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Old January 16th, 2006, 05:26 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justme
The best part is the the 'no smoking' sign on top of Sherlock smoking his pipe. Didn't discover the irony in it myself, but it still cracks me up.
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Old January 16th, 2006, 08:34 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justme
Remembering "Circle Line" is no harder than remembering to shop on "Oxford Street" or you live on "Hornby Street" etc.
In this case, probably, yes. But generally, lines with names are a major annoyance for visitors of a city, I agree with Falubaz. Names may be cute and charming and historically interesting and whatever else but they can be extremely hard to remember for someone not used to the city and/or the language.

Remembering a station name in combination with a line number is ok but remembering two names is much harder (you can confuse similar-sounding lines like Hammersmith&City and Waterloo&City or you can confuse station and line names with each other). Try remembering Savyolovskaya station on the Serpukhovsko-Timiryazevskaya line if you are not used to Russian and then try to find your way with all signs being in Cyrillic.

An excellent, classic book about user-friendly design is The Design of Everyday Things by Donald Norman. I'm sure Mr. Norman would agree with me on this.
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Old January 16th, 2006, 12:50 PM   #63
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Then surely then station names would also be numbers?
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Old January 16th, 2006, 05:38 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by micro
In this case, probably, yes. But generally, lines with names are a major annoyance for visitors of a city, I agree with Falubaz. Names may be cute and charming and historically interesting and whatever else but they can be extremely hard to remember for someone not used to the city and/or the language.

Remembering a station name in combination with a line number is ok but remembering two names is much harder (you can confuse similar-sounding lines like Hammersmith&City and Waterloo&City or you can confuse station and line names with each other). Try remembering Savyolovskaya station on the Serpukhovsko-Timiryazevskaya line if you are not used to Russian and then try to find your way with all signs being in Cyrillic.

An excellent, classic book about user-friendly design is The Design of Everyday Things by Donald Norman. I'm sure Mr. Norman would agree with me on this.
Talking about this, figures have actually an advantage on names, they are international. That's very helpful for tourists.

As I've already told it, I come from a city which used to give names to lines and which have switched to a numeric system. In the 30's, no one knew what were the line 1, 10 or 12. They only knew the lines "Maillot-Vincennes", "Boulogne-Austerlitz" and "Issy-la Chapelle". The system has been numerized for convenient reasons... and I'm sure this is a lot more user friendly for tourists.

The reason for this is simple. When a tourist see that sign , if he's english he will read "line eight", if he's german he'll read "linië acht", if he's french he'll read "ligne huit". It's always easier to remember a name in your own language than in a foreign language.

Remembering "Italie-Pantin" isn't hard if you're from Paris as you know where are located the place d'Italie and Pantin, but if you're a tourist, you have absolutely no idea what those places are, and a figure, something completely international, is more user friendly.

Now, it's not that serious. All systems are fine. Especially that tourists always tend to remember colours of lines even before the names of lines. Once again, a colour is international, it's something visual, hence easier to recognize.

Last edited by Metropolitan; January 16th, 2006 at 05:44 PM.
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Old January 16th, 2006, 06:08 PM   #65
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Fair enough, most of my Dutch mates refer to the London lines by their colour. But I suspect they would still primarily use colours if London used numbers. Most however don't even intend to memorise one bit and just keep looking at the map for ever and ever.
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Old January 16th, 2006, 06:19 PM   #66
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micro and metropolitan - thx. it's nice to know there are people who do understand u. that's exactly what i was trying to say all the time, but my english is not so fine to explain it in the right way .
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Old January 16th, 2006, 06:31 PM   #67
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I find numbers and letter inpersonal and therefore hard to remember. Names give an identity to a station or line and therefore much easier to remember.

Think of it like a brand. Whats easier to remember Coca Cola or Drink 1?
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Old January 16th, 2006, 06:40 PM   #68
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Old January 16th, 2006, 07:00 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metropolitan
The reason for this is simple. When a tourist see that sign , if he's english he will read "line eight", if he's german he'll read "linië acht", if he's french he'll read "ligne huit". It's always easier to remember a name in your own language than in a foreign language.
Again, how does this really help. The stations are still by name. A
German tourist to Paris still has to remember stations such as "Chaussée
d'Antin La Fayette"
, "Trinite d'Estienne d'Oeuvres" or "Villejuif Paul
Valiant-Cauturior"


At Least a German in London can use this map

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Old January 16th, 2006, 07:09 PM   #70
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Seriously though, London Underground have 12 different languages for their maps on the official website. Surely that's enough for a tourist.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tube/maps/

Honestly, there is no logic to try and claim "central" Line is too complicated for tourists when all stations also have names. It's just nick picking.

Anyone who thinks [/i]M7 to Villejuif Paul Valiant-Cauturior[/i] is easier for a tourist to remember than [/i]Central to Bond St[/i] is beyond me.
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Old January 16th, 2006, 08:02 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justme
...
Anyone who thinks [/i]M7 to Villejuif Paul Valiant-Cauturior[/i] is easier for a tourist to remember than [/i]Central to Bond St[/i] is beyond me.
in this example u are one-sided
the correct one should be something like that:

'Anyone who thinks [/i]M7 to opera[/i] is easier for a tourist to remember than [/i]Central to Bond St[/i] is beyond me'

or

'Anyone who thinks [/i]M7 to Villejuif Paul Valiant-Cauturior[/i] is easier for a tourist to remember than [/i]Hammersmith and City to King's Cross St. Pancras[/i] is beyond me

now is ur turn.
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Last edited by Falubaz; January 16th, 2006 at 08:27 PM.
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Old January 16th, 2006, 08:34 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justme
At Least a German in London can use this map

A German tourist can have access to a German route planner to get find his way in Paris, but I fail to understand what does this prove...

