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Old January 14th, 2016, 08:29 PM   #61
Riley1066
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenfromJersey View Post
My point being is that if MSG gets taken in eminent domain, billions is a pretty good estimate of what it will cost.
It would certainly cost less than buying it ... and additionally, if the City refuses to extend the Dolans Lease on MSG, he would have even less of a say in how much MSG is worth in the first place.

Its time to pull the bandaid off fast and hard on MSG and tell them to find other arrangements NOW.

Transit needs should trump entertainment needs.
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Old January 14th, 2016, 09:16 PM   #62
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It would certainly cost less than buying it ... and additionally, if the City refuses to extend the Dolans Lease on MSG, he would have even less of a say in how much MSG is worth in the first place.

Its time to pull the bandaid off fast and hard on MSG and tell them to find other arrangements NOW.

Transit needs should trump entertainment needs.
It would cost exactly what it would to buy it, that's what "just compensation" means. The only difference is that if they sold it, the owners would be able to keep most of the stuff in it if they so desired, which would be reflected in the price. The idea of not extending the lease wouldn't work as "highest and best use" would presume whoever owned MSG would have the right to use it.

Also, what ever issues one has with MSG, in a city where most people rely on mass transit, a train station is the best place for an arena. Any other location would be more difficult to get to.
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Old January 15th, 2016, 02:45 AM   #63
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Basically, the current MSG needs to go. So, offer the Dolan's a trade in their favor. Government (on behalf of the people) made this mistake, and government (always at the expense of the people) will pay for it dearly. But, it needs to happen.

Whether it's my plan (move PABT to NJ, move MSG to PABT land), another person's plan (move MSG over Javits) or even rebuild the current MSG so it's high, high above Penn Station... SOMETHING needs to happen.
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Old January 15th, 2016, 03:30 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Riley1066 View Post
Cuomo Reveals Renderings For Dramatic Penn Station Overhaul
BY EMMA WHITFORD IN NEWS ON JAN 6, 2016 5:25 PM
Nice.
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Old January 15th, 2016, 04:42 AM   #65
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Nice.
Did you really had to quote the whole post? annoying...
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Old January 15th, 2016, 07:03 AM   #66
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Penn Station should remain the way it is so as to serve as a monument to bad civic planning. NYC used to have a nice train station, but they tore it down, so now they should be stuck with the mess they made.
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Old January 15th, 2016, 11:33 AM   #67
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MSG is pretty cool by international standard. It's a pity that it replaced what could have been a national monument.
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Old January 18th, 2016, 09:36 AM   #68
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I read other threads about reconstructing buildings in Europe destroyed in World Wars. The old Penn/Station was magnificent and I am sure if it still stood it would be revered as Grand Central. Couldn't a staged reconstruction of major sections of the Original Station be rebuilt with modern requirements morphed into the design. I expect cost would be a hurdle and the western world rarely wants to recreate lost buildings. I try and wonder how I would accept the remains of the Roman Colosseum returned to a completed structure. Fake ? yet so many later European buildings have returned and after a few years the population forgets they were gone and accept them as the originals...The campanile in St Marks Square Venice is a good example.
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Old January 19th, 2016, 03:22 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenfromJersey View Post
Penn Station should remain the way it is so as to serve as a monument to bad civic planning. NYC used to have a nice train station, but they tore it down, so now they should be stuck with the mess they made.
What a dumb idea! NY'ers of today and tomorrow should not have to suffer for the pasts mistakes of some heinous idiots who were shortsighted in believing the train was finished. You must know that the current Penn Station is a RAT HOLE and it's hell for intercity and commuter pax. The current plan is alright and it will make the experience somewhat tolerable although not world class. They were never going to rebuild the old station, it's NY, not Berlin. History doesn't count as much as profit. I would have preferred the garden to be demolished. But, of course, NY always takes half measures when it comes to infrastructure and it can't compare with other major world cities in this regard. Look at the air-train to JFK (two seat ride = half measure), and the SAS (only 3 stops planned and no money for the rest right now). Terrible!

