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Old March 3rd, 2011, 07:26 AM   #481
rychlik
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I love Julian Bryan. I have seen his work. He was the last American out of Warsaw in 1939.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8eAmFrPS7U

By the way does anyone know how badly Warsaw was destroyed when the Swedish attacked it in 1705? (I think this is the correct date).

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Old March 3rd, 2011, 08:23 PM   #482
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Some interesting finds.

Designs for a new Warsaw. Not fully realized.








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Old March 3rd, 2011, 08:29 PM   #483
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Old March 3rd, 2011, 08:42 PM   #484
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Old March 3rd, 2011, 08:44 PM   #485
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It's shocking how the whole castle was destroyed. Some artifacts were lost forever.
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Old March 4th, 2011, 06:42 AM   #486
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Can you imagine if it was not rebuilt? I mean, it would have been nice if it had received a more pre-destruction facade treatment but it's still good to see it there.
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Old March 5th, 2011, 04:35 AM   #487
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The tendency after the war was to revert to purer architectural versions that existed during the more romantic period of Polish history prior to losing independence in late 1700's or more unadorned classical or rather simplified versions that were compatible with socialist realism. A lot of the old town was rebuilt with a slight socialist realist inflection as was the castle I believe. The interiors are amazing and many thousands of important artifacts were saved from the wreckage after the the Nazis destroyed the castle, they were stored in warehouses for decades and then re-incorporated into the future building.

rychlik, looks like you have been busy doing research and it looks like you managed to find the books. did you get the 1964 edition with those amazing sections?
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Warsaw Post-War Reconstruction to Present
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Old March 5th, 2011, 08:13 AM   #488
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Anthony Tung's Preserving the World's Great Cities has a nice chapter on Warsaw. You guys should check it out.

The book above - with the sketches - if it's the 6 year plan of Bierut, I have access too and I'll try to do some scans.
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Old March 5th, 2011, 09:28 PM   #489
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A few lines from Anthony Tung (for emotional impact of course):

German architects carefully identified the historic monuments of the city: the most beautifully proportioned buildings, the buildings designed by distinguished architects, the buildings where famous Varsovians had lived, the places where important historic events had taken place, the buildings with gracious sculptural decoration, the buildings of symbolic importance, the best examples of different architectural styles, the most meaningful buildings of various periods, the proudest churches, the richest palaces, the most beautiful homes, and the neighborhoods where the architecture of Warsaw was knit into an artistic whole—the panoply of Warsaw's pride, built across seven hundred years of history. Then, having ascertained the patrimony of the metropolis, the German occupational forces sent out squads to rob these places, to strip them of their art and artifacts and, afterward, to dynamite the architectural accomplishments of Polish culture. The structural integrity of buildings was analyzed. Explosives were set and detonated from a safe distance. In World War II, it became German national policy that the culture of Warsaw be erased as a way to quash the spirit of resistance among the Polish people.

http://www.anthonymtung.com/excerpts.htm
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Old March 5th, 2011, 09:36 PM   #490
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In Poland in World War II, the Germans perpetrated a Polish genocide, a Jewish genocide, and a Russian genocide. They reduced the country to a vast killing field and made Warsaw a city of death.

Between 1939 and 1944 some 800,000 people, or 60 percent of Warsaw's population, were killed and most of the town destroyed. The intent of this carnage was chilling. The Nazis had decided to depopulate Poland and reconfigure Warsaw to hold 130,000 German inhabitants occupying an area about 5 percent of the size of the prewar city. In Wurzburg, in Bavaria, town planners of the Third Reich drafted precise drawings identifying a historic area of "Germanic" architectural character in which select old buildings would be saved (including a historic castle to serve as Hitler's state residence), and a modern provincial city would be built up around them. The Pabst Plan, composed of fifteen drawings and a miniature architectural model, established that the new German agricultural center would be located in the sector around the Old and New Towns of Warsaw. (The Pabst Plan is named for the German army architect Friedrich Pabst, who refined the idea of destroying an enemy's national cultural identity by destroying its physical manifestations: architecture, art, and historic archives. The actual design for the new German city to be located in the former site of Warsaw was created by another German army architect, Hubert Gross.)

