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Old October 10th, 2017, 01:21 AM   #41
Silly_Walks
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rheintram View Post
According to what definition? "High speed" is not exactly the sound barrier, is it?
"(new lines designed for speeds above 250 km/h and in some cases, upgraded existing lines for speeds up to 200 or even 220 km/h)"

http://uic.org/highspeed#What-is-High-Speed-Rail
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Old October 10th, 2017, 12:19 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Bobo90 View Post
I can only say that in the Netherlands we do not call the IC direct your see in the picture above a real high speed train. It is running on a high speed railway though, capable of 300kmh.
Who are we? The common people? The media? However, according to the common people in the Netherlands and the press, the TRAXX driven train which goes not faster than 160 km/h is called "hogesnelheidslijn", English: "High-Speed Railroad", see https://nos.nl/artikel/2190803-fiets...slijn-mee.html. People in the Nederlands don't say: "I will make a trip with the IC Direct", but say: "I will make a trip with the High-Speed Railroad". The media follows this behavior.
Problem is that being highspeed is not something like being supersonic, where you have to pass the sound barrier. You can check out that you went through the sound barrier and can claim you are supersonic. Being highspeed in common sense language is measured in a relative way.

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Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
Hanover-Berlin is partially new line, 250 km/h on the new section, 160 and 200 km/h on the existing sections.
Nuremberg–Munich is partially new line, 300 km/h on the new part, 160 and 200 km/h on the existing section.
Something similar as with the Dutch is happening in Germany. Germans call High-Speed Railroad "Schnellfahrstrecke". Check out that *all* line Hanover-Berlin is "Schnellfahrstrecke" in common language: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schnel...E2%80%93Berlin

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Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
NOBODY calls the 160 km/h stretches of those line "High-speed".
I agree with you that there are definitions for professionals about High-Speed Railroads as in http://uic.org/highspeed#What-is-High-Speed-Rail. But people on the street, between friends and in the media talk another language. It is like the discussion what do you call a motorway? In Germany you can go 250 km/h, while in most other countries there is a limit to 130 km/h, 120 km/h or 110 km/h.

Therefore it is to be expected that in Israel the new line Tel-Aviv-Jerusalem will also be called "High-Speed Railroad" by tourists from Germany and the Netherlands and most other people.
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Old October 10th, 2017, 02:01 PM   #43
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In Germany and most of Western Europe conventional long distance train services (IC, EC, D trains, ...) run at 160 or even at 200 km/h. Sometimes even certain regional trains reach speeds up to 160 km/h (in Austria there's a 200 km/h Regional Express for example), though usually it's only a part of the whole line that utilizes that max speed.

In Israel trains currently operate at a much lower speed, up to 120 km/h max. The new line would hypothetically allow for operations up to 200 km/h per hour, although with the available rolling stock actual services will only reach up to 160 km/h. I am not sure if the Bombardier twindexx are pressurized, which is usually a problem above 160 km/h. Anyhow, the distance is rather short (56 km) and the benefit of a 200 km/h operation (just a couple of minutes faster, taking into consideration acceleration and braking) would probably not outweigh the higher costs (both in rolling stock, electricity consumption, etc.).

In most of Europe it would most certainly not be considered high-speed. Given Israel's current network, it certainly is a huge jump forward (40 km/h plus top-speed). Hence, personally, I think calling it a high-speed line is ultimately justified.
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Old October 10th, 2017, 02:11 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolstuff View Post
Check the exact wording of that article: It states you can now bring your bike on NS trains running over the high speed line. It explicitly states that it doesn't apply to either Thalys or ICE.

