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Old January 9th, 2016, 02:44 AM   #21
bodegavendetta
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This piece from 2nd Ave Sagas is spot on, imo.

http://secondavenuesagas.com/2016/01...-penn-station/

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In what I believe was the last day of Cuomo’s whirlwind State of the State preview tour that had him criss-crossing New York to announce various infrastructure upgrades, Cuomo announced two plans of dubious origin yesterday. The first is the bone he threw to upstate politicians who had asked for “parity” with regards to the MTA’s five-year capital plan. The state will, for some reason, spend $22 billion on upstate roads. It is ironically and appropriately called the PAVE NY plan, and it certainly isn’t parity. Considering the economic impact of such spending, the state would have to spend around $50-$60 billion on the MTA to create true parity. That was the appetizer though.

The governor returned to Manhattan early on Wednesday afternoon to announce an initiative that could usher in a completely overhauled Penn Station as early as 2019 — when Cuomo is still likely to be governor. The new plan looks suspiciously similar to the Moynihan Station proposal that’s been gestating for three decades, but it now bears the moniker of the Empire Station Complex, which is not, I’ve been told, Kylo Ren and Snoke’s plan for a replacement for the Starkiller Base. Rather, it is the start of Cuomo hopes is a $3 billion public-private partnership to usher in a “world-class transportation hub” for New York City. Considering our experiences with the other transportation hub at the World Trade Center site, you’ll have to excuse me if I don’t jump for joy.

In presenting this plan, Cuomo managed to praise Robert Moses for “designing for the future” in creating “much of the highway and parks system we still depend on.” You can spend 1000 words unpacking that statement and Cuomo’s intentions alone. Rather, though, let’s talk about what the Penn Station renovations do and what they do not do.

First, they certainly look nice. By shifting the main terminal to the Farley Post Office building site, the plans create a European-style sunlight waiting room with higher ceilings and an overall better passenger experience (less the avenue block walk from the IRT trains) than one currently enjoys at Penn Station. It solves what Cuomo identified as a major problem with Penn Station. “Penn Station is un-New York: it is dark, it is constrained, it is ugly, it is dated architecture, it is a lost opportunity. Travelers are relegated to a bleak warren of corridors,” he said. “Frankly, it’s a miserable experience, to cut to the chase, and to really cut to the chase, it is a terrible introduction to New York.”

But to “fundamentally transform” Penn Station, Cuomo has seemingly forgotten the transit options. His plan:

Penn Station Redevelopment: The existing Penn Station facility, which lies beneath Madison Square Garden and between 7th and 8th Avenues, will be dramatically renovated. The project will widen existing corridors, reconfiguring ticketing and waiting areas, improve connectivity between the lower levels and street level, bring natural light into the facility, improve signage, simplify navigation and reduce congestion, and expand and upgrade the retail offerings and passenger amenities on all levels of the station. The new station will include Wi-Fi, modernized train information displays and streamlined ticketing.

Several design alternatives will be considered, including major exterior renovations involving 33rd street, 7th avenue, 8th avenue, and/or Madison Square Garden Theater…

Farley Post Office Redevelopment: As part of the Governor’s proposal, the Farley Post Office, which sits across 8th Avenue from Penn Station, will be redeveloped into a state-of-the-art train hall for Amtrak, the new train hall, with services for passengers of the Long Island Rail Road, New Jersey Transit and the new Air Train to LaGuardia Airport. The train hall will be connected to Penn Station via an underground pedestrian concourse, and increase the station’s size by 50 percent. At 210,000 square feet, the train hall will be roughly equivalent in size to the main room at Grand Central Terminal. The new facility will offer more concourse and circulation space, include retail space and modern amenities such as Wi-Fi and digital ticketing, and feature 30 new escalators, elevators and stairs to speed passenger flow. The Governor’s proposal also calls for an iconic yet energy-efficient architectural design.


Cuomo presented the proposal with an aggressive timeline. He wants companies to bid on it within 90 days, and as I mentioned, he wants it built within three years. It’s clear this is something he wants to see through as governor. In fact, as The Times reports today, a behind-the-scenes agreement among New York State, Related and Vornado nearly came to fruition last year, but the negotiations simply took too long. Cuomo is now opening up the process so that development companies can bid on parts — that is, only the 7th Ave./33rd St. half or only the Farley rebuild — or all of the renovations at once. Vornado and Related are expected to be involved in the bidding, and Extell and Brookfield will be as well.

