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Old January 24th, 2006, 06:07 PM   #141
nick_taylor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metropolitan
Yes I would... Most of the rails have been covered only later on the Metropolitan railway line.

Of course some stations were under tunnels, but as I've said in my post, John Fowler, made its maximum to build its line as less possible under tunnels. We can't talk about "today's metro" before the arrival of electric-powered rolling stocks, which were allowing full underground metro service.
Not all of the original 1863 Metropolitan Line was cut & cover, but the vast majority was. For example Baker Street didn't have a 'roof' added after 1863 because thats the original 1863 brickwork! Remember the majority of the route is below streets: there isn't the possibility for open-air stretches here.

What I think you're getting confused over is that there were 'vents' in the tunnels. If you look at the Baker Street station picture you can see them - they are the holes jutting out from the roof where light is coming through. These could be found around the network when steam power was still being used as not only did they bring in natural light, but also allowed for the steam to escape properly. Most have now been blocked up as there is no need for them, but these were possibly the earliest air conditioning systems any metro had, they weren't though usually above the tracks or stations for obvious reasons as noted previously in this post. I think this is where you were getting confused, but the entire route was mainly underground and it is clearly the first such transport development of its type on the planet.

On other extensions what became quite frequent was to have tunnels under the streets and then to have the stations in a cutting to the side, the result being that some stations have 'mini-trainsheds', eg: Notting Hill Gate.


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Old January 24th, 2006, 06:16 PM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nick-taylor
Central Line is more unique to remember than line 1. District Line is more unique than line 2. Central and District are more distinguishable than line 1 or 2. 12 line names are easier to remember than 700. I also suspect most people would be at a loss to understand where each of those 700 bus lines go to.
I agree that (a handful of) names are probably more distinguishable for the long-term user. But for first-time users like tourists (and London has lots of them) it's a hassle. On the other hand, numbers are easy to use for the visitors and easy to use for long-term users (maybe not quite as easy as names, but easy enough). So if you add up everything, numbers are the better option.


Quote:
Originally Posted by nick-taylor
Yet you proposed that the majority were incorrect
The majority is not always correct.


Quote:
Originally Posted by nick-taylor
I think though, that this has more to do with deep psychological issues with not being able to accept where there is clearly a connection!
Very funny
Actually I only want to make sure that the fact is correct before including it in my website. So I would be glad if you could provide valuable references (until now you only cited wikipedia and made a false reference to tubeman).

Last edited by micro; January 24th, 2006 at 06:22 PM.
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Old January 24th, 2006, 06:21 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by Justme
Now, your welcome to show 7 sites that claim the London metro was not a metro until electrification (which the first was in 1890 by the way)
So what's the difference then? If you count 1890 for London, it's also the world's first metro. According to popular definitions, a metro is powered electrically: http://www.urbanrail.net/about.htm#definition
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Old January 24th, 2006, 06:22 PM   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nick-taylor
Not all of the original 1863 Metropolitan Line was cut & cover, but the vast majority was. For example Baker Street didn't have a 'roof' added after 1863 because thats the original 1863 brickwork! Remember the majority of the route is below streets: there isn't the possibility for open-air stretches here.

What I think you're getting confused over is that there were 'vents' in the tunnels. If you look at the Baker Street station picture you can see them - they are the holes jutting out from the roof where light is coming through. These could be found around the network when steam power was still being used as not only did they bring in natural light, but also allowed for the steam to escape properly. Most have now been blocked up as there is no need for them, but these were possibly the earliest air conditioning systems any metro had, they weren't though usually above the tracks or stations for obvious reasons as noted previously in this post. I think this is where you were getting confused, but the entire route was mainly underground and it is clearly the first such transport development of its type on the planet.

On other extensions what became quite frequent was to have tunnels under the streets and then to have the stations in a cutting to the side, the result being that some stations have 'mini-trainsheds', eg: Notting Hill Gate.[/IMG]
I know this perfectly. However, the problem with steam-powered rolling stock was smoke. You know this. That's the reason why tunnels were considered as hell at those times. What I'm saying is what I have read, I haven't invented it. The first underground lines were at open air as much as possible to evacuate the smoke.

I just want to make this clear since Justme invented words I've never expressed. The London Underground was the first metro in the whole universe. I'm NOT denying this !

What I'm simply saying is that MODERN METROS, as those we can see TODAY, cannot be compared with the steam-powered rolling stock of that time. The electric-powered stocks allowed to build full Underground rail lines being able to cross the cities in their very heart. It's a historical additional remark, certainly not a denial of London being the first metro.