Quote:
Honestly, there is no logic to try and claim "central" Line is too complicated for tourists when all stations also have names. It's just nick picking.

Anyone who thinks [/i]M7 to Villejuif Paul Valiant-Cauturior[/i] is easier for a tourist to remember than [/i]Central to Bond St[/i] is beyond me.
Do you really believe that "La Courneuve-Ivry-Villejuif to Paul Vaillant-Couturier" would be easier to remember ?
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Old January 16th, 2006, 08:41 PM   #73
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^ how about M7-31a, according to your logic, that would be easier.
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Old January 16th, 2006, 09:31 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justme
^ how about M7-31a, according to your logic, that would be easier.
Well, you're mixing up routes and locations, which are two completely different notions, but anyway let's play your game. In NYC it's not so hard to understand where we are when we say that we are at the corner of the 5th avenue and the 65th street.

Justme, seriously, it doesn't change much. It's not because there's a figure on something that it necessarily loses all its character as you obviously assume. Would you say the 5th avenue in NYC lacks of character ? Would you say that the 13th district, which is Chinatown in Paris, lacks of character ? If you do, let's know that neither New Yorkers in the first case or Parisians in the second case will agree with you. Locations have rarely figures as their names, but if it's the case, then they don't lose their characters because of that.

But the debate is obviously not about attributing figures for locations, it's about attributing figures or litteral names for routes. When you attribute a figure to designate a route, you distinguish better routes and locations.

You're getting a bit childish in here Justme. It's really not that serious...

Last edited by Metropolitan; January 16th, 2006 at 10:03 PM.
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Old January 16th, 2006, 10:03 PM   #75
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Just to spice things up.
This is a map of the Stockholm subway.


It consists of 3 separate systems. These all have branches, and - although not visible on any map - these branches are infact numbered. Despite this, I don't think I've ever heard someone say "take line 18 to Farsta/line 11 to Akalla/line 14 to Fruängen". Instead, stockholmers refer to each system by it's color, being the obvious choice. Hence, both Universitetet and Ropsten are on the "Red line" despite being on different branches (and frankly, I'm not sure which one of those is line 13 and line 14 ) I have never thought of this as a problem, despite the subway having 7 different services (at least) and 100 stations.
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Old January 16th, 2006, 10:09 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yako
Just to spice things up.
This is a map of the Stockholm subway.


It consists of 3 separate systems. These all have branches, and - although not visible on any map - these branches are infact numbered. Despite this, I don't think I've ever heard someone say "take line 18 to Farsta/line 11 to Akalla/line 14 to Fruängen". Instead, stockholmers refer to each system by it's color, being the obvious choice. Hence, both Universitetet and Ropsten are on the "Red line" despite being on different branches (and frankly, I'm not sure which one of those is line 13 and line 14 ) I have never thought of this as a problem, despite the subway having 7 different services (at least) and 100 stations.
That system is very similar to the one in New York City.
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Old January 16th, 2006, 10:27 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nick-taylor
Then surely then station names would also be numbers?
Funny you should mention... Stations on Singapore's MRT system have alphanumeric codes associated with them, alongside their actual station names. For example, Queenstown is the 19th station from the east on the East-West Line, so its code is EW19.

Interchange stations have 2 or more codes depending on which lines pass through them; eg. Jurong East (a terminus on the North-South Line; interchange with East-West Line) is EW24/NS1.

I'm surprised the Singaporean members on this board haven't chimed in yet.
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Old January 16th, 2006, 11:16 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metropolitan
That system is very similar to the one in New York City.
In many respects yes. However, no one in NYC will say, "Take the Orange or Blue line to Columbus Circle." They would say "take the A, B, C, or D trains to Columbus circle, A and C being blue, and B and D being in orange.

In fact, no one EVER relies on colors, except for tourists. New Yorkers just refer to letters and numbers. Very simple, as multiple lines often run on the same tracks at points.
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Old January 16th, 2006, 11:39 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hinto
Funny you should mention... Stations on Singapore's MRT system have alphanumeric codes associated with them, alongside their actual station names. For example, Queenstown is the 19th station from the east on the East-West Line, so its code is EW19.

Interchange stations have 2 or more codes depending on which lines pass through them; eg. Jurong East (a terminus on the North-South Line; interchange with East-West Line) is EW24/NS1.

I'm surprised the Singaporean members on this board haven't chimed in yet.
I was actually referring to a system that used only numbers for lines and stations. Yet I was aware of systems that number stations...but with the Singapore MRT it is an alphanumerical code, ie the abreviated line name E+W and then the station number.

Such a system would be unworkable in cities like New York, Paris or London due to their large network and multiple interchanges (there are only 6 heavy rail interchanges in Singapore for example). For smaller networks this is a reasonable and intelligent system, but it would complicate matters in larger systems, for example King's Cross St Pancras tube station in London would be: N23/P13/V7/HC16/M6/C15. Factor in that there are other interchange stations around the locality, then maps become illegible and that defeats the purpose of them.




What I don't get is that this whole debacle started after Falubaz began an all out attack on the London Underground! Now what is interesting is that the same people who note that London should have loose its line names, insist that stations should retain their names! In simple terms that is called a contradiction and no matter what those ideas may be. The London Underground has managed for close to 150 years with the system and even in todays modern world people are still capable of using the system.
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Old January 17th, 2006, 12:30 AM   #80
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of course, nick-taylor, u're quite right. stations should retain their names, but not the lines
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Last edited by Falubaz; January 17th, 2006 at 12:38 AM.
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