Considering we all know that Penn Station is an ugly mess of a train station that doesn’t serve as a particularly alluring gateway to New York City, what, you may wonder, are the objections to this project? Simply put, it is another multi-billion-dollar expense that, by itself, doesn’t do anything to solve the region’s real problem of transit capacity. Amtrak’s CEO Joe Boardman stated that the Penn Station overhaul is “setting the stage for the future expansion of rail service and ridership that will be made possible by the Gateway Program,” but without a firm commitment to build the Gateway Tunnel, the Penn overhaul is nothing more than lipstick on a pig.

And so we arrive back at the problem that Cuomo’s plan is a lot of flash without much substance. Despite promises to build the tunnel in his presentation, we still don’t know what the future holds for Gateway, and nothing Cuomo has said over the past few days of infrastructure press conferences has changed that reality. Gateway exists as an idea with some momentum and vague commitments to reach a funding agreement. There are no dollars flowing, no timelines, no studies, no shovels. Much as the World Trade Center PATH Hub was a $4 billion expense to create a shopping mall, so too might the $3 billion plan to overhaul Penn Station. And the sad part is that for those $7 billion in building expenses, we could have had a new trans-Hudson tunnel sooner rather than later.

Of course, if Gateway materializes, the Penn Station overhaul will be a welcome element of a revitalized midtown transit-scape, but we’re talking multi-billion-dollar, decade-long if’s. Cuomo won’t be in office to cut that ribbon, and supporting a project he won’t be around to see through will take leadership he hasn’t shown yet.
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Old January 9th, 2016, 03:57 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Long Island View Post
Since the garden is already well established. It would make more sense to build the train station in the abandoned post-office, rather than demolish a newly renovated arena, demolish a post office, and build two new buildings.

Whats the difference if the new station is a block west?
It's physically impossible to do this. You can't just pick up and move an entire train station, the track configuration won't allow it.


http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2...teway-project/

MSG's well established nature is irrelevant, even if it were, I would argue if anything it's known for being a subpar arena and if you want to bring in a structures established image and persona, Penn Station is known for being one of the worst train station on the continent. The bottom line is that the Dolan's spent billions doing a renovation knowing that their lease on the site was about to expire, that's their problem, not the problem of the 650,000 commuters a day who have to use Penn.
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Old January 9th, 2016, 07:28 AM   #23
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You'd think the needs of the 650,000 Commuters would overrule the needs of the 19,000 Arena-goers above them.
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Old January 9th, 2016, 07:43 AM   #24
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I really like the direct approach when they built the original station. That's American.

EDIT:
Penn is capable of through routing. But cost issues affect its viability.

Last edited by mrsmartman; January 9th, 2016 at 07:51 AM.
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Old January 9th, 2016, 07:51 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrsmartman View Post
I really like the direct approach when they built the original station. That's American.

EDIT:
Penn is capable of through routing. But cost issues affect its viability.
Btw, will Penn South be the NEC/NJT terminal?
I think Amtrak traffic will be in Penn South and the West Concourse of the Farley Expansion.
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Old January 9th, 2016, 03:14 PM   #26
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You'd think the needs of the 650,000 Commuters would overrule the needs of the 19,000 Arena-goers above them.
Sadly greed and corruption overrule those 650,000 commuters..
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Old January 9th, 2016, 05:02 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReNaHtEiM View Post
Well, but that doesn't make it pretty.
Renderings should look nice: you're selling the sizzle not the steak.

This August 2015 photo by Jeremiah Cox show the "cooking of the (current) steak)", namely some of the seen-by passengers reality of the current "West End Concourse" expansion. AFAIK, this project is supposed to wrap in 2016:




More here:http://subwaynut.com/updates/wp-cont...8/20-50-03.jpg
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Old January 9th, 2016, 06:46 PM   #28
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Closer look at what the West End Concourse Exits/Entrances will look like:




Last edited by Riley1066; January 9th, 2016 at 07:18 PM.
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Old January 9th, 2016, 06:55 PM   #29
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Larger view of the Farley Building Courtyard transformed into a train platform:


The Courtyard as it exists today:
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Old January 9th, 2016, 09:39 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riley1066 View Post
You'd think the needs of the 650,000 Commuters would overrule the needs of the 19,000 Arena-goers above them.
Those 19,000 arena-goers bring in billions of dollars in revenue. There is an event in the Garden almost every night. Most of them take the train into Penn to see the event right up stairs. Do you really want to lose that income to Jersey....again?

