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Old January 10th, 2016, 06:19 PM   #41
Weissenberg
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Is anyone else sad MSG isn't getting demolished? I mean that building is some 60's era trash. I think more people would want to go to games if they built a new stadium. I sure would.
I'd say MSG has some sentimental value, it's been home for the Knicks/Rangers for decades now. It'll be demolished some day and it won't be the first time the Garden's being moved. Believe it or not, this is how the 2nd Garden looked like (though it was before the Knicks/Rangers even existed):
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Old January 10th, 2016, 07:16 PM   #42
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Is anyone else sad MSG isn't getting demolished? I mean that building is some 60's era trash. I think more people would want to go to games if they built a new stadium. I sure would.
hmmm...

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Old January 10th, 2016, 07:42 PM   #43
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Cross Section of MSG:


If you take the Forum and Forum Lobby out, as this new Penn Station Overhaul Proposal intends to do, you can dramatically increase the ceiling heights of the station below.

You do very little to address additional train capacity, but you make the train experience much better overall, while retaining the arena above it.

Might wanna remove the bowling alley too ... hehehehe.

I'm not saying its a perfect solution. MSG being totally relocated would be the absolute ideal.

Last edited by Riley1066; January 10th, 2016 at 07:48 PM.
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Old January 11th, 2016, 02:54 AM   #44
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Build the Madison Cube Garden!
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Old January 11th, 2016, 04:23 AM   #45
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who is going to pay to move the garden and build it? it certainly wont be MSG.
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Old January 11th, 2016, 05:36 AM   #46
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Yes but there is a place to relocate Penn. To relocate the Garden would be much harder. We could risk losing two more teams to New Jersey. NYCFC cannot find a place in the 5 Burroughs to build a new arena how will the Rangers and Kicks be more successful? Its already there and the inside is brand new. The most logical solution would be to move Penn a block west and leave the garden where it stands.
If Yankee Stadium is in the Bronx, I'm sure MSG will not be so hard to relocate. The train lines are WAY harder to move around underground compared to a basketball court and several thousand seats (above ground)
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Old January 11th, 2016, 06:40 PM   #47
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If Yankee Stadium is in the Bronx, I'm sure MSG will not be so hard to relocate. The train lines are WAY harder to move around underground compared to a basketball court and several thousand seats (above ground)
you can say that, but MSG corp owns the land above penn station. even if the gardens permit is not renewed, doesnt mean the garden has to move. they just dont have the right to put on events there. if the city is stupid enough to let the permit not renew and then the garden doesnt have events there then they wont reap the benefits of all the tax dollars the garden generates.

if the garden is forced to move, then the govt will have to pay market value for the land and also find a place for a new garden and also probably kick in to pay for it. so where is that money coming from and where will the new building be built in manhattan (it will only be built in manhattan, the outer boros is not happening AT ALL).

first priority of business should be to make sure the new tunnel under the river is on its way to getting built. then expand track capacity, then work on major cosmetic improvements to the station.

personally, i see the end solution as, there is a new MSG theatre in the post office, the area taken out for the theatre is a new entrance to Penn, 33rd street is closed to traffic so they can open it up and let some light into penn and the 7th avenue front between 31st and 33rd gets completely re-done and a new entrance gets put there also. the garden gets a 25 yr permit with them having to pay property tax again.
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Old January 11th, 2016, 08:27 PM   #48
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MSG should be seized through eminent domain.
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Old January 12th, 2016, 05:35 PM   #49
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MSG should be seized through eminent domain.
You're just a hater.
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Old January 13th, 2016, 07:55 AM   #50
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MSG should be seized through eminent domain.
that wont happen.

but if it did, where is the money coming from to pay for the land? where is the city finding a site in manhattan that would be agreeable to MSG for the next MSG? i'll wait for your plan.

where is the $5billion going to come from?
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Old January 13th, 2016, 05:33 PM   #51
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if the garden is forced to move, then the govt will have to pay market value for the land and also find a place for a new garden and also probably kick in to pay for it. so where is that money coming from and where will the new building be built in manhattan (it will only be built in manhattan, the outer boros is not happening AT ALL).
Demolish the current Port Authority Bus Terminal and build a new MSG there. Relocate the PABT to Secaucus Junction Station in New Jersey. Build the new Amtrak/NJT tunnels so there is increased capacity to NYC to handle the bus passengers, and a one seat ride from Bergen County and Raritan Valley lines. Build a new Penn Station where MSG once stood, to handle the increased passenger and train volume (and replace the dungeon). Extend the 7 Train line to Secaucus Junction, to allow redundant rail service from New Jersey and an option to change at Secaucus for service to Grand Central station and the surrounding areas.

