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Old April 30th, 2016, 06:50 PM   #41
k.k.jetcar
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Being curious about the signaling system on this line, I turned up this info:
http://www.rtd-fastracks.com/ep3_149

http://www.rtd-fastracks.com/media/u...2016_FINAL.pdf

The system, provided by Wabtec, is called I-ETMS. In this case, since the rail line is new, rather than being an overlay system, it's installed as a cab signal system.

Though this is an old video, and deals with freight railroad BNSF version of ETMS, which is an overlay application to the existing lineside signals, it does show the brake pattern and the in-cab display with audible warnings.
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Old May 1st, 2016, 10:47 PM   #42
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So this line will have a headway of 15 min (on and off rush hour), right? Sounds okish for intra urban transport and perfectly fine for the airport link.
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Old May 3rd, 2016, 09:52 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 00Zy99 View Post
It tells me that trains in general have been getting heavier.

If there has been a significant increase in weight due to safety restrictions that are recently added, then those safety restrictions have a cogent reason. New safety systems have a purpose-the people responsible don't do this on a whim.

I have ridden both RDCs and Silverliner Vs. The former feels outright flimsy in some ways in comparison to the latter (though the car shell is absurdly resistant to weathering it doesn't exactly stand up well to impacts). The Silverliner V has better sound insulation, better seats, better doors (power doors weigh more than manual doors on the RDC), better crush-proofing, better acceleration, better braking.

Let's compare two automobiles from the same market segment and from the same company roughly contemporary in design to the two railcars:

1948 Mercury Eight: 3,400 lbs

2010 Ford Taurus: 4,015 lbs

So, things in general can get heavier over time due to added features and improved performance. It happens. Some of these improve safety, some improve other things.
Sorry, but the numbers just do not back you up. Let's consider axle loads on like equipment (i.e. single-level standard or Russian gauge EMUs). What this means is that we calculate:
weight of unit
------------
# of axles
North American Equipment

- The Silverliner V weighs 66,500 kg over four axles, or 16,625 kg/axl
- The MTA M8 weighs 44,297 kg over four axles, or 11,074.25 kg/axl
- This yields an average axle load of 13,849.625 kg/axl
- Note also the paucity of examples we can use.

Other equipment

- The Stadler FLIRT weighs 76,204 kg (in its lightest configuration) over seven (UIC config: Bo'2'2'2'Bo') axles, or ~10,886.286 kg/axl
- The BR Class 444 (Siemens Desiro) weighs 227 tonnes per 5 car trainset, or 45,400 kg per four-axle car, for an axle load of 11,350 kg/axl
- The BR Class 377 (Electrostar) weighs 173.6 tonnes per 4 car trainset, or 43,400 kg per four-axle car, for 10,850 kg/axl
- The NSB Class 72 weighs 40,500 kg over four axles, for 10,125 kg/axl
- The New South Wales OSCAR fleet weighs 46,000 kg over four axles, for 12,500 kg/axl

...and on and on and on...

On average, the global standard seems to be ~11,142.257 kg/axl. This is, on average, only 80% of the weight of comparable American equipment. Note, too, that all of this equipment is new; the oldest example I cite is 20 years old. And this is all equipment that is safely run day in and day out.

Note also the exceptional weight difference between the American Silverliner V and the Australian OSCAR. There is no reason whatsoever for this to exist -- the U.S. and Australia have comparable operating conditions -- outside of the idea that heavier equipment is somehow safer, which has proven to be bullshit time and again (the biggest safety issue is telescoping, and ironically heavier equipment is more prone to telescoping. Crumple zones are far safer features).
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Old May 3rd, 2016, 09:04 PM   #44
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I'll admit that the Silverliner V is not the best equipment in the world, but then again it is from a new manufacturer (see all of the delays with delivery) and therefore can be excused for being atypically overweight.

However, Sydney Trains Waratah, or A-Set, is 50,548 kg per car. And Transperth's A Stock (which is Cape Gauge) is 47,216 kg per car.