I highly doubt even the most average traveller wouldn't make a distinction between a fast train over the high speed line (like IC Direct) and an actual high speed train over the high speed line (like Thalys)
Despite being suitable for 200 km/h operation I highly doubt anybody in the Netherlands would consider the Hanzelijn between Lelystand and Zwolle a high speed line.
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Something similar as with the Dutch is happening in Germany. Germans call High-Speed Railroad "Schnellfahrstrecke".
In Germany any line suitable for 200+ km/h is considered a "Schnellfahrstrecke", but also here the rolling stock is considered. If it's not a EMU/DMU in ICE livery, but a locomotive drawn train, it's not a high speed train. But for every rule there is an exception, in this case Railjets and the former Metropolitan consists.
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Old October 10th, 2017, 03:02 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by M-NL View Post
actual high speed train over the high speed line
That was the issue. Check out that in the title of the article are the words "High Speed Railroad" and that is including the rail services with 160 km/h TRAXX locomotives. So Dutch media include TRAXX trains as part of High Speed Railroad. See photo below in the article:



Now compare with the TRAXX locomotives of Israel:



Therefore we may expect most people will call the rail services with TRAXX locomotives on Tel Aviv-Jerusalem high speed trains, because they are relative the fastest trains in the country. At first, speeds will be limited to about 160 km/h, but will eventually be increased to 200+ km/h with other trains.
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Old October 10th, 2017, 06:07 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M-NL View Post
If it's not a EMU/DMU in ICE livery, but a locomotive drawn train, it's not a high speed train. But for every rule there is an exception, in this case Railjets and the former Metropolitan consists.
The first part is simply absurd. Now it's not about the train's speed anymore, now it's about the technology? The mere fact that most high-speed trains are EMUs doesn't make high-speed push-pull-trains an exception to a (unestablished) rule.
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Old October 10th, 2017, 09:27 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by coolstuff View Post
That was the issue. Check out that in the title of the article are the words "High Speed Railroad" and that is including the rail services with 160 km/h TRAXX locomotives. So Dutch media include TRAXX trains as part of High Speed Railroad. See photo below in the article:
You are confusing infrastructure with the trains that run on them.

A 160 km/h LINE is not a High-speed LINE because 300 km/h TRAINS run on them.

A 300 km/h LINE is not a regular speed LINE because a 160 km/h TRAIN happens to run on it also.


To call a 160 km/h LINE a High-speed LINE is incorrect. To call a 160km/h TRAIN a High-speed TRAIN is incorrect. It's not that difficult.


You can buy a red Ford Mondeo and CALL it a Ferrari, but that doesn't change the FACT that it is just a red Ford Mondeo. I know it's hard to admit a mistake, but this is just getting sad.
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Old October 10th, 2017, 09:52 PM   #48
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Construction status update


Drone video of electrification portals in September (Part 1). Some sections have already full portals constructed, but not ready within 2 months


Drone video of electrification portals in September (Part 2) with viaduct over the Valley of Ayalon near Latrun.


Jerusalem HaUma Yitzhak Navon Station (background) is a transport hub to light rail trams.


Arrival at central hal.


At Platform level with length 320 m. Note that in October there are still no tracks, signs or electrification.

More at: http://xnet.ynet.co.il/articles/0,73...025556,00.html.
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Old October 10th, 2017, 10:05 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
You are confusing
Friendly request to check my earlier answer. You did not answer why media are calling TRAXX powered rail services part of High Speed Line.
I gave you only one example, there are many, many more. When you don't want to reply? Fine .
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Old October 10th, 2017, 10:12 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolstuff View Post
Something similar as with the Dutch is happening in Germany. Germans call High-Speed Railroad "Schnellfahrstrecke". Check out that *all* line Hanover-Berlin is "Schnellfahrstrecke" in common language: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schnel...E2%80%93Berlin
The essential part of your source is this:

Quote:
Für den Streckenabschnitt zwischen Lehrte und Oebisfelde wurde die 1871 eröffnete Berlin-Lehrter Eisenbahn weitgehend für eine Geschwindigkeit von 200 km/h ausgebaut, der größtenteils für 250 km/h gebaute Neubauabschnitt zwischen Oebisfelde und Berlin-Spandau verläuft im Wesentlichen parallel zur hier nur noch eingleisigen Berlin-Lehrter Eisenbahn.
The bold part says that the stretch is either old but upgrated and largely capable for speeds up to 200km/h, or completely new and largely capable for speeds up to 250km/h. The key-word is largely, which means there are exceptions but it is still a HSL.

Actually "Schnellfahrstrecke" means Speed Railroad, not High-Speed Railroad. But it is used alongside Strecke für den Hochgeschwindigkeitsverkehr (HGV-Strecke)
describing any railway capable for max-speeds of at least 200km/h.