http://www.anthonymtung.com/excerpts.htm
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Old March 5th, 2011, 09:40 PM   #491
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Now the Germans used the scholarship of their experts to perpetrate an intellectual obscenity. People who had been trained to revere the beauty of architecture and of cities lent their knowledge to the destruction of the very achievements to which they aspired. In order to subdue the fighting spirit of the Poles, the Germans attempted to eradicate their culture by destroying the most profoundly meaningful aspects of Warsaw's cityscape. This is one of the most revealing moments in the history of architectural conservation, a juncture of extreme inversion of values. Perceiving the Germans' intent, the Varsovians began a cultural counteroffensive.

http://www.anthonymtung.com/excerpts.htm
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Old March 5th, 2011, 09:48 PM   #492
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THIS IS NOT FAIR:

In comparision, the Germans used a relatively small volume of high explosives on Warsaw: about 12,000 pounds were dropped in the initial aerial bombardment. Yet the calculated, building-by-building destruction rendered by the German occupational force was extraordinarily more potent in its effect. In Berlin, which was about four times bigger than Warsaw, at the war's end, 70 percent of the city's buildings were lightly damaged, 9 percent were salvageable, 8 percent heavily damaged, and 11 percent totally destroyed. In Warsaw, however, 80 percent of the buildings were entirely eradicated. Large parts of the German capital, many of them quite beautiful, remained intact; in Warsaw virtually all of the beautiful aspects of the city were erased from the earth. When General Dwight Eisenhower visited Warsaw, he was appalled: "I have seen many towns destroyed during the war, but nowhere have I been faced with such extent of destruction executed with such bestiality."

http://www.anthonymtung.com/excerpts.htm


When I read this kind of stuff it makes it hard to like Germans as people.
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Old March 5th, 2011, 09:55 PM   #493
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Urbanista - I have not found the actual physical book. I did find resources online.
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Old March 5th, 2011, 11:02 PM   #494
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rychlik, your welcome to look at my copy if your interested, I'm in the east end of T.O around Leslieville.

I have read Anthony Tsung's book, excellent, actually I read it a few times. He writes about Cairo, Jerusalem, Rome and Moscow among other places. It's hard to read the above citations, my relatives are still buried somewhere in unmarked graves in Warsaw as they were among the 850,000 killed.

I think there are a lot of very good people everywhere and I have met many very nice Germans, but what happened then shows how when under stress and under the continuous influence of propaganda people succumb to hate and the most base human emotions very easily, even the most civilized. just look at what is happening in the US and Canada right now with right wing regimes trying to brainwash people with an "us versus them" scapegoat ideology and some people are buying into the lies perpetrated by the media just like many Germans and Austrians were convinced by the Nazi lies about Jews and Poles and other Slavs.
intervention, if you have the time it would be great to see those scans here.
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Warsaw Post-War Reconstruction to Present

Last edited by Urbanista1; March 6th, 2011 at 08:52 AM.
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Old March 6th, 2011, 03:43 AM   #495
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This thread turns more and more into a Germans demonisation thread. I find that pretty alarming! In real life I don't know any Poles, but some guys here on Skyscrapers are giving me the impression of a miserably vengeful lot.
Just take a look at the Dresden Neumarkt reconstruction thread. Are the Germans there constantly demonising the British?
No wonder the Dresden thread is far more popular by forumers around the world, than this sad thread. The fantastic reconstruction of Warsaw deserves that popularity as well...but you are completely ruining it! The very title of this thread speaks volumes. It's not about the rising of Warsaw from it's ashes, but the horrible thing that was commited by Germans.