Finally, Russia's ED4 series ranges from 41.05 tons to 57.75 tons (depending on individual model).
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Old May 11th, 2016, 07:56 AM   #45
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B Line from Denver to Westminster, CO opens 2016.07.25

http://www.rtd-fastracks.com/nw_84
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Old May 11th, 2016, 08:50 AM   #46
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Line B is a Joke of a line , a stub at only 6.2 miles with one station. They should have waited till they received funding to build out to Longmont...
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Old May 11th, 2016, 05:43 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexis View Post
Line B is a Joke of a line , a stub at only 6.2 miles with one station. They should have waited till they received funding to build out to Longmont...
Not the biggest joke in the country:

Quote:
The West Hempstead branch serves West Hempstead, Hempstead Gardens, Lakeview, Malverne and Westwood, a distance of 4.6 miles. It is used by 3,000 riders each weekday.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/08/ny...jaws.html?_r=0

Is it better to have something small or nothing at all?
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Old May 11th, 2016, 07:30 PM   #48
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But this is a new line and that is an old line... New lines that run into the suburbs should long with many stops to attract new riders..
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Old May 25th, 2016, 02:56 AM   #49
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They all got stuck 50 feet above the prairie


https://twitter.com/roryals/status/735250548287524865


https://twitter.com/roryals/status/735250016428822528

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news...er-denver-fire
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Old May 25th, 2016, 04:27 AM   #50
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Well that didn't take long did it?
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Old June 10th, 2016, 09:05 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 00Zy99 View Post
I'll admit that the Silverliner V is not the best equipment in the world, but then again it is from a new manufacturer (see all of the delays with delivery) and therefore can be excused for being atypically overweight.

However, Sydney Trains Waratah, or A-Set, is 50,548 kg per car. And Transperth's A Stock (which is Cape Gauge) is 47,216 kg per car.

Finally, Russia's ED4 series ranges from 41.05 tons to 57.75 tons (depending on individual model).
Heavier axcle load is also pretty bad for track maintenance, lets not forget that. I don't know why you are defending unnecessarily high axle loads as well as heavier trainst in general than the necessarily need to be.

The US needs to get its act together on rail regulations and the manufacturers on train designs. Something like the Silverliner V just doesn't seem to be as good as trains should be today.
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Old June 10th, 2016, 09:16 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slartibartfas View Post
Heavier axcle load is also pretty bad for track maintenance, lets not forget that. I don't know why you are defending unnecessarily high axle loads as well as heavier trainst in general than the necessarily need to be.
Heavier axle load enables higher loads. This is why the US is able to carry heavier freight loads. And it makes sense to take advantage of higher available loads for passenger trains.

Quote:
The US needs to get its act together on rail regulations and the manufacturers on train designs. Something like the Silverliner V just doesn't seem to be as good as trains should be today.
I have plenty of complaints about the Silverliner V, but none of them are based on its weight. Please call me back when you have ridden them fifty times and covered the entire SEPTA network. The specific point of the Silverliner V's weight and sturdiness is to deal with running directly in and alongside VERY heavy-duty freight traffic. Experience has taught both Denver and Philadelphia the same lesson.
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Old June 12th, 2016, 12:24 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 00Zy99 View Post
I have plenty of complaints about the Silverliner V, but none of them are based on its weight. Please call me back when you have ridden them fifty times and covered the entire SEPTA network. The specific point of the Silverliner V's weight and sturdiness is to deal with running directly in and alongside VERY heavy-duty freight traffic. Experience has taught both Denver and Philadelphia the same lesson.
The wear on the track is nothing you'd be confronted with as a rider, at least if the line is maintained well. That doesn't mean that it were not a major issue and cost factor. Excessive weight and "sturdiness" are not increasing safety but decreasing it, that's what people try to tell you here the whole time. Apparently the message hasn't arrived yet. Controlled defomration is the thing you should be looking for. But you are forgiven, after all even the US authorities are failing to understand that as well.

If safety is an issue, you need to invest into a better signalling and train control system not in tanks on rail.
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Old June 12th, 2016, 02:11 AM   #54
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The weight is not as much of an issue when the same tracks are handling much heavier freight trains. The tracks are already designed to handle much heavier loads, so the passenger trains don't make much of a difference.

I am well aware of the phenomenon of controlled deformation-it is used in automobiles all the time. I am also aware of the accidents involving the ACS-64 showing very little damage to the engine.

In regards safety, Denver had a very specific incident several years ago where a freight train derailed on track that was next to the light rail line. While nobody was hurt, it was a near-miss. Because of what happened, the RTD made a specific choice to buy very sturdy rolling stock. They could have easily made the new lines light rail, but they chose not to. All of the fancy signals in the world don't mean a thing if something causes the freight train next door to decide to become more acquainted.

