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Old February 28th, 2008, 01:29 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by Unionstation13 View Post
Yes, Poland helped Germany and Germany turned right around and destroyed the very land that helped them.
What Poland did in 1938 is nothing to be proud of but they did not annexed West Těšín in agreement with Germans.

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Poland coerced Czechoslovakia to surrender the city of Český Těšín, by issuing an ultimatum to that effect on 30 September, which was accepted by Czechoslovakia on the first of October. Following negotiations with Czech authorities, who were given an additional 24 hours to evacuate the area, Polish troops and authorities entered it on 2 October 1938, and the territory was annexed by Poland as Cieszyn Zachodni (West Cieszyn).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesin

Last edited by MasEl; February 28th, 2008 at 01:36 AM.
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Old February 28th, 2008, 01:47 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Unionstation13 View Post
Most(if not all) of Dresden was rubble and shells of buildings.
Yes, Poland helped Germany and Germany turned right around and destroyed the very land that helped them.
What are you talking about?! There was never any deal of Poland helping Nazi Germany with anything! Are you trying to rewrite the history or what?!
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Old February 28th, 2008, 01:52 AM   #123
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What are you talking about?! There was never any deal of Poland helping Nazi Germany with anything! Are you trying to rewrite the history or what?!
I'm not a historian on that field, I just know that Germany and Poland worked togethet at one point but it wasn't very long since the Nazis had different plans. Unless I was the only survivor of something or whatever I couldn't rewrite history and what would be my motivation?
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Old February 28th, 2008, 01:53 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by MasEl View Post
What Poland did in 1938 is nothing to be proud of but they did not annexed West Těšín in agreement with Germans.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesin
Like I said, I don't know much about that so it would be ignorant of me to continue on that area without further study.
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Old February 28th, 2008, 02:14 AM   #125
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What are you talking about?! There was never any deal of Poland helping Nazi Germany with anything! Are you trying to rewrite the history or what?!
No he's just american...
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Old February 28th, 2008, 02:31 AM   #126
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Poland pounced on poor Czechoslovakia when it had no means of protecting itself. Talk about kicking someone when they're down. What is this discussion about anyway? Is this some sort of "who suffered more" contest?
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Old February 28th, 2008, 02:40 AM   #127
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Yeah, the fires of bombed Dresden were visible hundreds of kilometers far! Highly demoralizing I guess.

The worst thing about it is that the poles were allies of Nazi Germany and attacked Czechoslovakia together with Germany. Even the fearful Hungarians were slower in occupation of our territories than the Poles.. then after war they get Silesia (and Danzig, and part of Prussia..), which was historically czech land, so I don't know why they cry about destroyed city - they've get many new ones.

Because I lost half of family in Warsaw 44!!!!
We lost the old Warsaw!!!
Go away!!

You Don't Know Silesia’s history,and Gdansk’s history and Prussia’s.


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Originally Posted by Kampflamm View Post
Talk about kicking someone when they're down. What is this discussion about anyway? Is this some sort of "who suffered more" contest?
I agree.
End of offtop


metal band from Saalfeld, Germany -about Warsaw Uprising 1944:


An insurrection of the lost
With courage born from despair
An end for the years of anguish;
A battle in the heart of this nation

Uprising of the lost;
In the abyss between the worlds
They all averted their eyes
A home behind the enemies lines

They raped and burned our fatherland
We know that nothing shall remain; there's no tomorrow,
We'll bring it to an end; there's no tomorrow.

Uprising of the lost; the world averted it's eyes

Our souls scorched with our homes
But fitful we hold our ground

Ragged figures but brothers and sisters we are;
Through fields of debris we crawl

Red vultures awaiting our end
A home behind the enemies lines



The French band Varsovie about Warsaw Uprising 1944:

Last edited by Darhet; March 10th, 2010 at 05:31 AM.
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Old February 28th, 2008, 04:42 AM   #128
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No he's just american...
one-I'm a woman.
two- me being an American has nothing to do with this. If you think so, you are a damn moron. America is a big place and is very diverse. Its impossible to put a single tag on everyone.
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Old February 28th, 2008, 07:06 AM   #129
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Warsaw Uprising 1944


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Old February 28th, 2008, 11:16 AM   #130
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What are you talking about?! There was never any deal of Poland helping Nazi Germany with anything! Are you trying to rewrite the history or what?!
Hmm, I am not an historician, but I've read many czech and german historician's work about 30s in Central Europe so I think I am familiar with this period well. The fact is that your regime before WW2 was strongly anti-czechoslovakian and anti-democratic, that's the pure fact. Beck cooperated with Nazi Germany. You occupied Teschenland with your army after Münich agreement, a terrible agression in the same time the Germans anexed Sudetenland - when we were down. It was very brave from you. If your regime was more democratic and czechoslovak-friendly, we should crush Hitler's ambitions in few months! And the same with soviets - if you Poles helped admiral Kolchak and Czechoslovak Legions who controlled Siberia in 1918-1920, world should look a little bit different now.

