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Old January 17th, 2006, 02:41 AM   #81
Metropolitan
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Well, to designate a station, it's rather obvious that the best will be to get a name refering to something which is above. That's about locations. It has nothing to do with routes, which by definition, crosses several locations.

The Metropolitan line refers to nothing special. About the Victoria line, it refers to a station where you can also get the district line and the circle line. The name of lines in London are somewhat traditional, but it's not really a helpful indication about anything. That's not the case of stations name.


@DonQui : You're indeed right that in NYC people refers to lines instead of their colours and obviously not in Stockholm, but that's I guess a matter of habit. Obviously the guys who managed Stockholm's subway attributed figures to lines to make it in the way of NYC, but people didn't see it that way.

But anyway, the "lines" in NYC are what we call in French "missions" or "services" (itineraries taken by specific trains and not others but with a common portions taken by several other "missions") more than factual lines. For instance, the district line in London would be several lines in New York.

Last edited by Metropolitan; January 17th, 2006 at 02:47 AM.
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Old January 17th, 2006, 03:37 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justme
Come on, stop whinging.

In North America it is common to use numbers for street names. It's a good system still, and I can see why they like it. But in most of the rest of the world, we use names. Each city has thousands of names for all the streets and it seems to work pretty well.

In fact, it's the opposite for Freeway's, Motorway's or Autobahns - whatever you want to call it. In North America, Freeway's often have names, e.g. "Santa Monica Freeway" as vrs most of Europe which tend to use numbers: M40. Both seem to work well.

Would you prefer your street to be changed to a number? Would you find that easier? Then why go on about London's naming convention on the Tube?

Remembering "Circle Line" is no harder than remembering to shop on "Oxford Street" or you live on "Hornby Street" etc.

I simply don't believe you when you say it's much easier to say or remember a number for a metro line. If you have no problems with street names, then you have no problems with Tube names.

Both work pretty well. Of cause, you could always take it further. The ultimate naming scheme would be Alphanumeric for all lines and stations. All lines are letters of the Alphabet, and all stations are numbers. Then a station would be called A6 or G23. It would be obvious that if you are at G10 and had to get off at G23, it would be 13 stops.

But then, would you really prefer all the names on your own metro to be abolished for numbers?
Canada and USA use mostly numbers, there are names, but the number is what is most often shown on maps or used to give directions.
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Old January 17th, 2006, 03:40 AM   #83
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Line 1 doesn't refer to anything special either so where is your point! Simple matter of the fact is that named lines have existed far longer than numbered lines in the length of metro line naming history! I would also consider the METROpolitan line to be slightly special - afterall its the first underground/subway/metro line in the world and the Paris METRO is named after this line!

Yet I don't see the significance in calling it metro line 1 or line A or anything like that over the names that the London Underground has at the moment! If London were to adopt such a situation, not only would that be destroying history, but it wouldn't boost efficiency (most likely it would be the reverse as most people who had come to know the Underground would be disorientated by any imaginable change), the lines would loose their identity and the lines would lack that unique factor amongst the metro lines of the world.

Also if numbers are so important - please answer this question: why are people not assigned numbers? Why are stations not assigned solely numbers (ie no name, no alphanumerical name)?

And if anyone also says its hard to remember a line name, but not a station name then I really do question their sanity which a few forumers here seem to be adhering too.
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Old January 17th, 2006, 05:36 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nick-taylor
Then surely then station names would also be numbers?
No, definitely not! If both were numbers you could confuse which was the line number and which was the station numer. And it is easier to remember two different things like a number and a name than two of the same kind.

Furthermore, station names definitely relate to the location so it's straightforward to name the stations. But line names cannot easily relate to locations because lines usually run through many locations. A line name that is supposed to properly relate to location must therefore consist of several names (like Hammersmith&City or Serpukhovsko-Timiryazevskaya) which makes it even more complicated.

Apart from line numbers, I also like colour names for lines, like Red Line, Green Line, which are used in many US subways. But this wouldn't work in systems with many lines like Paris. And it wouldn't work as good in languages where colour names (and the word "line") have more than one or two syllables (like German).

