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Old February 22nd, 2008, 02:57 AM   #101
Darhet
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Warsaw was nearly destroyed in a planned not like German city in combat...


The Warsaw sewer system (map) was used to move insurgent forces, unseen, between the Old Town and the Downtown (Śródmieście) and Żoliborz districts:


Polish Home Army positions, outlined in red, on day 4

[IMG]Polish Boy Scouts fighting in the Warsaw Uprising[/IMG]



The city must completely disappear from the surface of the earth and serve only as a transport station for the Wehrmacht. No stone can remain standing. Every building must be razed to its foundation.
SS chief Heinrich Himmler, October 17, SS officers' conference[1]
Warsaw has to be pacified, that is, razed to the ground.
Adolf Hitler, 1944[2"




1939-1945
population
# 1939 Warsaw was 1 300 000 IX
# 1939: 1,250 000 in XII
# 19401 289 000-
#1941 1 350 000
# 1942 1 350 000 ----300,000 Ghetto residents met their deaths at the Treblinka extermination camp in the 52 days preceding September 12, 1942.
#1943 1000 000-Warsaw Ghetto Uprising
#1944 960 000-Warsaw Uprising
# 1945-I The Other Side of the River (downtown, Mokotów,Stare miasto,Żoliborz,wola)was only 100-200 mans,
but in Prag District was 160 000
# 1945 IX 478 755


Polish losses amounted to 18,000 soldiers killed and 25,000wounded.
between 120,000 and 200,000 civilian deaths, mostly from mass murders conducted by retreating G.-NAZI troops
German casualties totalled over 17,000 soldiers killed
and over 9,000 wounded


After the remaining population had been expelled ( 600 000-500 000), the Germans started the destruction of the remains of the city. Special groups of engineers were dispatched throughout the city in order to burn and demolish the remaining buildings. According to Nazi plans, after the war Warsaw was to be turned into nothing more but a military transit station, or even a lake. The demolition squads used flame-throwers and explosives to methodically destroy house after house. They paid special attention to historical monuments, Polish national archives and places of interest: nothing was to be left of what used to be a city.

By January 1945 85% of the buildings were destroyed: 25% as a result of the Uprising, 35% as a result of systematic German actions after the uprising, the rest as a result of the earlier Warsaw Ghetto Uprising (15%) and other combat including the September 1939 campaign (10%).

Material losses were estimated at 10,455 buildings, 923 historical buildings (94 percent), 25 churches, 14 libraries including the National Library, 81 primary schools, 64 high schools, University of Warsaw and Warsaw University of Technology, and most of the historical monuments.Almost a million inhabitants lost all of their possessions. The exact amount of losses of private and public property as well as pieces of art, monuments of science and culture is unknown but considered enormous. Studies done in the late 1940s estimated total damage at about $30 billion US dollars


In 2004 President of Warsaw Lech Kaczyński, now President of Poland, established a historical commission to estimate material losses that were inflicted upon the city by German authorities. The commission estimated the losses on at least 31.5 billion US dollars in 2004 value.Those estimates where later raised to 45 billion 2004 US dollars and in 2005, to 54,6 billions and now is 80 billions $.













Quote:
Originally Posted by dirtyfinger View Post
World War II was really hard moment for most of european cities, and we're not trying to argue which was more destroyed etc. Some of poles are really proud of warsaw because it could be only an empty field now. (There were plans to move capital to cracow again, and leave the city ruins as a monument) Our grandfathers did a great job with rebuilding ruins of a dead city and make it alive again. And this is something we should appreciate.
I agree




Monument to Allied airmen lost over Warsaw.

Postwar mass graves of civilians killed in the Wola massacre.


Warsaw monument to the heroes of the Warsaw Uprising.