MSG stays!!!
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Old January 9th, 2016, 10:25 PM   #31
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The idea that on a pure tax revenue comparison, MSG is comparable to Penn Station is a joke. In basic terms, you're saying 19,000 arena attendees generate the same amount of tax revenue for the city paying exclusively sales taxes on beer and hot dogs, as roughly 650,000 office workers who pay sales taxes as well as city income taxes.

The final nail in the coffin for that argument is that MSG hasn't paid property taxes since the mid 1970's. Who said anything about Jersey?

Want to give it another try?

MSG is a dump. Bring on the bulldozers.
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Old January 9th, 2016, 10:27 PM   #32
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Just move it a few blocks south to the postal processing center...its still close enough to Transit and then rebuild the station as a functioning hub. Around a million people will use the station by 2030...and in its current station it cannot handle anymore even with these changes. MSG would have to be removed and the whole station rebuilt and expanded to boost capacity.
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Old January 9th, 2016, 10:46 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Long Island View Post
Those 19,000 arena-goers bring in billions of dollars in revenue. There is an event in the Garden almost every night. Most of them take the train into Penn to see the event right up stairs. Do you really want to lose that income to Jersey....again?

MSG stays!!!
Again I bet the 650,000 people spend more than the 19,000 do. And I think the roof of Javits is where MSG should go anyway.
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Old January 9th, 2016, 11:19 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by ReNaHtEiM View Post
Well, but that doesn't make it pretty.
It gives a reason to preserve/restore it. Then it'll be pretty
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Old January 10th, 2016, 12:31 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yankeesfan1000 View Post
The idea that on a pure tax revenue comparison, MSG is comparable to Penn Station is a joke. In basic terms, you're saying 19,000 arena attendees generate the same amount of tax revenue for the city paying exclusively sales taxes on beer and hot dogs, as roughly 650,000 office workers who pay sales taxes as well as city income taxes.

The final nail in the coffin for that argument is that MSG hasn't paid property taxes since the mid 1970's. Who said anything about Jersey?

Want to give it another try?

MSG is a dump. Bring on the bulldozers.
I don't need to give it another try. The plans clearly show the MSG is staying put. Whether you like it or not no bulldozers are coming to The Garden.

And I'll continue to enjoy games there for decades to come.
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Old January 10th, 2016, 01:18 AM   #36
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I don't need to give it another try. The plans clearly show the MSG is staying put. Whether you like it or not no bulldozers are coming to The Garden.

And I'll continue to enjoy games there for decades to come.
I doubt it will be for decades ...eventually they will move..
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Old January 10th, 2016, 01:41 AM   #37
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If they demolish MSG, hopefully a new arena will be build somewhere in Manhattan.
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Old January 10th, 2016, 03:21 PM   #38
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Is anyone else sad MSG isn't getting demolished? I mean that building is some 60's era trash. I think more people would want to go to games if they built a new stadium. I sure would.
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Old January 10th, 2016, 05:18 PM   #39
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I don't need to give it another try. The plans clearly show the MSG is staying put. Whether you like it or not no bulldozers are coming to The Garden.

And I'll continue to enjoy games there for decades to come.
What you're not getting is the lease is the key here. The Governor has zero control over that, the people who do have control over it, the New York City Council, want MSG gone. Plain and simple. Just because the Governor proposes a refurbishment of Penn Station doesn't mean that that's actually what's going to get built. He still has to go through city agencies to do all this.
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Old January 10th, 2016, 05:23 PM   #40
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I don't need to give it another try. The plans clearly show the MSG is staying put. Whether you like it or not no bulldozers are coming to The Garden.

And I'll continue to enjoy games there for decades to come.
Clearly, our friend Long Island is biased due to support for the Rangers and a sentimental attachment to MSG. Completely understandable, yet illogical - relocating MSG is definitely an idea worth considering.

It was wrong to build the arena in the first place.
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