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Old January 20th, 2016, 04:09 PM   #70
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...Germans rebuild to avert the weight of history;i trully love Dresden and Berlin but sometimes faux old is really tacky and artificial.
New York's history is in the making on a daily basis but is reinventing itself like no other city in the world.
Your disdain and bitterness are just ludicrous:YES New York is the city of profit and OF COURSE profit is more important than history!
History doesn't feed your family and thousands of european people(a lot of french)arrive monthly in Big Apple escaping their glorious "paradise"to get a piece of the American Dream.
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Old January 20th, 2016, 06:44 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by JohnDee View Post
What a dumb idea! NY'ers of today and tomorrow should not have to suffer for the pasts mistakes of some heinous idiots who were shortsighted in believing the train was finished. You must know that the current Penn Station is a RAT HOLE and it's hell for intercity and commuter pax. The current plan is alright and it will make the experience somewhat tolerable although not world class. They were never going to rebuild the old station, it's NY, not Berlin. History doesn't count as much as profit. I would have preferred the garden to be demolished. But, of course, NY always takes half measures when it comes to infrastructure and it can't compare with other major world cities in this regard. Look at the air-train to JFK (two seat ride = half measure), and the SAS (only 3 stops planned and no money for the rest right now). Terrible!
Because demolishing the old Penn Station wasn't just a bad idea, it was an idea so bad it caused a change in policy. After that beautiful building was razed, the people of NYC started passing laws to protect historic buildings. There are even entire historic districts in where nothing can be torn down or modified without going through a huge legal process (if at al). Of course, real estate developers hate those laws. They're constantly telling us how we could have affordable housing in Manhattan if only they could tear down the historic buildings and districts in NY. By allowing NYC to fix its mistake, you make tearing down historic buildings seem like not that bad an idea. But it is a bad idea and Penn Station is a great example of why.

The current Penn Station exists as a reminder of (not to mention the reason) why we have historic preservation laws. There should be pictures and models of the old Penn Station showing what was removed to make way for the dingy maze of dreck that visitors to NY are now dealing with. Put me in charge of renovating Penn Station and all I would do would be to put in a museum for the old Penn Station with a big sign reading "THIS IS WHY WE HAVE LAWS PROTECTING HISTORIC BUILDINGS IN NY".
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Old January 21st, 2016, 04:53 AM   #72
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Well, I'd get excited about this, but we've seen many plans and things for such a station go nowhere. Wasn't there a thread here for a huge overhaul that had like 5 different proposals? The cost was supposed to be in the 10s of billions. Not to mention I think anything short of a spectacular complex built here does not pay homage to the original Penn Station. Sort of like what happened to the Freedom Tower (IMO).

Quote:
Originally Posted by NYCityBoy View Post
Keeping Madison Square Garden and removing the Paramount Theater to allow more light and a grander entrance to Penn is the best compromise--by far!

I've been pro relocating the Garden for a long time but can be happy with keeping it in it's place if we can:
A. Rework the 8th Avenue side
B. Completely redesign the exterior.

The Dolan Family was crazy to spend so much money renovating the interior and not touching the exterior. A redesign of the exterior of the Garden and neighboring office tower should be a mandatory part of the master plan.
Spending all that $$$ might have sealed this place's fate.

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Old January 24th, 2016, 08:09 AM   #73
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Some more renderings of the proposed Moynihan Station

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Old January 25th, 2016, 07:02 PM   #74
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..Pretty bad design:they should hire Foster as he is very good for that concept(Berlin's Reichtag,British museum..)

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Old February 2nd, 2016, 10:23 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by scrapesalot View Post
another person's plan (move MSG over Javits)
Bad idea. Javits needs to go as well. It is not up to par for what it is designed for (convention center). It is very small for a city like NY. They should just demolish Javits and sell that land to the Hudson yards developers and build a much bigger convention center in Queens.