Last edited by Darhet; July 18th, 2008 at 06:45 AM.
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Old February 22nd, 2008, 03:23 AM   #102
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Beauty is about taste and will. We could build cities ten times more beautiful than the Warsaw of the 30s. Yet, we prefer glass buildings.
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Old February 22nd, 2008, 11:52 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by pflo777 View Post
Almost every major German City looked like that.
And yes, those who made that to our cities claim to be our liberators, unlike ther Nazis, who never claimed to be Polands friends.
Are you CRAZY? Are you joking? Every big city/town in Poland was completelly destroyed also but WARSAW was the most destroyed city in WWII and in human history!!!! Can you imagin 8 district of 1,350 mnl people's town COMPLETELLY DESTROYED ???? Even every parks, even houses on the suburbs?? I think you can't if you talking so absurdity and stupidity.
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Old February 22nd, 2008, 02:21 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeN View Post
Are you CRAZY? WARSAW was the most destroyed city in WWII and in human history!!!!
Hiroshima was not that bad.
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Old February 22nd, 2008, 03:41 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirtyfinger View Post
Did any German city looked like that ?
:
And it wasn't liberators job.... If you don't like this thread leave it
Only part of Warsaw looked like that - former jewish getto
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Old February 22nd, 2008, 04:43 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeN View Post
and in human history!!!! :
if only that were true, unfortunatly it's just one of many.
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Old February 22nd, 2008, 05:05 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skysurfer26 View Post
Its great to see how much effort the Polish people are putting to reconstruct their capital, that was completly destroyed by the WWII, thanks to those fanatic Nazis and lets not forget, Stalin was also very happy to see how the city was completly destroyed, he stood outside the city(his army) waiting for the Germans to finish the destruction, and not moving a finger to stop it...he is also a war criminal !!
Soviet commanders Zukov and Rokossovky after Uprising begin developed plan of strike on Nazis, in order to encircle Warsaw and force Nazis to flee. Also Soviet long range artillery begun shooting on Nazis artillery which pound city with heavy rounds. Also Red Army begun to provide weapons and ammunition for fighting Warsaw by planes.
However, on personal Stalin's order all has been stopped. Zukov and Rokossovsky plan was refused, Red Army was ordered to attack on Romania direction...
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Old February 22nd, 2008, 08:26 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giri View Post
Beauty is about taste and will. We could build cities ten times more beautiful than the Warsaw of the 30s. Yet, we prefer glass buildings.
Yes, yes we could. But remember? Buidling such beautiful timeless structures is 'backward' and 'in the past'.
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Old February 22nd, 2008, 08:27 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeN View Post
Are you CRAZY? Are you joking? Every big city/town in Poland was completelly destroyed also but WARSAW was the most destroyed city in WWII and in human history!!!! Can you imagin 8 district of 1,350 mnl people's town COMPLETELLY DESTROYED ???? Even every parks, even houses on the suburbs?? I think you can't if you talking so absurdity and stupidity.
Yeah how about you go tell that to the people of Dresden, you know? Where the firestorms by the English were so bad that people were roasted alive in the streets.
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Old February 27th, 2008, 09:23 PM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unionstation13 View Post
Yeah how about you go tell that to the people of Dresden, you know? Where the firestorms by the English were so bad that people were roasted alive in the streets.
I know about air raid on Dresden, Koln, Berlin, Braunschweig, Dusseldorf, Munchen, Hamburg and many others german cities but it was not that scale like in Warsaw where about 26 000 buildings was planned destroyed.
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Old February 27th, 2008, 09:29 PM   #111
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"The city must completely disappear from the surface of the earth and serve only as a transport station for the Wehrmacht. No stone can remain standing. Every building must be razed to its foundation."

SS chief Heinrich Himmler, October 17, SS officers' conference
Warsaw has to be pacified, that is, razed to the ground.
Adolf Hitler, 1944
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"Dobra architektura kształtuje obywatela, jest niezbędna dla prawidłowego rozwoju społeczeństwa i dlatego powinna stać się jedną z pierwszych potrzeb ludzkich".


Maciej Nowicki

Last edited by MikeN; February 27th, 2008 at 09:37 PM.
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Old February 27th, 2008, 10:09 PM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pflo777 View Post
so, do you get off on posting these pictures time and again?

I could open up a thread like that on every bigger german city, that was erased from this planet by our beloved liberators.
Your beloved liberators were busy defending theirselves and their Western civilization against an external aggression. This makes the destructions committed by them at least understandable.

Should we really recall what were the Nazi destruction for?

It's very sad that the reputation of a country that did so much in order to revise its history is harmed by people who think Germans after WW2 were victims of some sort of international plot aimed at annihilating them.

Last edited by Federicoft; February 28th, 2008 at 12:32 AM.
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Old February 27th, 2008, 11:10 PM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unionstation13 View Post
Yeah how about you go tell that to the people of Dresden, you know? Where the firestorms by the English were so bad that people were roasted alive in the streets.
Yeah, the fires of bombed Dresden were visible hundreds of kilometers far! Highly demoralizing I guess.

The worst thing about it is that the poles were allies of Nazi Germany and attacked Czechoslovakia together with Germany. Even the fearful Hungarians were slower in occupation of our territories than the Poles.. then after war they get Silesia (and Danzig, and part of Prussia..), which was historically czech land, so I don't know why they cry about destroyed city - they've get many new ones.
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Old February 27th, 2008, 11:17 PM   #114
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are you some sort of Czech nationalist or just joking ?
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Old February 27th, 2008, 11:24 PM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norkey View Post
Yeah, the fires of bombed Dresden were visible hundreds of kilometers far! Highly demoralizing I guess.