The PABT is already due for reconstruction, and it would be a lot cheaper to build it in New Jersey. It would also remove all of those buses from the Lincoln Tunnel and surrounding streets. The "gateway" tunnels and associated corridor improvements are also due for reconstruction. The Penn Station reconstruction is also due. The only change to those plans would be relocating MSG and PABT, which, I think, would be a great plan.
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Old January 13th, 2016, 07:14 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by mikezippo View Post
that wont happen.

but if it did, where is the money coming from to pay for the land? where is the city finding a site in manhattan that would be agreeable to MSG for the next MSG? i'll wait for your plan.

where is the $5billion going to come from?
Eminent Domain usually means little or no money changes hands in the first place.

MSG isn't worth 5 billion dollars in the first place.

I'd be surprised if more than 5 million dollars had to be spent through the Eminent Domain process.

And the whole point of Eminent Domain is to bypass terms agreeable to the obstructionist party (The Dolans).
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Old January 13th, 2016, 07:45 PM   #53
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This will never match the original Penn Station.

https://www.facebook.com/Rebuild-Pen...1167241721740/
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Old January 14th, 2016, 02:59 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Riley1066 View Post
Eminent Domain usually means little or no money changes hands in the first place.

MSG isn't worth 5 billion dollars in the first place.

I'd be surprised if more than 5 million dollars had to be spent through the Eminent Domain process.

And the whole point of Eminent Domain is to bypass terms agreeable to the obstructionist party (The Dolans).
FAQs About the NYS Eminent Domain Procedure Law

Q: What is 'eminent domain'?

A: It is another word for condemnation - the right of the government to take private property for a public purpose. Various examples would be to make way for a road or public park, or to provide housing for disadvantaged persons. The United States and New York Constitutions require the government to pay you fair compensation if it takes your property.

Q: What is fair market value or just compensation?

A: Just compensation is usually considered to be the fair market value - that is, the highest price somebody would pay for the property, were it in the hands of a willing seller. The date upon which the value is assessed will vary, depending upon the governing law. If the parties do not agree on the value, they will typically utilize appraisers to assist in the negotiation process. If the case is litigated, both sides will ordinarily present expert testimony from appraisers as to the fair market value of the property.

so you're going to tell me that the building itself isn't worth over a billion (it just got reconstructed for that much) and the rest of the land isnt worth much? plus you know the dolans would negotiate to have the city kick in to build a new garden. so yes, $5billion.
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Old January 14th, 2016, 03:05 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by scrapesalot View Post
Demolish the current Port Authority Bus Terminal and build a new MSG there. Relocate the PABT to Secaucus Junction Station in New Jersey. Build the new Amtrak/NJT tunnels so there is increased capacity to NYC to handle the bus passengers, and a one seat ride from Bergen County and Raritan Valley lines. Build a new Penn Station where MSG once stood, to handle the increased passenger and train volume (and replace the dungeon). Extend the 7 Train line to Secaucus Junction, to allow redundant rail service from New Jersey and an option to change at Secaucus for service to Grand Central station and the surrounding areas.

The PABT is already due for reconstruction, and it would be a lot cheaper to build it in New Jersey. It would also remove all of those buses from the Lincoln Tunnel and surrounding streets. The "gateway" tunnels and associated corridor improvements are also due for reconstruction. The Penn Station reconstruction is also due. The only change to those plans would be relocating MSG and PABT, which, I think, would be a great plan.
im sorry - but that plan makes no sense whatsoever. the point of taking a bus into port authority is that you'll be in manhattan. who would want to take a bus to somewhere in jersey and then transfer to a train? i wouldnt and im sure most commuters weren't either.
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Old January 14th, 2016, 03:59 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikezippo View Post
FAQs About the NYS Eminent Domain Procedure Law

Q: What is 'eminent domain'?

A: It is another word for condemnation - the right of the government to take private property for a public purpose. Various examples would be to make way for a road or public park, or to provide housing for disadvantaged persons. The United States and New York Constitutions require the government to pay you fair compensation if it takes your property.

Q: What is fair market value or just compensation?