But it is the past and lot of bad happened.. it will be better to think of the future.. that's purpose of this forum if I'm right?

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Old February 28th, 2008, 11:27 AM   #131
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You Don't Know Silesia’s history,and Gdansk’s history and Prussia’s.
Yeah, lot of people lost their relatives in war times.. should we stay at trees or what? Btw I know nearly everything about history of Europe, especially it's central part..

Iluminat: No, really, I am not a czech nationalist - just look at my signature..

my last words in this thread.

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Old February 28th, 2008, 11:52 AM   #132
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one-I'm a woman.
Even worse
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Old February 28th, 2008, 12:15 PM   #133
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You occupied Teschenland with your army after Münich agreement, a terrible agression in the same time the Germans anexed Sudetenland - when we were down.
We just protected our land and people from nazi occupation I don't think it's something shamefull. I wouldn't call it "agression" or helping Hitler since you guys didn't want to fight and there was no war in fact it would be better for you if we annexed more then just one city...
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Old February 28th, 2008, 12:17 PM   #134
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if you Poles helped admiral Kolchak and Czechoslovak Legions who controlled Siberia in 1918-1920, world should look a little bit different now.

But it is the past and lot of bad happened.. it will be better to think of the future.. that's purpose of this forum if I'm right?
If you helped Polish army in 1920 world should look a little bit different now...

Quote:
You occupied Teschenland

After the end of World War I, both of the two newly created independent states of Poland and Czechoslovakia claimed the area. Czechoslovakia claimed the area partly on historic and ethnic grounds, but especially on economic grounds. The area was important for the Czechs, as the crucial railway line connecting Czech Silesia with Slovakia crossed the area (the Košice-Bohumín Railway, which was one of only two railroads that linked the Czech provinces to Slovakia at that time). The western area of Cieszyn Silesia is also very rich in coal. Many important coal mines, facilities and metallurgy factories are located there. The Polish side based its claim to the area on ethnic criteria: a majority of the area's population was Polish according to the last (1910) Austrian census.

Czech/Czechoslovakia 23 January 1919 invaded the area while Poland was engaged in its war against the West Ukrainian National Republic.

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my last words in this thread.
Bye,Bye!
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Old February 28th, 2008, 12:32 PM   #135
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Hmm, I am not an historician, but I've read many czech and german historician's work about 30s in Central Europe so I think I am familiar with this period well. The fact is that your regime before WW2 was strongly anti-czechoslovakian and anti-democratic, that's the pure fact. Beck cooperated with Nazi Germany. You occupied Teschenland with your army after Münich agreement, a terrible agression in the same time the Germans anexed Sudetenland - when we were down. It was very brave from you. If your regime was more democratic and czechoslovak-friendly, we should crush Hitler's ambitions in few months! And the same with soviets - if you Poles helped admiral Kolchak and Czechoslovak Legions who controlled Siberia in 1918-1920, world should look a little bit different now.

But it is the past and lot of bad happened.. it will be better to think of the future.. that's purpose of this forum if I'm right?
There were problems on both sides, it's not fair to blame only Poles for bad relations. Polish government had even a grand "Miedzymorze" -alliance project which was to include Czechoslovakia. Unfortunately Czechoslovakia was keenly cooperating with Poland's mortal enemies, the Soviets.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mi%C4%99dzymorze

About the Tesin, yes it was wrong to use a moment of weakness to force Czechoslovakia to cede it's lands to Poland. But i assure you, there was no deal between Nazi Germany and Poland to divide your country.

