanchism. Yes there is xenophobia in Poland and always was as anywhere else in the world but it never turned lethal.

What happened in Germany and what Nazi Germany did to others is a historic and moral responsibility that Germany/Germans are owning up to and no one should beat you over the head over it, especially those born afterwards. Americans murdered millions of aboriginals as did Spaniards and the English have bloody hands too, but that's history, but it was a long time ago - this is still only 60 years ago. To be fair we don't make films every year about what the Germans did, nor is our media saturated in stories about our WWII suffering. No, but there are appropriate times of the year when we commemorate and remember these events to keep us vigilant and to respect our ancestors and their accomplishments, triumphs and tragedies. The Warsaw Uprising Anniversary is just such a date.

What happened in Warsaw was especially tragic for us, because it nearly destroyed our national pride and self-esteem.
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Old August 22nd, 2010, 07:49 PM   #449
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Originally Posted by AlekseyVT View Post
Stop, stop, stop. Soviets not destroyed your country, Soviets not destroyed Warsaw and other cities. And Poland was ruled by your own Commies, not our. Your country was in ruins in 1945, and Commies helped you to rebuilt it and restore Poland on world map. If you want, you can judge your former Polish Communists for it. Communism failed only because Gorbachev let it be. There was no any your achievement. Soviets left your country without firing a shot.
Very simple interpretation of history,
and what about the crisis of the socialist economy in CCCP and other factors?





1945


the same district 2010

Last edited by Darhet; August 22nd, 2010 at 08:09 PM.
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Old August 25th, 2010, 09:52 PM   #450
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AlekseyVT: one month for the flame. Let's go back to the thread.
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Old August 25th, 2010, 09:56 PM   #451
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Check out this link from Newsweek.
http://www.newsweek.com/2010/08/15/i...countries.html

CNN
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/wor...ef=videosearch

Last edited by rychlik; August 25th, 2010 at 10:15 PM.
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Old January 9th, 2011, 06:24 PM   #452
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I read all topic and i have to say that there are some persons, who don't know anything about history of Poland and talk.
In 1938 Poland annexed Part of Silesia in Czech Republic, where most people were polish. It was revenge for Czech attack after IWW. For example in Trzyniec / Trinec 60% were Polish. England and France after IWW gave the part of our land for Czech Republic because of foundry in Trzyniec. City Cieszyn has been divided for two countries. In WWII Poland lost almost everythnig, what we were proud of. We lost 1/3 people , we lost our capital, we lost two very important cities, which were caitals of polish culture - Lwów, Wilno, we lost thousands of historical monuments, we lost our history. Huge library in Warsaw was totally destroyed. We lost half of country, we lost indepence for 44 years ( to 1989 ). Then we have got west lands. Completly destroyed festung Breslau - Wrocław, destroyed Gdańsk.
About Gdańsk and Prussia someone said that it was German land. But Gdańsk historically is polish ( from 1214 to 1795, when Prussia take part in partitions of Poland) .I won't write all polish history. Read about Konrad Mazowiecki, who imported Germans to help Poland.What was not destroyed to 1945 destroyed communists f.ex. Legnica, Jelenia Góra, Zielona Góra, Racibórz. We won this war, but west Europe sold us to Russia, everyone forgot about polish soldiers in this war, about Warsaw Uprising, which delayed russian march to west. In semptember 1939 France and England was obliged to help us and what? NOTHING. Most people talk about participation of french army in this war, but they did much less than Poland. If you think about Poland as a poor country you should know that it is all because Churchill and Roosvelt, which gave us to Stalin. Before war Poland was rich as Italy and more rich than Spain. Communism destroyed our country. Ugly architecture in historical parts of cities, destroying buildings, which survived war.
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Old January 9th, 2011, 10:10 PM   #453
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Unfortunately some people don't know this. Polish people are tired of having to rebuild every few generations and hope that now we have peace and I do think we have good reason to believe the worst is behind us. Unfortunately Warsaw still has a way to go before it is restored to some semblamnce of what it was.
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Warsaw Post-War Reconstruction to Present
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Old January 9th, 2011, 11:45 PM   #454
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Warsaw is quite an amazing city. But if they really want to go back to their glory days, they can start by getting rid of all of those ugly commie blocks.
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Old January 10th, 2011, 11:13 PM   #455
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http://www.um.warszawa.pl/v_syrenka/...h_Warszawy.pdf

here is everything, what we can say in this topic, but unfortunately I didn't find version in english. You have to translate or learn our beautiful, but hard language
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Old January 10th, 2011, 11:14 PM   #456
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RE:

Yeah great

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Old January 10th, 2011, 11:23 PM   #457
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Lol, if that's one of those spambots, than finally it fits just perfectly. XD
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Old January 10th, 2011, 11:30 PM   #458
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darrrrek View Post
http://www.um.warszawa.pl/v_syrenka/...h_Warszawy.pdf

here is everything, what we can say in this topic, but unfortunately I didn't find version in english. You have to translate or learn our beautiful, but hard language
wow, heard about this but didn't know it existed online. But you know there were earlier books on this subject such as the English language Warsaw: A City Destroyed and Rebuilt by A. Ciborowski. It's hard not to get sore about such premeditated brutality, 1000 years of lietrature, art not to mention personal possessions and lives gone... but gotta move on for the sake of sanity and peace.
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Warsaw Post-War Reconstruction to Present

Last edited by Urbanista1; January 10th, 2011 at 11:37 PM.
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Old January 11th, 2011, 06:30 PM   #459
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German Aerial Photos of Warsaw:
http://www.wwii-photos-maps.com/wars...tos/index.html
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Old January 12th, 2011, 04:24 AM   #460
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I read all topic and i have to say that there are some persons, who don't know anything about history of Poland and talk.
In 1938 Poland annexed Part of Silesia in Czech Republic, where most people were polish. It was revenge for Czech attack after IWW. For example in Trzyniec / Trinec 60% were Polish. England and France after IWW gave the part of our land for Czech Republic because of foundry in Trzyniec. City Cieszyn has been divided for two countries. In WWII Poland lost almost everythnig, what we were proud of. We lost 1/3 people , we lost our capital, we lost two very important cities, which were caitals of polish culture - Lwów, Wilno, we lost thousands of historical monuments, we lost our history. Huge library in Warsaw was totally destroyed. We lost half of country, we lost indepence for 44 years ( to 1989 ). Then we have got west lands. Completly destroyed festung Breslau - Wrocław, destroyed Gdańsk.
About Gdańsk and Prussia someone said that it was German land. But Gdańsk historically is polish ( from 1214 to 1795, when Prussia take part in partitions of Poland) .I won't write all polish history. Read about Konrad Mazowiecki, who imported Germans to help Poland.What was not destroyed to 1945 destroyed communists f.ex. Legnica, Jelenia Góra, Zielona Góra, Racibórz. We won this war, but west Europe sold us to Russia, everyone forgot about polish soldiers in this war, about Warsaw Uprising, which delayed russian march to west. In semptember 1939 France and England was obliged to help us and what? NOTHING. Most people talk about participation of french army in this war, but they did much less than Poland. If you think about Poland as a poor country you should know that it is all because Churchill and Roosvelt, which gave us to Stalin. Before war Poland was rich as Italy and more rich than Spain. Communism destroyed our country. Ugly architecture in historical parts of cities, destroying buildings, which survived war.
You make it sound so depressing. But don't be. Poland is still rich in terms of culture. There is plenty to be proud of. Is it not true most artifacts were recovered in Warsaw? Not everything was lost.
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