Last edited by micro; January 17th, 2006 at 05:53 AM.
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Old January 17th, 2006, 05:42 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nick-taylor
I would also consider the METROpolitan line to be slightly special - afterall its the first underground/subway/metro line in the world and the Paris METRO is named after this line!
Nice idea, would be interesting to know if this is true.


Quote:
Originally Posted by nick-taylor
If London were to adopt such a situation, not only would that be destroying history, but it wouldn't boost efficiency (most likely it would be the reverse as most people who had come to know the Underground would be disorientated by any imaginable change), the lines would loose their identity and the lines would lack that unique factor amongst the metro lines of the world.
Line names and numbers could be kept in parallel, I believe this is the case in Moscow.
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Old January 17th, 2006, 06:11 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metropolitan
But anyway, the "lines" in NYC are what we call in French "missions" or "services" (itineraries taken by specific trains and not others but with a common portions taken by several other "missions") more than factual lines. For instance, the district line in London would be several lines in New York.
The "lines" in NYC aren't lines, but routes. Technically, the lines have names:

IRT East Side Line
IRT West Side Line
IRT Grand Central-Times Square Shuttle
IRT Flushing Line
IRT Woodlawn Line
IRT Lenox-White Plains Rd.-Dyre Ave. Line
IRT Pelham Line
The Brooklyn IRT

BMT Astoria Line
BMT Brighton Line
BMT Broadway Line
BMT Canarsie Line
BMT Culver Line
BMT Jamaica Line
BMT Myrtle Avenue Line
BMT Sea Beach Line
BMT West End Line
BMT 4th Avenue Line

IND 6th Avenue Line
IND 8th Avenue Line
IND Concourse Line
IND Crosstown Line
IND Fulton Line
IND Queens Boulevard Line
IND Rockaway Line

However, I highly doubt anyone in New York even knows the names to those lines. The "routes" travel along different lines, and are always reffered to by number/letter. The numbering/lettering scheme is completely arbitrary.










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Old January 17th, 2006, 08:25 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metropolitan
Well, you're mixing up routes and locations, which are two completely different notions, but anyway let's play your game. In NYC it's not so hard to understand where we are when we say that we are at the corner of the 5th avenue and the 65th street.

Justme, seriously, it doesn't change much. It's not because there's a figure on something that it necessarily loses all its character as you obviously assume. Would you say the 5th avenue in NYC lacks of character ? Would you say that the 13th district, which is Chinatown in Paris, lacks of character ? If you do, let's know that neither New Yorkers in the first case or Parisians in the second case will agree with you. Locations have rarely figures as their names, but if it's the case, then they don't lose their characters because of that.

But the debate is obviously not about attributing figures for locations, it's about attributing figures or litteral names for routes. When you attribute a figure to designate a route, you distinguish better routes and locations.

You're getting a bit childish in here Justme. It's really not that serious...
I highlighted those words in bold "Justme, seriously, it doesn't change much"

That is exactly what I have been trying to say. It doesn't change much. It doesn't change anything at all. Both systems are just as easy as the other, it all depends what you are used to.

As for calling me childish. That is simply your inability to realize I am not putting your system down. What I am saying is that the London system of using a name for a line is no more difficult than using a number. I am not saying it's easier.

So, if it's childish for me to say both systems are fine, it's just what people are used to, yet it is not childish for you to insist your Parisian system is better, well, then you can have your childish comment. I suppose anyone who doesn't agree with you 100% is childish.

Think about this for a sec before you reply.
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Old January 18th, 2006, 01:26 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by micro
No, definitely not! If both were numbers you could confuse which was the line number and which was the station numer. And it is easier to remember two different things like a number and a name than two of the same kind.

Furthermore, station names definitely relate to the location so it's straightforward to name the stations. But line names cannot easily relate to locations because lines usually run through many locations. A line name that is supposed to properly relate to location must therefore consist of several names (like Hammersmith&City or Serpukhovsko-Timiryazevskaya) which makes it even more complicated.