Thus, you may have exceptions in the "railway-world", but the common sense is that High-Speed Lines start with 200km/h.
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Old October 11th, 2017, 01:04 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by coolstuff View Post
Friendly request to check my earlier answer. You did not answer why media are calling TRAXX powered rail services part of High Speed Line.
I gave you only one example, there are many, many more. When you don't want to reply? Fine .
I did not answer it because I found it too profoundly silly to answer.

Here I go: nobody calls the TRAXX powered service a High-speed train. It is a regular TRAIN, running partly on a High-speed LINE.

Now let me repeat something I said before: "I know it's hard to admit a mistake, but this is just getting sad."
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Old October 11th, 2017, 10:47 AM   #52
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This entire thread is now 1/3 OT and needs some cleanup. Also can't you do this via PM?
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Old October 11th, 2017, 12:01 PM   #53
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To go 250km/h requires different equipment for line and also for train than to go 200km/h. Some studies show that for railways classical technology is proven to go up to ca 200km/h. Here is the reason why speeds under let's say 220km/h or 250km/h are not considered as high speed. It would be not very smart to install all equipment for 250km/h and run 160km/h.

If the new lines in Israel are designed for 250km/h operation then they are high speed.
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Old October 11th, 2017, 02:08 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by rheintram View Post
The first part is simply absurd. Now it's not about the train's speed anymore, now it's about the technology? The mere fact that most high-speed trains are EMUs doesn't make high-speed push-pull-trains an exception to a (unestablished) rule.
The thing is that there is no single worldwide accepted definition for what is high speed rail. For Europe check out the definitions of the EU and UIC here. Other countries can differ.

Where you draw the line is indeed arbitrary: As far as Bombardier is concerned Renfe class 102 and 130 power car are part of the TRAXX locomotive family (designated TRAXX S350AC and TRAXX S250MS).
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Old November 20th, 2017, 09:23 PM   #55
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FIRST TEST IN TUNNEL

With Minister Ardan on a tour with a loc on the new line Jerusalem - Tel Aviv. First ride inside the tunnel.

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Old November 20th, 2017, 10:24 PM   #56
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Two new videos by Alexei Boguslavsky, showing electrification progress and more:



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Old December 15th, 2017, 11:00 PM   #57
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FIRST TEST WITH ELECTRIC LOCOMOTIVE



Electric locomotive TRAXX has been tested near Latrun viaduct for low-speed trial runs on new A1 line Jerusalem - Tel Aviv.
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Old December 16th, 2017, 10:28 PM   #58
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CAN'T WAIT!!!
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Old December 27th, 2017, 03:26 PM   #59
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Israel minister plans Trump train station at Western Wall

JERUSALEM — Israel’s transportation minister is pushing ahead with a plan to dig a railway tunnel under Jerusalem’s Old City, passing near sites holy to Jews, Christians and Muslims — and ending at the Western Wall with a station named after President Donald Trump.

Yisrael Katz’s plan, currently in the initial stages, involves constructing two underground stations and excavating over 2 miles (3 kilometers) of tunnel beneath downtown Jerusalem and under the politically sensitive Old City. The project would extend Jerusalem’s soon-to-open high-speed rail line from Tel Aviv to the Western Wall, the holiest site where Jews can pray.

...

Transportation Ministry spokesman Avner Ovadia said Wednesday the project is estimated to cost more than $700 million and, if approved, would take four years to complete.

Katz’s office said the minister advanced the plan in a recent meeting with Israel Railways executives, and has fast-tracked it in the planning committees.

Katz said a high-speed rail station would allow visitors to reach “the beating heart of the Jewish people — the Western Wall and the Temple Mount.” He proposed naming the station after Trump “for his brave and historic decision to recognize Jerusalem as Israel’s capital” earlier this month.

...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...=.ecf8a373960f
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Old December 27th, 2017, 03:57 PM   #60
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Yes, why not inject a much needed infrastructure project with highly divisive politics without any need for it. That will surely ensure a grand future for Israel. It just shows how the populist right government of Israel is part of the problem rather then of a solution.
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