The problem with all of these structures (MSG, PABT, and Javits) is that they are in Manhattan and there is simply not enough space to put world class large scale facilities there.
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Old February 3rd, 2016, 02:41 AM   #76
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^ I can't imagine the Javits isn't at least in the process of getting moved within the next 10 years. The city/state own the land it sits on, and they just won't be able to resist selling/leasing it. It's a no brainer way of funding the 10th Ave stop on the 7 train.
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Old February 3rd, 2016, 05:38 AM   #77
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They just announced a huge expansion of Javitz so it doesn't look like it's going anywhere anytime soon.
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Old February 5th, 2016, 01:09 AM   #78
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I will be doing an overview of Penn Station New York...concourses , track level , outside...so everyone can see how terrible it truly is... I'll do it sometime over the next 2 weeks...
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Old February 9th, 2016, 04:17 AM   #79
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New NEC Alternatives for NYC-Newark

Alternative 1

-New Jersey

Two new tracks in one or two tunnels, beginning on embankment east of Secaucus Station adjacent to the existing NEC and continues east in tunnel west of U.S. Routes 1 & 9. The new segment continues in tunnel under the New Jersey Palisades and the Hudson River.

-New York

Two new tracks in one or two tunnels continue from New Jersey at the Hudson River and terminate under 31st Street, south of Penn Station New York (Figure 4-12).

Figure 4-12 : Alternative 1 (Existing NEC and New Segment through New York City Metropolitan Area)

Source: NEC FUTURE team, 2015
Background Image Source: Microsoft Bing Maps, Accessed July 2015

Alternative 2


-New Jersey
  • New, two-track infrastructure in central and northern New Jersey, beginning in North Brunswick, Middlesex County and continuing generally at-grade or on embankment adjacent to the existing NEC through central Middlesex County. The segment is in tunnel under the Raritan River through New Brunswick and Highland Park, and short tunnel segments near Metuchen in Middlesex County, Elizabeth in Union County, and Newark in Essex County. The new segment reconnects with the existing NEC in Kearney, Hudson County west of the Passaic River.
  • New third and fourth Hudson River tunnels, beginning on embankment east of Secaucus Rail Station, adjacent to the existing NEC, continuing east in tunnel west of U.S. Routes 1 & 9, adjacent to the existing NEC, under the New Jersey Palisades and Hudson River, terminating south of the existing NEC and Penn Station New York, under West 31st Street (Figure 4-16).

Figure 4-16 : Alternative 2 (Existing NEC and New Segment through New York City Metropolitan Area)

Source: NEC FUTURE team, 2015
Background Image Source: Microsoft Bing Maps, Accessed July 2015


-New York
  • New fifth and sixth East River Tunnels, beginning at Penn Station New York in Midtown Manhattan, and continuing east under the East River south of the existing NEC through Woodside, Queens. The tunnels rise to an aerial structure, connecting with the Hell Gate Viaduct in Astoria, Queens (Figure 4-16).
  • The existing NEC in Bronx County, near I-895 and I-95, shifts approximately 500 feet at the widest point from its current location on the east side of the Bronx River.
  • The existing NEC shifts approximately 300 feet at the widest point from its current location in Bronx County, near Pelham Bay Park. The improvement includes a new crossing over the Hutchinson River (Pelham Bay).
  • The existing NEC shifts approximately 150 feet at its widest point from its current location near New Rochelle rail Station.
  • New, two-track infrastructure, beginning west of the New Rochelle Rail Station and continuing at-grade or on embankment parallel to the existing NEC to Rye in eastern Westchester County, into Fairfield County, CT.

Alternative 3

-New Jersey

Alternative 3 is typically at-grade or on embankment adjacent to the existing NEC from Trenton Station north through rural sections of northern Mercer County and southern Middlesex County. The alternative is in tunnel under the Raritan River through New Brunswick. Proceeding north, the route shifts from the existing NEC and is in short tunnel segments near Metuchen in Middlesex County, Elizabeth in Union County, and Newark in Essex County. Alternative 3 is above grade across Hackensack River, shifting south of the existing NEC in tunnel east of the Hackensack River and continuing through Jersey City, Union City, and Hoboken in Hudson County.