Last edited by Tiaren; March 6th, 2011 at 03:57 AM.
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Old March 6th, 2011, 08:48 AM   #496
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Tiaren, to be fair this thread is about what happened to Warsaw just after the war, when the wreckage was surveyed in the year 1945, so it focusses on the year after the Vernichtungcommandos obliterated the city, centuries of culture and 850,000 of it residents. Having said that, you should not generalize about how Poles feel about Germans of course. Some, when going through this thread, feel a great deal of pain, myself included, but it does not mean we hate Germans at all. We do differentiate between Nazi Germans and the Germans of today. One comment does not define a whole nation.

maybe it's time for more Germans like yourself to try to get to know Poles. despite being our biggest neighbour, German travel to Poland is very low. maybe this gulf is what has continued the hostility you see expressed by a few here. Reconciliation is not just a formality and symbolic gestures between political leaders, it something that needs to happen between people and involves great sensitivity and understanding and above all interaction.

Tiaren, I understand your frustration, but by comparing Dresden to Warsaw you don't really understand the difference. The tragedy that befell Dresden was to humiliate and bring Nazi Germany to its knees, the destruction of Warsaw was mass ethnic cleansing and the annihilation of a culture(s). Having said that, I know what your saying and your right the anger here does turn off people.

rychlik, maybe it's time to start a new thread about post WWII Warsaw that focuses on the BOS (Biuro Odbudowy Stolicy/Bureau for the Reconstruction of the Capital) and Poland's post-war version of the Manhattan project that rebuilt Warsaw from scratch. Very few people know about this magnificent and herculanean effort.
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Last edited by Urbanista1; March 6th, 2011 at 05:53 PM.
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Old March 6th, 2011, 09:28 AM   #497
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Urbanista, you express your thoughts very nicely. I will write more once I get some rest.
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Old March 6th, 2011, 10:46 AM   #498
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rychlik View Post
When I read this kind of stuff it makes it hard to like Germans as people.
Hmm. Poles did exactly the same in the so called recovered territories with the German heritage, but I don't know why I should dislike todays Poles, as long as they don't try to excuse or even defend these actions.

Last edited by Karasek; March 6th, 2011 at 01:59 PM.
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Old March 6th, 2011, 05:47 PM   #499
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Wow, I hope you are an exception Karasek, that is extremely shocking and disproportianate misrepresentation of history. There is no comparison. Wroclaw was dismantled in large areas to help rebuild Warsaw and buildings were given a more Polish look when rebuilt/restored in other areas, but you can understand why people wanted to create a more Polish feel to their communities and why Warsaw needed to be rebuilt. I don't deny that areas of German heritage were not treated with great respect, but that is changing now. Anyway, I think we discussed this subject before.
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Warsaw Post-War Reconstruction to Present

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Old March 6th, 2011, 06:55 PM   #500
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Originally Posted by Urbanista1 View Post


Wow, I hope you are an exception Karasek, that is extremely shocking and disproportianate misrepresentation of history.
Well, he spoke about the destruction of the Polish cultural heritage and extermination of the Polish culture, not about mass murder and the extermination of a nation. Of course that's a totally different matter... death is a master from Germany.
But a extermination of the destinctive German/Prussian cultural heritage happened after the war too, and not only to rebuilt Warsaw but to eradicate all German traces from the so called recovered territories. This offical policy of the "obliteration of traces of Germanhood" led to enormous losses, which are comparable to the Nazi-German actions in Poland. Polish preservationists estimate that the destructions between 1945 and 1985 in the "recovered territories" are as big as the destructions by the war. Silesia for example is nothing more than a disembowelled, dead body today.

Anyway, to illustrate my point... the church of the abbey of Lubiasz, once the richest and most beautiful Silesian monastery and a important testimony of the German settlement in Silesia, was used to rebuilt Warsaw.





The painting from the high altar (in the middle of the pic) by Michael Willmann is now in Piry near Warsaw. The baroque stalls are now in Stezyca (Lubelskie). Of the 43 paintings by Willmann (left and right above the high altar) 28 are in different churches of Warsaw and 3 are in museums of Warsaw.
The church looks like this now:

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