You guys are getting really nervous for nothing.
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Old January 24th, 2006, 06:24 PM   #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by micro
So what's the difference then? If you count 1890 for London, it's also the world's first metro. According to popular definitions, a metro is powered electrically: http://www.urbanrail.net/about.htm#definition
He references that as a definition of today's metro, in that electrification is part of his personal requirements. As vrs of cause the alternative being urban diesel networks.
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Old January 24th, 2006, 06:32 PM   #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justme
He references that as a definition of today's metro, in that electrification is part of his personal requirements. As vrs of cause the alternative being urban diesel networks.
That's exactly what I was saying Justme !

Today's metro is the expression I've used to differenciate the metropolitan line of then, which was a metro, to the metros we see everywhere in the world today.

Justme, you will be back my friend once you'll stop to think that each of the words I'm expressing is dedicated to put down London. I would really enjoy having a sane relationship with you.
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Old January 24th, 2006, 06:37 PM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metropolitan
Justme, don't behave like a troll and read my posts. Tell me where I deny that the metropolitan line is the first metro line in the world and come back.

YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO DISTORT MY WORDS AND MAKE ME SAY SOMETHING I HAVEN'T SAID.
You really ought to calm down here. If I don't agree with what you are saying, I will simply state my thoughts. This is not distortion of your words. As in the example above, I thought you should have changed the words "we" to "I" as "we" certainly don't agree on the same level here.

Metropolitan. I don't dislike you, in fact the opposite, I respect the enormous amount of knowledge you have on the Parisian rail network and I enjoy most of your posts. But if I don't agree with everything you say, that doesn't make me a troll.

Now feel free to debate, but quit it with the insults please.
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Old January 24th, 2006, 06:40 PM   #148
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Circle line is easier for a first-time visitor than any number, and there are a number (ha ha) of other lines with a geographically based name that make sense. But in the end I don't think it matters one bit as 99% of tourists will think in colours anyway.
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Old January 24th, 2006, 06:43 PM   #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by micro
I agree that (a handful of) names are probably more distinguishable for the long-term user. But for first-time users like tourists (and London has lots of them) it's a hassle. On the other hand, numbers are easy to use for the visitors and easy to use for long-term users (maybe not quite as easy as names, but easy enough). So if you add up everything, numbers are the better option.

The majority is not always correct.

Very funny
Actually I only want to make sure that the fact is correct before including it in my website. So I would be glad if you could provide valuable references (until now you only cited wikipedia and made a false reference to tubeman).
Yet the vast number of tourists seem very capable of understanding the network. Like all networks there is a period of alignment, but people still manage to get through it and I've never seen on my travels a person get confused over lines, if anything its about stations and even then station maps are split up into grid squares with an A-Z identifying the location of each station on the map. If anything its ignorance of not looking at a map or blindly running around catching the nearest train that gets people lost in any type of system.

The majority tends to be correct most of the time.

Until now, you've made some suggestions that possibly the term of 'Metropolitan Railway' somehow existed before London's Metropolitan Railway of 1863, that it was not unique or creative in name and that it was a 'fluke' that Paris so happened to come across 'Metropolitan Railway' for a name!




Quote:
Originally Posted by Metropolitan
I know this perfectly. However, the problem with steam-powered rolling stock was smoke. You know this. That's the reason why tunnels were considered as hell at those times. What I'm saying is what I have read, I haven't invented it. The first underground lines were at open air as much as possible to evacuate the smoke.

I just want to make this clear since Justme invented words I've never expressed. The London Underground was the first metro in the whole universe. I'm NOT denying this !

What I'm simply saying is that MODERN METROS, as those we can see TODAY, cannot be compared with the steam-powered rolling stock of that time. The electric-powered stocks allowed to build full Underground rail lines being able to cross the cities in their very heart. It's a historical additional remark, certainly not a denial of London being the first metro.

You guys are getting really nervous for nothing.
I've noted this already though - I said that it wasn't all underground and that there were vents in place to ensure the smoke could properly escape! The first underground line though was mostly underground, you talk of plural which is true because the further expansions saw at-grade, cutting or embankment lines constructed, but not true for the first segment which was predominantly underground. I suggest you take a trip along the Hammersmith & City Line (originally it was the Metropolitan Railway) along to Farringdon and you'll note that only at a few times actual sunlight and you'll note that there are numerous vents.
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Old January 24th, 2006, 06:59 PM   #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justme
You really ought to calm down here. If I don't agree with what you are saying, I will simply state my thoughts. This is not distortion of your words. As in the example above, I thought you should have changed the words "we" to "I" as "we" certainly don't agree on the same level here.