The crashes in Philadelphia show that building things in a rugged manner do in fact provide protection. Yes, I am aware of a recent crash in Britain where the controlled deformation approach was credited with saving lives. However, that does not mean that the American approach is somehow fatally flawed. There are energy-absorption systems built into the Silverliner V, and the improved design has been credited with saving lives after subsidence caused crashes in Connecticut.

Yes, there is a need for investment in improved signalling systems. However, that investment is currently being made. PTC is mandated for all passenger railroads in the US and a greenfield operation like Denver's almost certainly has such systems. The RTD also operates its own tracks and does not mix with freight trains directly. However, there is a considerable amount of parallel running, and while the freight railroads are making a very good effort, one cannot control what happens in a neighbor's backyard. Denver would have built light rail if it could, but it is never possible to have a 100% guarantee of safety and they are running next to the largest and heaviest freight trains in the world outside dedicated mine railways.

I have contacts at SEPTA, and I will ask the track maintenance team if they feel that there is more wear and tear. I can also ask the supervising staff about power draw and why they chose the Silverliner V.

Until you have actually lived in and experienced the local conditions, met with the staff responsible, and listened to their arguments and whether they think that a lighter vehicle would suit their needs as well, please do not go casting aspersions.

Nobody is perfect. Even despite its advanced signaling systems there are still crashes in Europe. A Eurostar derailed because of subsidence caused by World War I trenches. Just recently there was a head-on collision in Germany.
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Old July 12th, 2016, 06:31 PM   #55
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Quote:
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Are the commuter trains shut down right now?

All of the rolling stock is by Hyundai-Rotem, and very similar to the Silverliner V in Philadelphia which is currently out of service with cracked equalizers.
Apparently, the Denver cars do not have the same problem:

Billy Penn
http://billypenn.com/2016/07/06/why-...ff-the-tracks/

Quote:
Why Denver’s Silverliner V cars still run, while SEPTA pulled Philly’s off the tracks
By Danya Henninger

July 6, 2016 at 9:15 am

. . .

The Denver Regional Transportation District employs 60 Silverliner V cars. As of now, all of them are still in service, and RTD has no plans to pull them out.

“Our engineers have been carefully inspecting them since we heard about what happened in Philadelphia,” said RTD spokesperson Nate Currey.

“We have a slightly different model,” he continued, using an airline industry analogy. “It’s kind of like comparing a Boeing 737-500 to a 737-900er.”

One difference is weight: RTD’s cars are 5,000 lbs. lighter than SEPTA’s (which ended up 10,000 lbs. over-budget because of last-minute changes to meet new crashworthy standards put out by the Federal Railroad Administration).

A second distinction is in the equalizer bar itself.

“Our equalizer bars were machined flat, to prevent them from gathering water,” Currey said, “so I believe they were attached with a different style of welding.”

Additionally, there were various small changes to multiple parts of the general design to accommodate RTDs specific needs. Instead of having platforms at multiple levels like SEPTA, all of the Denver commuter rail platforms are at exactly the same height. The ultra-modern railway, which just came online this spring, was the first local transit built from the ground up to incorporate Positive Train Control — the automated system that helps avoid high-speed crashes and derailments — so that also induced some design tweaks, Currey said.

All of the above could be relevant to why Denver isn’t worried about SEPTA’s current issue.

Currey added that — “with no disrespect to SEPTA” — he was under the impression that RTD’s stress testing had been “a little more thorough.”

“From what I understand, Hyundai Rotem learned from Philly, and improved the process with us,” he said.

. . .
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Old July 14th, 2016, 09:22 AM   #56
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RTD "A" Line at Monaco & Smith Rd.

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Old July 25th, 2016, 06:10 PM   #57
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New commuter rail line B opened today, with only 2 stations in operation - Union Station and Westminster:
http://www.progressiverailroading.co...l-route--48926

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Old July 25th, 2016, 08:51 PM   #58
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What frequency?
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Old July 26th, 2016, 02:22 AM   #59
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RTD’s B Line and Westminster Station officially open (video)

WESTMINSTER, Colo. -- The much-awaited RTD B Line and Westminster Station officially opened on Monday.

The B Line connects Westminster to downtown Denver. It is an 11-minute ride covering about six miles from Westminster Station to Union Station and costs $2.60 for a one-way ticket[...]
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Old July 26th, 2016, 04:33 AM   #60
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Half-hourly at peak, hourly off-peak.
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