Apart from line numbers, I also like colour names for lines, like Red Line, Green Line, which are used in many US subways. But this wouldn't work in systems with many lines like Paris. And it wouldn't work as good in languages where colour names (and the word "line") have more than one or two syllables (like German).
I still don't see what is complicated though, as surely it should be the other way around with remembering several hundred stations being harder than remembering a dozen or so lines! The system has worked for decades and it only seems to be the most pedantic of forumers here (who also seem to be the most vocal appear and bear grudges against the Underground). Quite simply if there was large enough problems people would be complaining across the place.




Quote:
Originally Posted by micro
Nice idea, would be interesting to know if this is true.
LOL - its not like I made that up! The term of a 'metro' originated from the Metropolitan Railway, which was the first underground/subway/metro line in the world back in 1863. Other cities decided to either name stations, lines or their networks after this monumental line. The Paris Metro is one such network dedicated to the Metropolitan Railway. The information is widely available on the internet.




Quote:
Originally Posted by micro
Line names and numbers could be kept in parallel, I believe this is the case in Moscow.
I wasn't arguing against the use of numbers for metro systems which some forumers are appearing to try with named line metro systems. The systems work with what ever environment they are in.

Yes Hammersmith & City might be a lot to take in, but its easy to identify rather than say a range of numbers. You are for instance unlikely to confuse Hammersmith & City with Central.
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Old January 18th, 2006, 01:45 AM   #89
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@Justme :

You should better calm down, there's really no reason to get that angry. I would have never figured out that a debate about the denominations of lines would get so passionate ! Actually, that's rather funny.

By the way, I fail to see where in here I've claimed Paris system was better. Paris system isn't the only using figures to designate lines. If I've taken that one as example, it's because that's the one I know the best. However, I'm sure that the figures system has been invented elsewhere as I know that wasn't the original system. Furthermore, I have tons of more legitimate reasons to dislike Paris system than the denominations of its lines.
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Old January 18th, 2006, 02:41 AM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nick-taylor
I still don't see what is complicated though, as surely it should be the other way around with remembering several hundred stations being harder than remembering a dozen or so lines! The system has worked for decades and it only seems to be the most pedantic of forumers here (who also seem to be the most vocal appear and bear grudges against the Underground). Quite simply if there was large enough problems people would be complaining across the place.
I was talking about first-time visitors to a city. For residents, it of course doesn't matter if the lines have names or numbers.



Quote:
Originally Posted by nick-taylor
LOL - its not like I made that up! The term of a 'metro' originated from the Metropolitan Railway, which was the first underground/subway/metro line in the world back in 1863. Other cities decided to either name stations, lines or their networks after this monumental line. The Paris Metro is one such network dedicated to the Metropolitan Railway. The information is widely available on the internet.
The French term "métro" is an abbreviation for "chemin de Fer métropolitain" which indeed means metropolitan railway. But it just means urban railway. I doubt that the French guys intended to dedicate the Paris metro to the first line in London, they just chose the most straightforward name for it as the London guys chose the most straightforward name.
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Old January 18th, 2006, 03:09 AM   #91
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Hey guys:
How about talking on world metros signs again?

Also you can post photos of your signs system!
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Old January 18th, 2006, 03:47 AM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bitxofo
Hey guys:
How about talking on world metros signs again?

Also you can post photos of your signs system!
Here's the sign designating the Arbatskaya station of Moscow :



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Old January 18th, 2006, 08:24 AM   #93
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@Alargule :

Sorry I hadn't seen your post and as I widely agree with you there's no problem, however I would like to clarify certain point to get a more accurate picture of things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alargule
C'mon guys, let's not argue over this kind of futile what's-in-a-name-games. It's pointless. There's no clear distinction that can be drawn between different types of systems, simply because it's all in the eye of the beholder.

What you are doing is displaying a 'discontinuous mentality': the (very human, btw) urge to divide each and everything into neat, nicely polished and mutually separated categories. Point is, reality doesn't do in 'categories'.
That's totally true. I think all systems have their specificities and couldn't be compared as easy as many people would like to.