-New York

Alternative 3 includes six tracks under the Hudson River: two existing tunnels (North River Tunnels), two new tracks in one or two tunnels as described in Alternative 1, and two new tracks in one or two tunnels in Alternative 3 (Figure 4-19). The alternative continues in tunnel east under Midtown Manhattan entering Penn Station New York.

Figure 4-19 : Alternative 3 (Existing NEC and New Segments through New York City Metropolitan Area)


-New York (via Central Connecticut)

East of Penn Station New York, the six-track configuration for Alternative 3 continues east under the East River (four existing East River tunnels and two new tracks in one or two tunnels under the East River), and continues in tunnel south of the existing NEC through Woodside Queens, where the two tracks rise to connect with the Hell Gate Viaduct in Astoria. At Third Avenue, two tracks in one or two tunnels split from the six-track railroad headed east, continuing north along the east side of Manhattan in tunnel(s) under the East River, Wards Island, and Randall's Island, continuing at-grade near the Bruckner and Sheridan Expressways in Bronx County at which point the two new tracks join and continue parallel to the existing NEC, generally at-grade or on embankment through Pelham Bay Park, entering Westchester County along the Long Island Sound.

In Mamaroneck, Westchester County, Alternative 3 veers north of the existing NEC near Mamaroneck Avenue and continues north primarily in tunnel or aerial structure through Scarsdale and White Plains, where the new White Plains East station is proposed. Alternative 3 continues northwest, adjacent to Westchester County Airport in Harrison, crossing into Connecticut for a short distance before reentering Westchester County and continuing north through northern Westchester County and southern Putnam County parallel to I-684 in tunnel, on embankment or aerial structure. Alternative 3 crosses the Connecticut state line again north of I-84.

-New York City (via Long Island)

Alternative 3 continues east in six tracks under the East River (four existing East River tunnels and two new tracks in one or two tunnels under the East River), and continues in tunnel south of the existing NEC through Woodside Queens. At Woodside, the Representative Route splits into two; one segment rising to connect with the Hell Gate Viaduct in Astoria Queens. The other segment continues as Alternative 3, diverging south in one or two tunnels and continues south and east through Queens County, near the LIRR Montauk Branch. Alternative 3 continues on aerial structure or embankment east from I-678 to Floral Park in Nassau County, east of the Cross Island Parkway.

The alternative shifts in tunnel south adjacent to the LIRR Hempstead Branch, continuing east in trench through Garden City. Alternative 3 continues in trench east parallel to Stewart Avenue, through Eisenhower Park and the village of Levittown. The alternative continues in trench east, reconnecting with the LIRR Main Line in Farmingdale, and continues east, crossing in the Suffolk County, adjacent to the Main Line through Wyandanch, Brentwood, and Ronkonkoma. Alternative 3 shifts north near Long Island MacArthur Airport, crossing I-495 in tunnel and continuing typically on embankment or aerial structure north to Stony Brook. Alternative 3 transitions to trench and then into tunnel near Port Jefferson where the alternative continues across the Long Island Sound in tunnel, emerging in New Haven County, Connecticut.
Read more about various NEC Proposals here :
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Old February 9th, 2016, 04:51 AM   #80
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Bad idea. Javits needs to go as well. It is not up to par for what it is designed for (convention center). It is very small for a city like NY. They should just demolish Javits and sell that land to the Hudson yards developers and build a much bigger convention center in Queens.

The problem with all of these structures (MSG, PABT, and Javits) is that they are in Manhattan and there is simply not enough space to put world class large scale facilities there.
Javits is as big as any Convention center needs to be. That Queens idea would have gotten Cuomo in so much legal trouble anyway.

People coming to NY for Conventions don't want to be shunted off to Queens anyway. They want Manhattan. Javits is in Manhattan.
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