A: Just compensation is usually considered to be the fair market value - that is, the highest price somebody would pay for the property, were it in the hands of a willing seller. The date upon which the value is assessed will vary, depending upon the governing law. If the parties do not agree on the value, they will typically utilize appraisers to assist in the negotiation process. If the case is litigated, both sides will ordinarily present expert testimony from appraisers as to the fair market value of the property.

so you're going to tell me that the building itself isn't worth over a billion (it just got reconstructed for that much) and the rest of the land isnt worth much? plus you know the dolans would negotiate to have the city kick in to build a new garden. so yes, $5billion.
The fact that the Dolans were stupid enough to spend billions on MSG doesn't mean its worth billions in an eminent domain procedure.
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Old January 14th, 2016, 04:16 AM   #57
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im sorry - but that plan makes no sense whatsoever. the point of taking a bus into port authority is that you'll be in manhattan. who would want to take a bus to somewhere in jersey and then transfer to a train? i wouldnt and im sure most commuters weren't either.
People are transferring from bus to train anyway at PABT now, they're taking the bus in and then taking the subway to elsewhere in the city, as the area around the PABT doesn't have the high concentration of jobs that East Midtown or the Financial District has.

I just don't see much of a difference between taking a bus into PABT and say transferring to the ACE to get to your office on Wall St, vs taking a bus into a new PABT in NJ, taking a train to the current site of the PABT (which means no traffic heading into one of the most congested urban cores in the world - Manhattan), and then transferring to the ACE.

Plus, the current PABT handles 8000 buses a day, so if you build a tunnel you'd be getting literally thousands of buses a day off the streets of again, one of the most congested urban centers in the world. Moving the complex to NJ seems like a slam dunk idea.
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Old January 14th, 2016, 05:15 AM   #58
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im sorry - but that plan makes no sense whatsoever. the point of taking a bus into port authority is that you'll be in manhattan. who would want to take a bus to somewhere in jersey and then transfer to a train? i wouldnt and im sure most commuters weren't either.
But, the reason you're on a bus is because you don't have access to a Midtown train line. If the bus dropped you off at a train station, wallah, access! And for other Bergen county residents closer to rail lines, the train can be made more palatable with a one seat ride.

The Lincoln Tunnel is at capacity. The streets surrounding PABT are at capacity. PABT is at capacity. The only logical solution to the capacity issues is constructing PABT outside of the capacity-limited infrastructure of Manhattan, and shuttling the bus patrons into Manhattan by rail (arguably, with better points of access once you're there). It would be cheaper to build in NJ, and it would allow for future service expansion. Reconstructing PABT does nothing to solve the Lincoln tunnel capacity issues. You can only shoehorn so many busses through it.
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Old January 14th, 2016, 04:18 PM   #59
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Even people might not like MSG's architecture, it's definitely the most famous indoor arena of the world. I've always found its Midtown location, within skyscrapers "cool".
Why not build a new, bigger MSG and new Penn station?
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Old January 14th, 2016, 06:58 PM   #60
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The fact that the Dolans were stupid enough to spend billions on MSG doesn't mean its worth billions in an eminent domain procedure.
In eminent domain law there is a concept known as "trade fixtures", which is usually defined as anything essential to the operation of the business utilizing the property being taken that is bolted to the floor (or otherwise can't be moved). Also, it's an all-or-nothing thing. If one thing is a trade fixture, than everything is. So, if the taking is ruled a trade fixture case, the municipality doing the taking is on the hook for every trade fixture in the building. What this means is that if the City/State/County/etc. wants to take MSG they are going to have to pay for every seat, every TV (including the big, custom ones in the scoreboard), every piece of furniture in the luxury boxes, every seat in the stands, the backboards, every deep fryer in the concession stands, the hockey nets, and every light hanging in the arena. If it's in MSG, they'll have to pay for it. Now remember, everything isn't worth what the Dolans could or should of spent, but what the fixture is actually worth. No matter how stupidly they spent their money.

Also, here's the thing about trade fixture cases. They can take a loooooong time. Some even take decades. Considering how much stuff is in MSG, a long trial is very probable. Which means whoever is doing the taking has to pay lawyers to litigate the whole mess for how ever long it takes. Plus, they are on the hook for interest starting at the date of the taking to the end of the entire trial. There's also the danger that if the Dolans take them to court and get a "significant" (as ruled by the judge) amount over what the initial offer is, they're on the hook for the Dolan's lawyers, and the Dolans will hire VERY expensive lawyers.

There is also the legal principle of "highest and best use", which means they have to pay for the land for its most financially productive use, not what it's currently used for. What's several acres of land in Midtown Manhattan, sitting on top of the terminal for 2 commuter lines and stations for 3 subway lines worth? Considering the land is probably zoned for a pretty big building, I'm guessing a lot.

My point being is that if MSG gets taken in eminent domain, billions is a pretty good estimate of what it will cost.
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