Quote:
You can think of the RER as a suburban network, since it has many of that features (sharing tracks with main railway lines, many bundles lines, rolling stock that comes closer to suburban trains than metro rolling stock). But you could equally well think of it as a metro system (runs underground, independent of other street traffic, high frequency, only used within the urban zone of Paris, which is comparable in size to the London one).
So: you're both right...and you're both wrong. So that leaves the discussion nowhere to go. Happy now?
Several London Tube lines have those specificities. The district line shares tracks with main railway lines, you can find many bundles lines on the Metropolitan, Central, Northern, Piccadilly or District lines, etc.. About the rolling stocks, you can seriously find both. Lines C and D have clearly suburban rolling stocks which are similar to those on the national rails. However, that's less obvious on the other lines.

One of the first thing which have striken me when I visited for the first time London was the similarities between tube lines and the RER. That similarity is the most obvious on the district and circle lines, but not only. Of course, there is the widely suburban aspect of the tube, but there's also the fact it works in zones, or the fact, as you've explained it, that it can share tracks with national rails. But there's even more than that, the general aspect of the network.

Stats are also outstandingly similar between both networks.

The RER B is 80 km long, with 47 stations served (7 in zone 1). That makes an average distance between stations of 1.7 km. Its annual traffic is about 200 million passengers a year and it serves Roissy Airport.

The Piccadilly line is 71 km long, with 52 stations served (11 in zone 1). That makes an average distance between stations of 1.4 km. Its annual traffic is about 180 million passengers a year and it serves Heathrow Airport.

A rather ironic thing is that the RER B has been planned as an extension of the "ligne de Sceaux" (Sceaux line), which was considered amongst Parisians as a metro line before it became the RER (That was the case mainly because the ligne de Sceaux belonged to Paris metro company and appeared on every metro maps).

Now my point is certainly not to consider the RER and the métro in Paris as being the same. Both networks don't serve the same purpose. The métro is a lot slower than the RER, serving stations which are closer to each other and being operated strictly in the city center. The RER on the other side is an express system which is fully a hybrid between a suburban rails system and a metro system. However, it's totally foolish to consider the RER as a mere suburban rail system as it's a lot more than that. Lines of RER are used as metro lines. It's also a completely different system than the suburban rail network which also exists in Paris.

To put it in a nutshell, the RER has to be accepted as an exception.
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Old January 18th, 2006, 08:25 AM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metropolitan
@Justme :

You should better calm down, there's really no reason to get that angry. I would have never figured out that a debate about the denominations of lines would get so passionate ! Actually, that's rather funny.

By the way, I fail to see where in here I've claimed Paris system was better. Paris system isn't the only using figures to designate lines. If I've taken that one as example, it's because that's the one I know the best. However, I'm sure that the figures system has been invented elsewhere as I know that wasn't the original system. Furthermore, I have tons of more legitimate reasons to dislike Paris system than the denominations of its lines.
You insult me and then point out I am getting so passionate? Maybe you should read your own posts every now and again.

And if you can't even remember where you claimed the Paris system was better, try reading nearly every post you made on this thread. Exclaiming how names were so much harder to follow than numbers. London's system uses names, Paris uses numbers.

Read your own posts It's helps.
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Old January 18th, 2006, 08:40 AM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justme
You insult me and then point out I am getting so passionate? Maybe you should read your own posts every now and again.
I sincerly apologize for having used that word "childish" which was certainly misused. I'm really sorry if it has hurt you. I simply didn't understand why you were so passionate as the topic wasn't that hot after all !

Quote:
And if you can't even remember where you claimed the Paris system was better, try reading nearly every post you made on this thread. Exclaiming how names were so much harder to follow than numbers. London's system uses names, Paris uses numbers.
The only thing I wanted to make in this thread was to calm everyone... but obviously I've done the opposite.

I've constantly repeated that names or figures didn't make that much a difference, I've started in insisting on the fact we always remember first colours. I don't even understand why I have to explain myself.

And by the way, I really didn't want to make of it a "Paris vs London" issue. Subways in Madrid, Barcelona, Rome, Berlin use figures for lines, and many others do either. Maybe I should have taken one of those systems as example.