The worst thing about it is that the poles were allies of Nazi Germany and attacked Czechoslovakia together with Germany. Even the fearful Hungarians were slower in occupation of our territories than the Poles.. then after war they get Silesia (and Danzig, and part of Prussia..), which was historically czech land, so I don't know why they cry about destroyed city - they've get many new ones.
Poland lost 20% of it's territory, way over $1 trillion of material damage and 6 million of it's citizens in consequence of WWII. Compared to Poland, Czechia was practically left unscathed, for obvious reasons.
Now, back to history books, off you go!
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Old February 28th, 2008, 01:03 AM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeN View Post
I know about air raid on Dresden, Koln, Berlin, Braunschweig, Dusseldorf, Munchen, Hamburg and many others german cities but it was not that scale like in Warsaw where about 26 000 buildings was planned destroyed.
Yes but people seem to act as if Germany was untouched or just slightly damaged.
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Old February 28th, 2008, 01:09 AM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Federicoft View Post
Your beloved liberators were busy defending theirselves and their Western civilization against an external aggression. This makes the destructions committed by them at least understandable.

Should we really recall what were the Nazi destruction for?

It's very sad that the reputation of a country that did so much in order to revise its history is harmed by people who think Germans after WW2 were victims of some sort of international plot aimed at annihilating them.
Actually areas like Berlin were mostly destroyed due to revenge by the Russians. Much of the destruction and slaughter was done after Russians took Berlin. Berlin was taken rather house by house and then bombed to simply destroy it, or at least that is what I read in a National Geographic about Berlin's destruction. The Russians had many areas torn down. What the Nazi's did was disgusting and the lowest level of WWII, but don't put a crown on the allied forces either. They killed many civilians including people who rejected Nazi ideas all together or had done nothing to contribute to such slaughter. The treatment of German CIVILIANS after WWII by Russia was disgusting. Constant rape, murder, and theft towards even children was not a rare sight. Regardless of what a civilian supports, they should only be treated for their physical actions. If someone wanted to enslave every child in the world then I would think they are revolting, but I would not attack them until they did such a crime to humanity. The problem was, that many allied forces put every German speaking person into one pot and assumed them all Nazis, so they treated them all as nazis. Often even children.
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Old February 28th, 2008, 01:13 AM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paku View Post
Poland lost 20% of it's territory, way over $1 trillion of material damage and 6 million of it's citizens in consequence of WWII. Compared to Poland, Czechia was practically left unscathed, for obvious reasons.
Now, back to history books, off you go!
Warsaw is a tragedy beyond tragedy, but the areas around Warsaw weren't telly tubby land either.
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Old February 28th, 2008, 01:15 AM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norkey View Post
Yeah, the fires of bombed Dresden were visible hundreds of kilometers far! Highly demoralizing I guess.

The worst thing about it is that the poles were allies of Nazi Germany and attacked Czechoslovakia together with Germany. Even the fearful Hungarians were slower in occupation of our territories than the Poles.. then after war they get Silesia (and Danzig, and part of Prussia..), which was historically czech land, so I don't know why they cry about destroyed city - they've get many new ones.
Most(if not all) of Dresden was rubble and shells of buildings.
Yes, Poland helped Germany and Germany turned right around and destroyed the very land that helped them.
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Old February 28th, 2008, 01:19 AM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norkey View Post
Yeah, the fires of bombed Dresden were visible hundreds of kilometers far! Highly demoralizing I guess.

The worst thing about it is that the poles were allies of Nazi Germany and attacked Czechoslovakia together with Germany. Even the fearful Hungarians were slower in occupation of our territories than the Poles.. then after war they get Silesia (and Danzig, and part of Prussia..), which was historically czech land, so I don't know why they cry about destroyed city - they've get many new ones.
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...&postcount=147

Quote:
OK.. we'll give some territory to Opole, and you give us whole Silesia and Kladsko as it was in the times of Maria Theresia. We want also Lužice (Ober- and Nieder- Lausitz and Brandenburg with Berlin from the germans) and some parts of Egerland, Austrians should give us parts of Vitorazsko and areas around Thaya river and we should get Subcarpatian Russia from the Ukrainians and Prussia from the Russians, maybe we should annex slovakia and kranj with Lublaň too, and why not to annex whole germany and austria and create "Holy Roman Empire of 21st Century" then cross the alpes, destroy Milano and capture the Rome..
Border changing in Europe has long tradition so why not to continue with it!
Your comment in Polish land grab thread. I thought it was a joke but now I see you're some sort of frustated nationalist...
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