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On 1 October 1938 the area was annexed by Poland following the Munich Conference.[33] The Polish Army, commanded by General Władysław Bortnowski, annexed an area of 801.5 km² with a population of 227,399 people. Within the region originally demanded by Nazi Germany was the important railway junction city of Bohumin. The Poles regarded the city as of crucial importance to the area. Polish leader, Colonel Józef Beck believed that he must act rapidly to forestall the German occupation of the city. At noon on September 30, Poland gave an ultimatum to the Czech government. It demanded the immediate evacuation of Czech troops and police and gave Prague time until noon the following day. At 11:45 A.M. on October 1 the Czech foreign ministry called the Polish ambassador in Prague and told him that Poland could have what it wanted. The Germans were delighted with this outcome. They were happy to give up a provincial rail center to Poland, it was a small sacrifice indeed. It spread the blame and confused the issue, Poland was accused of being an accomplice of Germany - a charge that Warsaw was hard put to deny.[34]
And you are of course aware that at the time in 1920 when Zaolzie was incorporated into Czechoslovakia, it had a Polish ethnic majority, right? The conflict was there for a reason, of course it's sad that our countries couldn't get over it to defend together a greater interest.
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Old February 28th, 2008, 02:49 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by Norkey View Post
Hmm, I am not an historician, but I've read many czech and german historician's work about 30s in Central Europe so I think I am familiar with this period well. The fact is that your regime before WW2 was strongly anti-czechoslovakian and anti-democratic, that's the pure fact. Beck cooperated with Nazi Germany. You occupied Teschenland with your army after Münich agreement, a terrible agression in the same time the Germans anexed Sudetenland - when we were down. It was very brave from you. If your regime was more democratic and czechoslovak-friendly, we should crush Hitler's ambitions in few months! And the same with soviets - if you Poles helped admiral Kolchak and Czechoslovak Legions who controlled Siberia in 1918-1920, world should look a little bit different now.

But it is the past and lot of bad happened.. it will be better to think of the future.. that's purpose of this forum if I'm right?
Indeed, taking Zaolzie was bad, unhonorable move, shame on us, Poles.

But rest of your arguments is false. There was no cooperation, alliance between Poland and III Reich. Heh, because Poland after death of our great leader, Pilsudski, was more democratic than before, there was no clear war plan and no stricke ccoperation with Czechoslovakia. Pilsudski permanetly and consistently repeated, that Hitler is a danger, which has to destoyed. Also Pilsudski predicted, when III Reich will be stronger than Poland (when he died,
he also, immidietly after Hitler's victory in 1933 proposed preemptive strike on III Reich together with France (proposition was cowardly refused by France).

Polish democratic goverment tried to contact with Czechoslovakian goverment, even an diplomant has been sended to Czechoslovakia, however, there was no cinsistent plan what to do, no cinsistent approach to Czechoslovakia either, no war plans on Czechoslovakian side (indeed, cowardly abondoned by West "allies", with this f*king traitor Chamberlain ahead).

Poland also did a mistake by refusing Soviet propositon of opening air space for Soviet interceptors, as Soviets wanted to help Czechoslovakia (other Soviet proposition, about allowing land troops to enter on Poland's lands in order to reach III Reich could not be accepted as Soviets wouldn't leave our lands after...).

I am sure Pilsudski wouldn't do such mistakes.

BTW, Pilsudski contacted with Whites during Bolshevik-Poland War 1920-21. He offered help, with condition that after victory they will accept Poland's sovereignity. His offer was refused, Whites told, that case of Poland "will be discussed later" what meant, that they will crush our country after victory over Bolsheviks. Pilsudski had no choice and didn't help them (what triggered fury in West capitols...). Poland had no chice but alone stand agaist Bolsheviks...no help from West, no help from Whites side...
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Old February 28th, 2008, 03:56 PM   #137
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Actually areas like Berlin were mostly destroyed due to revenge by the Russians. Much of the destruction and slaughter was done after Russians took Berlin. Berlin was taken rather house by house and then bombed to simply destroy it, or at least that is what I read in a National Geographic about Berlin's destruction. The Russians had many areas torn down. What the Nazi's did was disgusting and the lowest level of WWII, but don't put a crown on the allied forces either. They killed many civilians including people who rejected Nazi ideas all together or had done nothing to contribute to such slaughter. The treatment of German CIVILIANS after WWII by Russia was disgusting. Constant rape, murder, and theft towards even children was not a rare sight. Regardless of what a civilian supports, they should only be treated for their physical actions. If someone wanted to enslave every child in the world then I would think they are revolting, but I would not attack them until they did such a crime to humanity. The problem was, that many allied forces put every German speaking person into one pot and assumed them all Nazis, so they treated them all as nazis. Often even children.
What it this about
Do you think the Germs were any better just couple of years earlier in USRR and half of Europe. They just get what they started. That's all.
Anyway, this tread should be
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Old February 28th, 2008, 05:25 PM   #138
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What it this about
Do you think the Germs were any better just couple of years earlier in USRR and half of Europe. They just get what they started. That's all.
Anyway, this tread should be
No. I'm just saying that the treatment of civilians after WWII in Germany was downright bad(sadly that was the case in many European nations).
So are you saying because these people supported the disgusting nazis that they deserved to be murdered, raped, and robbed? I judge people by their actions, not their disgusting ideas.
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Old February 28th, 2008, 05:25 PM   #139
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Even worse
get out of the dark ages.
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Old February 28th, 2008, 07:33 PM   #140
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...Good Work...
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Ein geeintes Deutschland, getragen durch den Gedanken der Freiheit.
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