I should also notice that the problem in the names of lines in Paris was that they were corresponding to their terminus stations, and hence names where changing at each extensions. This is not a problem London lines have. Hence the reason why Paris metro abandonned its traditional names doesn't exist in London. Maybe if I had clarified that earlier it would have helped.

Quote:
Read your own posts It's helps.
I'm sincerly sorry if I hurt you. That was certainly not something I wanted to do. Now I hope that this thread will get back on topic as that kind of arguments generally go nowhere.

Peace ?

Last edited by Metropolitan; January 18th, 2006 at 08:51 AM.
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Old January 18th, 2006, 08:53 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metropolitan
If that's all about the fact I've considered you behaved in a childish way, then I apologize. I'm sincerly sorry if it has hurt you. I simply don't understand why you're so passionate in this thread.

The only thing I wanted to make in this thread was to calm everyone... but obviously I've done the opposite as you're so excited. I've constantly repeated that names or figures didn't make that much a difference, I've started in insisting on the fact we always remember first colours. I don't even understand why I have to explain myself.

And by the way, I really didn't want to make of it a Paris vs London issue. Subways in Madrid, Barcelona, Rome, Berlin use figures for lines, and many others do either. Maybe you wouldn't have got that mad if I've taken one of those systems as example.

You should also read yourself. And try to wonder why you're making such a fuss for nothing.

I'm sincerly sorry if I hurt you. That was certainly not something I wanted to do. Now I hope that this thread will get back on topic as that kind of arguments generally go nowhere.

Peace ?
If my words are a description of passion to you, then you must surely be one very listless person But you have to admit, you took that step down when you called me childish, simply because I didn't agree with you.

Anyway, I always advocate peace. Unless you're endlessly blabbering your rhetoric about the RER being a full metro I quite enjoy your posts.
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Old January 18th, 2006, 02:42 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by micro
I was talking about first-time visitors to a city. For residents, it of course doesn't matter if the lines have names or numbers.
Then surely every system is confusing for visitors! It doesn't matter if the system uses names or numbers - people not used to the system will have to climatise to it!


Quote:
Originally Posted by micro
The French term "métro" is an abbreviation for "chemin de Fer métropolitain" which indeed means metropolitan railway. But it just means urban railway. I doubt that the French guys intended to dedicate the Paris metro to the first line in London, they just chose the most straightforward name for it as the London guys chose the most straightforward name.
You just answered you own question! Its not like I'm lying or making it up - I thought this was common knowledge as well!




Quote:
Originally Posted by Metropolitan
Several London Tube lines have those specificities. The district line shares tracks with main railway lines, you can find many bundles lines on the Metropolitan, Central, Northern, Piccadilly or District lines, etc.. About the rolling stocks, you can seriously find both. Lines C and D have clearly suburban rolling stocks which are similar to those on the national rails. However, that's less obvious on the other lines.

One of the first thing which have striken me when I visited for the first time London was the similarities between tube lines and the RER. That similarity is the most obvious on the district and circle lines, but not only. Of course, there is the widely suburban aspect of the tube, but there's also the fact it works in zones, or the fact, as you've explained it, that it can share tracks with national rails. But there's even more than that, the general aspect of the network.

Stats are also outstandingly similar between both networks.

The RER B is 80 km long, with 47 stations served (7 in zone 1). That makes an average distance between stations of 1.7 km. Its annual traffic is about 200 million passengers a year and it serves Roissy Airport.

The Piccadilly line is 71 km long, with 52 stations served (11 in zone 1). That makes an average distance between stations of 1.4 km. Its annual traffic is about 180 million passengers a year and it serves Heathrow Airport.

A rather ironic thing is that the RER B has been planned as an extension of the "ligne de Sceaux" (Sceaux line), which was considered amongst Parisians as a metro line before it became the RER (That was the case mainly because the ligne de Sceaux belonged to Paris metro company and appeared on every metro maps).

Now my point is certainly not to consider the RER and the métro in Paris as being the same. Both networks don't serve the same purpose. The métro is a lot slower than the RER, serving stations which are closer to each other and being operated strictly in the city center. The RER on the other side is an express system which is fully a hybrid between a suburban rails system and a metro system. However, it's totally foolish to consider the RER as a mere suburban rail system as it's a lot more than that. Lines of RER are used as metro lines. It's also a completely different system than the suburban rail network which also exists in Paris.