Metropolitan. I don't dislike you, in fact the opposite, I respect the enormous amount of knowledge you have on the Parisian rail network and I enjoy most of your posts. But if I don't agree with everything you say, that doesn't make me a troll.

Now feel free to debate, but quit it with the insults please.
You've made me say something I haven't said. I've never said that the Metropolitan line wasn't the first metro line and spitting 7 web links to "convince" me about something I've never denied is trolling.

However, knowing how you can become hypocritical, I guess you won't even accept to recognize this... something which wouldn't surprize me.

I won't respect you anymore as long you don't excuse yourself and remove your post.
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Old January 24th, 2006, 07:13 PM   #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nick-taylor
Yet the vast number of tourists seem very capable of understanding the network. Like all networks there is a period of alignment, but people still manage to get through it and I've never seen on my travels a person get confused over lines
Of course they manage to get through. If there's a jungle or a field with boulders ahead of you, you'll manage to get through. It may just take longer and be more annoying for you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by nick-taylor
Until now, you've made some suggestions that possibly the term of 'Metropolitan Railway' somehow existed before London's Metropolitan Railway of 1863, that it was not unique or creative in name and that it was a 'fluke' that Paris so happened to come across 'Metropolitan Railway' for a name!
Of course the words have existed long before, and every little child could put them together.
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Old January 24th, 2006, 07:35 PM   #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metropolitan
You've made me say something I haven't said. I've never said that the Metropolitan line wasn't the first metro line and spitting 7 web links to "convince" me about something I've never denied is trolling.

However, knowing how you can become hypocritical, I guess you won't even accept to recognize this... something which wouldn't surprise me.

I won't respect you anymore as long you don't excuse yourself and remove your post.
Why should I excuse myself and remove my post? You have often claimed The London Underground is not a full metro but a suburban system. If the search facility worked on this site, I could probably find 7 instances of those comments and post links.

But then you'd call me trolling for providing the links.

Or distorting your words.

Or a Jerk, or any other of the names you like to throw at me.

No, I don't need your acceptance. I don't say nasty things about you, like you do of me, so I ain't going to apologize or take anything back

Seriously, you just can't seem to take people disagreeing with you, and then try and claim people distort your words.

I don't agree with you Metropolitan. That doesn't mean I have anything against you, and that doesn't mean I have to apologize everytime I disagree with you. Just accept that we have different opinions, and for gods sake, stop thinking this is something personal I have against you.

But don't think I'm going'a'grovelling to be your friend
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Old January 24th, 2006, 07:51 PM   #153
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Justme, you're so much full of hypocricy that it's getting disgusting. How can you look at yourself in a mirror. You've pretended I was denying something that I haven't denied. You've sent 7 links to show me that I was wrong to supposedly think something I have never said, and afterwards, you dare wonder why you should excuse yourself ?

About the Underground, I maintain that it is a full metro but closer to the RER network than to Paris metro. And this have nothing to do with the reason why I ask you to excuse yourself so don't mix up things.

I repeat it again. Excuse yourself and erase your post.

Last edited by Metropolitan; January 24th, 2006 at 08:18 PM.
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Old January 24th, 2006, 08:08 PM   #154
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Old January 24th, 2006, 08:22 PM   #155
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This thread should be closed.
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Old January 24th, 2006, 09:01 PM   #156
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^ see, we do agree with each other in other issues
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Old January 24th, 2006, 11:32 PM   #157
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let's forget London and talk about 'subway station signs'
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Old January 25th, 2006, 03:52 AM   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falubaz
let's forget London and talk about 'subway station signs'
Yes, please.
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Old January 25th, 2006, 04:15 PM   #159
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In FGC in Barcelona-Vallès line they are this tipe of sign:







Only in lines L6 & L7 -and suburban services to Sabadell/Terrassa-.

And this is in TMB lines -1, 2, 3, 4, 5 & 11-.










Last edited by UT596001; January 25th, 2006 at 04:29 PM.
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Old January 25th, 2006, 05:57 PM   #160
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i like the Barcelona metro map, 'coz it's put schematic on the road map. besides the signs are ok, too,

but there is something strange on that screen schowing the trains to depart. if 'via' means 'track' or 'rail' and not 'platform' then what's happening at 22.54 on via 1??!! two different trains are going to leave the station at the same time and from the same track!! there must have been some kind of mistake, unless 'via' means 'platform' with two separate tracks or Line L6 and L7 are just the same train splitting at Grecia station. does anyone from Barca know what's going on?
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