To put it in a nutshell, the RER has to be accepted as an exception.
I believe there are no tracks where the district line and commuter lines use. There are though District line tracks running alongside commuter line tracks which is something totally different.

Either way you word it no authoritative source states the RER to be a metro system and because it might not be a metro system doesn't imply that somehow the London Underground is not a metro system. I should add that if the RER is a metro system then that would imply that most of the suburban services that operate within London but don't actually leave its boundaries could also be counted! The main difference is that the RER operates predominantly outside the city boundaries of the City of Paris (look at a network map and an actual map), while the London Underground and Paris Metro do not. If you have concerns with city boundaries, then I suggest you take that up with the relevant Parisian authorities.

The RER is similar on many fronts to Thameslink, but I'm not calling that a metro line.
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Old January 18th, 2006, 06:02 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nick-taylor
I believe there are no tracks where the district line and commuter lines use. There are though District line tracks running alongside commuter line tracks which is something totally different.
The best I've read about this was that due to its high frequency all RER lines, including lines D and C, have their specific tracks. If that really make that much a difference...

Quote:
Either way you word it no authoritative source states the RER to be a metro system and because it might not be a metro system doesn't imply that somehow the London Underground is not a metro system. I should add that if the RER is a metro system then that would imply that most of the suburban services that operate within London but don't actually leave its boundaries could also be counted!
There are suburban rails in Paris area which is independent from the RER network. Suburban rails consist mainly of 6 networks : Gare St-Lazare, Gare du Nord, Gare de l'Est, Gare de Lyon, Gare Montparnasse and La Défense. No one is saying that those networks have any similarity with a metro system !

The RER is a hybrid between suburban rails and metro. Hybrid means that it cannot be totally assimilated neither to the suburban rails nor to the metro.

Quote:
The main difference is that the RER operates predominantly outside the city boundaries of the City of Paris (look at a network map and an actual map), while the London Underground and Paris Metro do not. If you have concerns with city boundaries, then I suggest you take that up with the relevant Parisian authorities.
So what you're saying is that before the creation of the Greater London the tube wasn't a metro ?

Quote:
The RER is similar on many fronts to Thameslink, but I'm not calling that a metro line.
You can take the Thameslink with a tube ticket ? There's a train on Thameslink every 90 seconds ? The most similar system to the RER in London is the underground, but that doesn't mean both systems are the same. That doesn't mean the RER is a full metro, once again I repeat it's a hybrid system. The thing is just that it's silly to consider the RER as a mere suburban rails network as it's about not accepting it's far more than that.
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Old January 18th, 2006, 06:43 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by nick-taylor
Then surely every system is confusing for visitors! It doesn't matter if the system uses names or numbers - people not used to the system will have to climatise to it!
Numbers are certainly easier to grasp. We are not talking about what YOU are able to grasp but what the average visitor is able (and willing!) to grasp.


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Originally Posted by nick-taylor
You just answered you own question! Its not like I'm lying or making it up - I thought this was common knowledge as well!
If you are selling apples and place a sign that says "apples" and I am selling apples at the other end of the world and place a sign that says "apples" then I'm certainly not dedicating my apples to yours, we are just using a common term independently. I suppose the same holds true for London's Metropolitan Line and Paris's metro.
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Old January 18th, 2006, 08:00 PM   #100
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the problem here seems to be as follow: 'London should be the best, London should be the first in every matter, the whole world is copping all ideas from London, and the rest of the world is nothing worth, the only thing that counts is LONDON!!!'

if the things are so, then sory for that, how dare we, insulting the holy place - London

from my part I apologise
from that moment London will be always in my haert, always in my mind
let's forget all things that do not come from that fine place, we'll move to London and will forget our places. 'coz it's stupid to live in other places that are not as so good as London is.
sorry, i have to go, to get my ticket to London
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Last edited by Falubaz; January 18th, 2006 at 08:09 PM.
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